Live from NOLA

Kathleen Shannon 0:05
Get your business together, get yourself into what you do and see it through

Emily Thompson 0:10
being bosses hard. Lending work in life is messy. Making a dream job of your own isn't easy,

Kathleen Shannon 0:17
but getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable if you do the work. being bossed is a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. Brought to you by Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon.

Emily Thompson 0:32
Hi, I'm Emily and I on indie typography, where I help passionate entrepreneurs establish and grow their business online. By helping them build brands that attract and websites that sell. I help my clients launch their business so they can do more of what they love, and make money doing it.

Kathleen Shannon 0:50
And I'm Kathleen, I'm the CO owner of brave creative where I specialize in branding and business visioning for creative entrepreneurs who want to blend who they are with what they do narrow in on their core genius and shape their content so they can position themselves as experts to attract more dream clients.

Emily Thompson 1:09
And being bosses a podcast where we're talking shop, giving you a peek behind the scenes of what it takes to build a business, interviewing other working creatives and figuring it out as we go right there with you.

Kathleen Shannon 1:21
Check out our archives at loving boss calm.

Emily Thompson 1:24
Welcome to episode number 43. This episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting.

Unknown Speaker 1:31
Hello bosses.

Kathleen Shannon 1:37
Today we have a very special episode because we are live in New Orleans with 75 other bosses and we're going to be answering their questions quickfire style. All right, you guys, I need to talk a little bit about our sponsor fresh books. I don't need to I want to, they have been so amazing and supportive. I just don't think that we could have done it without them. They are such a huge factor in why we've been able to do what we've done and legit we would have lost a lot of money on New Orleans if they hadn't helped us out a little bit. So big thank you to fresh books, cloud accounting, I think a lot of you are already using them. And and yeah, they're good. Yesterday we talked to the CEO Mike McDermott on Skype or actually FaceTime because we had logistical issues and it was so inspiring. talking to him, I can't wait to get him on the show for a full episode that's going to have to happen. So thank you so much to fresh books, fresh books is easy to use. It's an online cloud accounting system designed specifically for creative entrepreneurs. They are there to help you run your business and make you look like a boss while doing it. Try fresh books for free today go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and select being boss in the How did you hear about us section?

Unknown Speaker 3:09
All right, so no one

Unknown Speaker 3:14
or no airline?

Unknown Speaker 3:18
No noise. We're having so much fun.

Unknown Speaker 3:22
Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 3:23
I've eaten

Emily Thompson 3:24
lots of good food or eat dinner last night apparently was pretty epic for everyone.

Unknown Speaker 3:29
I think we have to poop we have to poop right now.

Emily Thompson 3:41
There's a hard stop at noon today.

Kathleen Shannon 3:46
Because I have a psychic reading to go to and Emily has to aside from that aside.

Emily Thompson 3:56
As I review what have we done we have we started with the pool party which was really really fun. on the rooftop

Kathleen Shannon 4:03
just chill like everyone starting to get to know each other. Then we have the cocktail party that evening. What

Emily Thompson 4:10
that taking place was it was the whites, the blacks, I wanted to take those home and I thought about stealing one.

Kathleen Shannon 4:18
So it's funny because we were in a Tiki Room with 75 of us girl bosses. And there were like a couple of guys. Yeah, Lauren was like, these guys are gonna be like, Why are these girls so into each other? Um, but what was really cool the one of the more touching moments that I had at the cocktail party was a fellow boss came up to me and she's like, I've had a couple of drinks. So I just need to tell you. I'm being boss means a lot. What really excited us is that she told us that in the last seven months. She's made more money than she had in the last three years. Buying and that made me cry like Emily's like. No, but it was really sweet and like a big shout out to again fresh books for buying all of our bosses a dream and acuity scheduling also had our bosses up with a drink there. And too loud.

Unknown Speaker 5:19
edit that out boy.

Emily Thompson 5:24
All right. And then yesterday we had the masterclass which was so much fun like guys that went way better than I anticipated. Just so you know, I had a ton of fun and it was super conversational, which I loved more than anything. It was like a good Open Group conversation about all kinds of things. We talked about all kinds of things, a lot of things.

Unknown Speaker 5:45
Like what

Unknown Speaker 5:48
I don't remember

Emily Thompson 5:50
we talked about we talked about offerings and clarity of purpose. defining your roles, and then we had a good q&a session we talked about like building your team and

Unknown Speaker 6:01
a little bit about pricing.

Emily Thompson 6:03
Yep, some about pricing. It was it was really fun.

Kathleen Shannon 6:06
Yeah, it was really great. And last night we had dinner in the French Quarter we so apparently it's really hard to reserve dinner for 75 people in one place. So that was one of the logistical things that we really had to learn and that you don't think is a big deal until like you're figuring it out right and so we had dinner at five different restaurants we kind of divided and conquered and I'm had so much fun I feel like I got to talk to a lot of bosses about their struggles and their victories and a lot about like a lot is coming up around the whoo things and spirituality. I had a really good

Emily Thompson 6:47
conversation the other night about like intuition and women in business and how we're way more ball centered than men because of that,

Kathleen Shannon 6:53
right we have some boy bosses none of them are here right?

Emily Thompson 6:57
which just goes to show but no really we

Unknown Speaker 7:02
love the guys but there is something about us ladies and our intuition right

Emily Thompson 7:07
makes us better at business I think sometimes. What else

Kathleen Shannon 7:12
Um, let's see afterwards, we walked down to Frenchmen Street, which is where a lot of the locals were telling us we used to go like stay away from Bourbon Street go to Frenchmen street it was still wild and fun and full of energy. We went to the art market there was a girl there selling like these leather harnesses and I had no less than eight bosses come up to me and they're like do you see the leather harness?

Emily Thompson 7:37
I know Val and I saw it and we we almost just like waited for you. I mean it was call you come here now Yeah, I got I got some really February's and I'm gonna handle I'm gonna take home and make my house smell good. It's fun stuff.

Kathleen Shannon 7:54
Now we're doing the podcast. So I had a nightmare. But right before I woke up that we were doing our pod I know it's really boring to talk about your dreams. But I had a dream like this one's

Emily Thompson 8:06
not boring guys. It's

Kathleen Shannon 8:07
hysterical. We're doing the podcast recording underwater. And the logistics because I was really nervous about the logistics of just recording in an open room. And I hate it when we get feedback about our sound right? And we know anyway, so I was nervous about the sound here. So then doing an underwater podcast and so Emily had her best friend Mikey, come in to help us with some of the tech yesterday. We're doing an underwater podcast. I was like, Where's Mikey? And then Emily was like reading our agenda from two months ago. And I was like, that's not what we're talking about. Anyway, so I guess I had a little anxiety about I never have those kinds of dreams. I'm like, whatever. Anyway, um, so yeah, now we're doing the podcast after this. I do have a hard stop at noon because I'm going to go get a tarot card reading and a chakra reading. Good.

Emily Thompson 8:59
I look forward to hearing how that goes. You always have the best stories around that we Lucia. He's gonna come back and tell you something crazy. I can't I think

Kathleen Shannon 9:09
it's a she and I heard that she's amazing. So good. And then tonight we're doing a ghost tour.

Emily Thompson 9:15
Yes, this is the thing that I'm most excited for. As many times as I've been here, it's always on my list. I've never done it.

Kathleen Shannon 9:23
I hope we see something insane. Some of our bosses are legit. There

Emily Thompson 9:29
are fears of ghosts in this room. It is hysterical to me. Really, really funny. Do you live in those? I do a little bit. So funny story. My grandmother is one of those really crazy people who like can feel ghosts a little bit and I've never seen it firsthand. I don't really know if I believe it. But it's my grandmother Of course I believe a little bit. So I think a little Yeah. I think there's some like, retained energy in places I don't want to say I know at all what it is. But

Kathleen Shannon 10:07
yeah, yesterday in our master class we were talking about, like, Who do you want to be whenever you're 60? I want to be the grandma that makes everyone think that I believe in ghosts. Right? And I have legitimacy now because I'm old.

Emily Thompson 10:23
Yeah, I think my grandmother, on some level probably just makes it makes her a little more formidable. Like my you don't mess with my grandmother. She's like Southern badass, like, the evil eye is a real

Kathleen Shannon 10:35
thing. Real. All right, so let's get into the questions because we're not going to try and make this a two hour podcast, but it might turn into that. We got a lot of questions in our Facebook group from our Enola bosses. But if you guys have any questions on the fly for sake of editing, if you want to shoot them to us via GroupMe, I will have my phone up here. And so let's get started. First question, and I'm not going to name names because a lot of people had questions. And that way you guys can ask something, I don't know, whatever. What was your revenue, like when you hired your first team member, and how has having help affected your revenue thereafter? Perfect.

Emily Thompson 11:20
Um, I hired my first team member, or at least my current team member, I had a couple like spotty people before that just came in and helped with some small things. But I hired Corey, who was my first like, legit super legit team member at a time when my business was supporting me. So it was making enough revenue that like I was comfortable where I was, but not quite to the point where I could really monetarily justify actually having a team member, I just absolutely had to have a team member because I could not make any more money without someone there to help me make more money. And so with Cory, for example, like I web design development, how was that a place in my business where I was spending more time working on like client maintenance, so like old client stuff, and I couldn't work with new clients, because I was still taking care of all the old clients. So I was able to have him come in and and take over a lot of that like hourly, just sort of maintenance stuff that comes up after a website launches, so that I could then work on new clients, and it affected my revenue, because then he could do that stuff. And I could go get new clients, and it just snowballed from there.

Kathleen Shannon 12:40
I mean, we started hiring pretty early on. So our revenue is growing anyway, is as we were growing our team. But I will say I'm actually going to change my answer to this question a little bit and just say, because I think one of the questions is when do you know to hire? So that's kind of what I'm going to answer is we decided to hire when we're both me and my sister feeling at 125% capacity. So it's just enough where you're feeling the pain, but you can still manage it yourself. And knowing like what is 125% feel like is take some probably self awareness. All right. Someone asked how I'm liking my new hair. So about a month ago, I cut off my locks, they were down to my waist and now I have I don't know how you describe it. Like the sides of my head are shaved right top is a little bit long, who kind of like kind of poofy I mean, like good. Good boobie. I mean, like poofy, puffy, yeah, like I love it. I mean, what's not to like? All right, we got asked what is the future of being boss? Yeah,

Emily Thompson 14:02
I think it ends here guys.

Unknown Speaker 14:05
We're done.

Emily Thompson 14:06
This is our finale. No, we want to do more events. Absolutely. We've talked a little bit about maybe doing them every six months. Like spring and fall. Yeah,

Kathleen Shannon 14:21
yeah. And you know, it's funny going into this we didn't know how it was going to be we didn't know if we would like it because again, the testing change thing you just have to try things out and see if you like it or if you don't like it. Emily and I did not get into business together. We didn't even really know as a business right? Do events like we just didn't really well? That's not true. We tried doing a workshop four years ago we did

Emily Thompson 14:45
and and with no crickets.

Unknown Speaker 14:47
No one signed up and now we have a room of 75 bosses. Just goes to show

Emily Thompson 14:53
Yeah, do work. So no more events. Absolutely. And we knew that this weekend for us would Be like, the defining point of like, if this event sucked, we would never do them again. But if it went really well, then it would absolutely be something that we did. And we it's going well, it's going really well. We like it. And we've had the conversation before. Like, we have our separate businesses like we do work that we love every single day. And we have talked about being balls being the platform that we do passion projects, like a platform where we can have events and travel and do fun things where you're curating a shop with shop good, right, like is the thing like, curating some goods for that.

Kathleen Shannon 15:39
So Shaka did our totes, by the way, and, um, they did a LIKE A BOSS t shirt. If you go to my Instagram, I have a link to their page. And but also, I'll try and get them to put up a shop. Good OKC comm slash being boss page that takes you directly to that T shirt that I was wearing.

Emily Thompson 15:58
Yeah. And so I think I think being boss will evolve like, this is one of those things where we're not going into it having any idea where we're gonna be in 12 months. Like,

Kathleen Shannon 16:09
also, I think, more events. My sister and I were talking a lot about I mean, we're always talking about writing a book, and it kind of stresses me out. But right now the question is, do we write a book for braid creative or for being boss? And so I haven't talked to you about this yet. But I think we need to write a book.

Emily Thompson 16:29
Great. Let's talk about that.

Kathleen Shannon 16:33
So any book agents, if

Unknown Speaker 16:37
random, if you're listening out there

Kathleen Shannon 16:40
they are, they are listening, they have hollered at us. But I think that maybe now we can write that book, and then continuing to do the podcast, we love doing it. We would love to create something right now we have our packaged email subscriptions. But we would love to create a product that people can buy. And we're talking about what that is, we have something in the works. We just needed to get through this weekend before we could start hammering out what that is, right? I'm excited to share more, but I'm not ready yet. My computer model. Let me write me when I tell you what it is.

Emily Thompson 17:19
I'm hardly ready talking about that. So number four is why is it that everybody wants to know what to charge for their services? But no one is willing to start the conversation with actual numbers.

Unknown Speaker 17:31
I love this question. I

Emily Thompson 17:32
thought it was a bullshit question.

Unknown Speaker 17:34
So

Kathleen Shannon 17:36
I was like, les, I love this question. All right, here's the deal around I think it's really important to talk numbers and to actually say the numbers, I think, especially for women, and I, there is a little bit of a stigma around it. But I wanted to tell you guys a story. A few years ago, I was at a yoga retreat. And there was a guest or another guest at the retreat. And she was really great. And we were having really good, honest conversations about our goals and what we wanted. And I said, and I'm going to share actual numbers. I said, I want to make $120,000 a year, working just four hours a day. So I got really specific about my goal. That was a big, big number. And she was like, I would be out on the street like living like a hobo on $120,000 a year. All of a sudden, I felt really shitty about my big number and my big goal. So I want people to know that and I coach creatives, and I say What's your dream number? Like? What is your dream number salary. And just a few weeks ago, someone said, I just really my dream number is $36,000 a year, if I laughed at her or said that would have made her feel awful and legit, I think that's a good number to make. So here's the deal is that the amount of money that you need, and the amount of money that you want changes with every individual. And I think that's why it's so hard to talk about numbers and then also pricing your services, the same kind of needs and once and gut feelings will change for everyone. So I think it is a really, really personal decision and conversation. And people can be made to feel bad about it. I even know like with, with all these ecourse. I'm like teaching people how to do ecourse stuff going around. And like I made six figures in six months, like that's just not really attainable for a lot of people and I don't want anyone to feel bad about the number that they are making or that they want to make. And that said, Emily and I talked about numbers. All the time, we're in similar industries, we trust each other. And we're kind of in the same boat, I think. So it's good to talk very specific numbers. And now that we share a bank account with you, I, you know, we have to talk numbers. And even with our goals, and all of that, so I just think is really personal. And I get where you're coming from, like, no one wants to start the conversation with actual numbers. I think that's important. But I also think that it's, it changes for everyone. And I never want anyone to feel bad about how little or how much they're making.

Emily Thompson 20:32
Agreed. And my view around this question was that I do hear numbers a lot. And granted, they're usually from men. But you do hear lots of conversations about numbers. So just the idea that like, you never hear anything about numbers, I had to call bullshit a little bit. But I think the key here is, if you're not hearing people talk about numbers in your industry. You talk about the numbers, you start that conversation, and you get that ball rolling. Don't wait for everyone else, go at it and see what comes back. Because if you start talking about them, everyone else will do. And then you'll have a better gauge of what you're doing.

Kathleen Shannon 21:12
We got asked how do you discern between your intuition talking to you and your fear talking to you when making business? And of course, life decisions?

Unknown Speaker 21:23
I sleep on it.

Emily Thompson 21:26
Like that, that's like, that's my magic thing. Sleep? I shouldn't do that more. You should you should?

Unknown Speaker 21:34
Actually.

Emily Thompson 21:37
Um, no, I think, for me, it's super hard to discern. I mean, they feel very similar. But if you can, if you can sleep on it, like usually the feeling you have when you wake up when you haven't had time to get scared yet, is the gut. And for me, that's, that's how I make all my decisions. It's how I fix problems. Like, I'm one of those people that can go to sleep and wake up and have it solved. And that's how I code websites a lot of times is like if I get into a coding, like, block, and I can't figure out how to make something work, I leave it and I go to sleep and I wake up and itself. So for me sleeping on it is how I do it. I think that that gut check you do first thing in the morning before you have time to overthink things is a pretty magical place.

Kathleen Shannon 22:24
My heart just stopped because I was like, Are we recording?

Emily Thompson 22:29
This happens every episode, every single episode. And really, if it's not hurts me, like that moment where we go make sure we actually recording, it's recording, I see it.

Kathleen Shannon 22:44
It's like you know that feeling whenever you know that you've left your purse somewhere that like, you know exactly that feeling of. Um, okay, so sorry, intuition and fear. And I've learned I recently just had a failure. And everyone's like, no is a learning experience. No, it was a failure.

Emily Thompson 23:04
No, it was a learning experience.

Kathleen Shannon 23:06
I learned that from that, that I can ask myself. if this fails, was it worth trying? And I went into this project, if I had known that it was going to fail, it would not have been worth trying. Because I was doing it because I wanted the money. I like the people involved. But I was comparing it to like a one night stand. Like I've learned that I'm not very good at doing it. If I don't love someone, maybe we should edit. Sorry, Cory. Maybe we should heart out. No, don't

Emily Thompson 23:42
continue. That was funny. So

Kathleen Shannon 23:45
that's just me. If you can, you know, whatever, no judgment, but for me, and I kind of like hated that about myself. Like I wouldn't be you know, wild, whatever. And but I've learned the same thing about business. Like if I don't love it, if my heart is not in it, it's not going to be good. So this podcast, for example, whenever Emily approached me to do it if it failed, and yeah, it's worth trying, like still if it crashes and burns somehow I don't. I don't see that. But I'm saying that so it's kind of like that whole, like, what's the phrase if you love and lose, like

Unknown Speaker 24:27
here we go. Okay, okay.

Unknown Speaker 24:28
Here's what it is. It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. Yay.

Unknown Speaker 24:39
That's because I had like a room of 75 people.

Kathleen Shannon 24:42
Like mentally sending the phrase to me. Thanks, you guys. But also, I just started reading Big Magic. I'm literally like four pages in. So I think that's a really great book to read for intuition and fear and all of that. So check that out. Alright, Right. Um, what is the one thing you do when you have that I'm just going to go back to working for someone else thought to shake it off, work through it deal with it? Or do you not have those thoughts in your fifth year and beyond of doing business,

Emily Thompson 25:17
you absolutely have those thoughts, I have them all the time, all the time, at least once a week, some some email lands in my inbox or some project hits a road bump or road bump, I think and something or, or something happens, or I just wake up, and I just want to stay in bed or whatever, like, it totally still happens. And for me, it's just like a moment of pros and cons. And the pros of working from home and doing what I love and being my own boss, and working with my team, and all of those things will always greatly outweigh the pros of going back to any job ever.

Unknown Speaker 26:04
Um,

Emily Thompson 26:05
I can't think of a single job I would ever want to have even really a little bit. Um, so yes, absolutely have those feelings. And for me, it's just like, recognizing the good things that I have from doing what I love. And that even if you're just beginning, the Pros will really start outweighing the good ones. And it will always be more worth it for me to like get through the hard spots than it would be for me to give up and go work for someone else.

Kathleen Shannon 26:36
And I take a different approach. I like to follow the fantasy and see where it goes. So I want to quit my job working for myself and work for someone else. What does that look like? Literally? Am I putting together a resume? Am I putting together a portfolio and my calling? I always have this fantasy of going and working with my friends Dustin and Brian at ghosts. They're also boss fans, but like, what would it be like to go work for them. So then I imagine literally calling them on the phone or my friends at shop good. They needed a new person. I was like, I want to do that. So I have a long conversation, usually with my sister. And that's what I love about being business partners with her is that she allowed she goes there with me. And she's like, Okay, let's go there. So then it becomes actually a reality because I'm talking to my business partner about what it would be like to leave the really amazing thing we've created together. And so I follow the fantasy all the way to then working for someone and then I'm like, Okay, so then what's it like waking up and getting ready. And even that kind of sounds fun, like a nice change of pace from staying in my pajamas or whatever. And so like I'm getting up and I'm getting ready, and then I'm going to work and I look so cute. And then what's it like dealing with a client? So almost like the ideal day exercise? Like what are the conversations that you want to be having? I think about what is my ideal day working for someone else? And then usually what I'll do is I'll take pieces from that, and then bring them into my own work. So if it is getting up and looking cute and going somewhere, I just do that for myself. And also, what was I going to say about that? There was another thing I forgot. All right. Let's keep going. We got a couple of questions on the GroupMe app. And that I want to answer real quick, let's do it. What advice do you have for bosses who want to raise their average contracts from 15k to 50k,

Emily Thompson 28:37
you learn how to sell. Basically, we've had Kendrick on the show before Kendrick show just sells school and she does some one on one coaching. And I did something similar whenever I launched my indie boom projects, and you have the skills like if you are in a place where even considering raising your contract prices that much it's because you have the chops, the difference there is learning how to actually sell that to someone like that's the missing skill set there. And so learning how to sell learning how to break down your benefits and explain those to a client. That's how you make that jump.

Kathleen Shannon 29:17
And I'm going to approach this from a more energetic space, which is I think that you have to have the capacity to handle a $50,000 job. There's a lot of pressure that might come with that as far as expectations. So I would just know what you're getting into. All right. And we also got asked, Do you have any examples of sneaking in more whoo and love into your client interaction. So this conversation, I mean, we've been talking a lot about the whoo in New Orleans, and sometimes it's literally maybe just for me, a big one is whenever they make that investment With me, I kind of say a little wish for them that they will see a 10 fold return on their investment in six months. So their business will recoup that expense and then some. And that's something also that helps me deal with the anxiety of charging people money doing what I love, because we all at least I have that I know that some other people struggle with it. But that makes me feel better with that. And then also, we talked a lot about yesterday about your clarity of purpose and knowing your why. And the reason why I do what I do is because I want people to have the confidence to be who they are 100% of the time, branding and business visioning a logo design copywriting that is kind of just a surfacey back door in a way to my bigger why. So just keeping that in mind as I'm peeking them through that process really helps me just infuse the whole braid method with energy.

Emily Thompson 30:57
I agree. And I think I mean, little things like mantras for us are something that we talk about a ton, and you don't even have to call them that. But having those things in your business and just saying them often, to clients, like you don't have to tell them that you're giving them a mantra, especially like, I have some clients that I would never say the word mantra to, like I simply know better. But still telling them consistency breeds legitimacy, like telling them those sorts of things, so that they are consistently getting this stuff in their head. So they do it is really important. But also just in conversations, like I have some, you know, clients that whenever we get on coaching calls, or whatever, like we're gonna go a little woowoo. And so working that into the client interactions where it just fits and do it naturally not like with intention or purpose in terms of like, I have a plan for my Whoo. It doesn't have to be that intentional? Yeah,

Kathleen Shannon 31:52
I mean, sometimes it's just being a person, like, just be a person be who you are. And

Emily Thompson 31:57
and if it's a little woowoo, then it will be interjected.

Unknown Speaker 32:00
It's fine. Alright.

Emily Thompson 32:04
Agreed. So um, so all right, so we have recently acquired a new fantastic sponsor acuity scheduling. And we've been working on getting some of that integrated into our business. And we've recently got it set up and in detail biography to help us get some of our clients meeting scheduling pains fixed because guys, I suck at timezone. Like on this level that is so painfully embarrassing that like I hate even talking about it. But I'm more often than not, I'm a few minutes late for a phone call, because I forgot about time zones, or I simply show up an hour late or an hour early. And one of the greatest things that we've we've enjoyed in terms of trying acuity scheduling out in our business, is that they have like auto detection of time zones, and they fix it for you, which is impeccable when your brain works in the creative chaos that mine does. So acuity scheduling is helping me make my meetings on time, which is rare and fantastic. Schedule clients without sacrificing your soul sign up for a free trial of scheduling sanity at acuity scheduling.com slash being boss.

Unknown Speaker 33:27
Alright, let's get back to it. Let's

Unknown Speaker 33:28
go.

Kathleen Shannon 33:29
Haha. I'm having a business partner can feel like a second marriage? How do you both work together on the being boss? podcast? roles, disagreements? All of that. Well, we

Emily Thompson 33:45
talked about I mean, yeah, we hard conversations I want to do we do like joint blog posts about hard conversations, or like a huge podcast.

Unknown Speaker 33:56
Let's let's give specific examples of a hard conversation. We had.

Emily Thompson 34:01
I mean, roles was a big one. And we talked about this a little bit yesterday in terms of like enrols. Whenever we sat down and decided to start the podcast, it started with, I don't want to do this. You didn't want to do something else. So you weren't going to do website. I was not going to do branding. I was not going to pick out the music. That was not going to be something that I was not going to be editing the podcast, right. So we had we had conversations about what we were not going to do and that turned into what was left. We divided it up. And that became our roles. So it was a conversation that we had about what we didn't want to do and it turned into what we were going to do to make this work.

Kathleen Shannon 34:42
I had also been working with me for a few years and professionally. So because our businesses were

Emily Thompson 34:51
complimentary,

Kathleen Shannon 34:52
yeah, complimentary. And because we worked on a lot of the same clients, we kind of already had a shorthand of what our style was. Like, we knew that we were really aligned and a lot of our points of views, but then I think had enough differences that it would make for an interesting conversation. And so I mean, and even now, like, if there's disagreements, like most recently, we

Unknown Speaker 35:20
right? Oh, wow.

Kathleen Shannon 35:22
I mean, well, what were you gonna say? Well, I mean, it wasn't a disagreement, but it was kind of an awkward conversation around money. Yeah. And basically reimbursing our teams. Okay, so like we pay for. Okay, so just to give you a little background on how being bosses set up? Well, this goes into another question. Anyway, so this kind of answers another question. But Emily, and I started being boss, with no intention of it being anything more than a side hustle. I mean, we weren't like, let's make a ton of money. We just really wanted to have another platform for sharing. We didn't start an LLC. We didn't have an operating agreement. We didn't have

Emily Thompson 36:04
any of those things have a revenue model, like it was just like, we're going to record you're going to edit, we're going to post it, then we'll do it next week to

Kathleen Shannon 36:13
write basically, so and so then once we started making revenue, it was a little awkward, because we didn't anticipate having conversations around that. Right money. We said I said early that early. So and so we so braid creative is half owner of being boss, and in the shop. orography is half owner of being boss. So it's actually not Emily and Kathleen. It's Emily and David, her partner, and Kathleen and Tara. So it which is my sister and business partner. A lot of people don't know that. But that's how it really works behind the scenes to so then that was a conversation alone, like, Is it just Emily and Kathleen? Or is it our businesses. And that was a conversation we had to have now with four personalities. And then we recently had a conversation because Emily's team is doing the editing. And Chris is doing a lot of coordinating this and emailing. And Caitlin is doing show notes and all sorts of stuff. So our individual teams are paying our people. So then recently, we were like, well, maybe we should reimburse for the time spent right on being boss. And Emily's was a little bit higher, because she has more people on her team working on the show than I do online. And so I was like, wow, but it feels like a big difference. And so I literally called up David, and just had a conversation with him. I was like, Hey, I'm just gut checking this and I just want to talk to you about it out loud. One that was nice, because I wasn't having to talk directly to him. I love that.

Emily Thompson 37:44
By the way, whenever you call him and I saw your name, I was like, just go here and talk. Just the fact that it didn't have to go through me like yeah, it was a conversation that was because we are all it's four of us. Yeah. And because you were so okay with just going David and talking about it and not having to go through me.

Kathleen Shannon 38:02
So but then also we've had Tara and David have conversation so that Emily and I can focus on just our feel good feelings, and they can worry about the money. So

Unknown Speaker 38:14
they can worry about how to manage all the money.

Kathleen Shannon 38:18
good problem to have. So anyway, um, we do have disagreements, I think it's because we establish talking early and often about the things that we like and don't like,

Emily Thompson 38:30
even disagreements like it's it's just things we haven't talked about yet. Like, there there are huge. It's not like we talk about things. And we're like, man, I just agree. It's just there are things that at some point, we need to come together and discuss. And then they're fine.

Kathleen Shannon 38:44
Like, like, even this morning, Emily was like, I think that we should not have a two hour podcast. And I was like, well, let's just do a quick fire style. Okay,

Emily Thompson 38:53
it's just a conversation. Yeah. All right. Anyway, um, we talk, we communicate, we set boundaries and expectations with you. It works and we do it.

Kathleen Shannon 39:02
Oh, but yeah, but having business partners is like a marriage. So like, I have to basically want to make out with Emily after recording this to make it work.

Unknown Speaker 39:15
Thanks. I'm glad I know that now.

Kathleen Shannon 39:17
I don't, I don't really want to geek out with you.

Emily Thompson 39:21
Right, let's see. And then I do make out with David.

Kathleen Shannon 39:26
I don't make out with my sister either. But I often think like even especially with braid, it would be really hard not being sisters being in business together especially with like splitting things like being boss. It brings up I mean, there are lots and lots of conversations around it.

Emily Thompson 39:46
Well, and I think a huge point there is because we all do have relationships that started so much earlier. I mean, you guys are sisters, which means you've known each other forever. David and I have been together more or less The past like 13 years, you and I were friends for years before this. So like we have these relationships that are really firm foundations like we have these like periods of dating. Yeah. Before we get in bed together and and I think that makes it all much easier. Like I think the dynamic would be different and maybe more difficult if we hadn't had those relationships first.

Kathleen Shannon 40:29
Yeah. Okay. All right. And as a fairly whoo woman attached to a mega not whoo guy. How do you deal with that?

Unknown Speaker 40:40
Do you want me to go first?

Emily Thompson 40:41
No. Okay, okay. Okay, so, um, David. David is not a weird guy, by any means. And as I get older, I'm definitely becoming much, much more Whoo. But it started rubbing off on him, which is hysterical to me. So, what the way I think about this, if you are Whoo, it's who you are. And if they love you, they love your Whoo. And if they're not going to love your Whoo, they can go.

Unknown Speaker 41:11
Basically,

Emily Thompson 41:11
um, but I mean, I think it's just like interjecting it into just regular conversations. Like, for me, it's just like, being who I am. And sometimes I'll talk about like, David, I don't know, the energy in this room is kind of weird. And he just like, okay, Emily, and it's not it's not a thing, but sometimes he's like, Oh, are you okay? Do we need to go like, it's definitely it's grown into an understanding of who I am. And it either takes time or a hard conversation.

Kathleen Shannon 41:44
I found that the more secure I am in my spirituality, and Whoo, like the the confidence that I have around it is unapologetic. But also I'm, so I'm incredibly spiritual. Like, I believe in all the things except for the devil. I don't believe in that, despite my little wearing. Um, but my, my husband, I hope he's okay with me talking about this, but he's an atheist, and he doesn't believe in anything. And he's really confident in that. And so we're both just so confident in what we believe. And we believe in each other's truth. It's fine. And there was one day I was having a little bit of a meltdown, around the topic of not sleeping, and I was crying, and my husband were texting back and forth. And he was like, have you tried meditating? Like, you know, just, it's, I don't believe in that shit anymore. He was like, I'm coming home right now. So it wasn't like he was like, Yes, finally, you're on my team. He was like, I'm coming home because he recognizes that my truth does involve meditation and the universe and all the things. He's really cool and sweet with me like on a full moon, he's like, have you set your crystals out to be charged? You know, so like, just

Emily Thompson 43:14
does he put that in his eye Gao, like,

Kathleen Shannon 43:17
in his eye on it? So I mean, I but I'm with you, like, if, if a guy's not cool with it, or your partner's not cool with it, or let me just say like, either one, you need to get more secure and confident around your spirituality and what you believe so that you're not projecting that they have an issue with it? Or if they really do have an issue with it break up with them. Like, no, seriously yellow

Emily Thompson 43:42
I completely agree with that. I mean, that's one of those things of just simply being accepted for who you are. And if that's part of who you are, and they're not going to accept that they need to go

Kathleen Shannon 43:51
I mean, we're not here to give relationship advice,

Emily Thompson 43:55
but I couldn't wait

Kathleen Shannon 43:58
if you're not into it if things are not good, if the sex is awful just break up there are a lot of people in the world and my husband like anytime we have like a little bit of a valley and our marriage he's like this is it we're gonna break up because I'm so this way like just break up. So that said we've had some valleys and we've come back up on the high side and that's actually been really cool like to actually see it through a little bit and to know that there is like this in a relationship sometimes, but it's not like this. Okay, I'm making big hand motions of like balance. It's not It's not like you know, way lows or constantly low but he could be here. No, just break up.

Unknown Speaker 45:01
And next,

Kathleen Shannon 45:02
all right, sorry.

Unknown Speaker 45:05
Sorry that and I feel this is the stuff that I get vulnerability hangovers about on the podcast. Like I'm like I should not have said, Maybe she'll text me later. I take that out. But now I have 75 witnesses to me saying just lay down.

Emily Thompson 45:21
All right. All right, I'd like to know what efforts you do to keep your teams happy, motivated and doing the best work they can do. Even though it isn't their company, where do you find inspiration to inspire your team when you're completely stressed and to whom you delegate the most work?

Kathleen Shannon 45:41
Emily's getting a call on her Apple Watch.

Unknown Speaker 45:45
I am and I have no idea who it is. It's fine. Answer the question.

Kathleen Shannon 45:52
So I felt really awkward around this because one of our first hires was my best friend is like a total No, no, we call her the third sister. We love Liz so much. And so sometimes I feel bad, because I'm balancing the lines of being a boss and being a best friend. And it feels like a little bit more of a balance, I have a lot of practice with it because of working with my sister. Um, but I think recognizing that not everyone wants to be their own boss is huge. Liz loves having a boss. She loves that I take care of her. She loves that she's about to have a baby that I can say, Okay. And one thing that I do for her, I'm giving her the same maternity leave that I'm giving mice that I gave myself. So not a lot of corporations offer eight weeks paid maternity, we're doing that. And so I made sure to take care of my team, but also recognizing that they need guidance. So they're not children. They're not dogs, but like children and dogs, like they like to have a pack leader.

Emily Thompson 47:05
I did not know where you were gonna go with that long.

Kathleen Shannon 47:07
People like to have a copy that like it makes them feel reassured

Unknown Speaker 47:12
yes or not.

Emily Thompson 47:14
No, no, that's, it could that could have went anywhere? No, I agree with that, that has probably been the biggest struggle with me. Because I am such, I've always been involved mode. Like, even when I was working for other people. I was like, the girl in early college who was the manager of shops, because I wasn't gonna work for anybody else. And so, for me, it has definitely the biggest struggle has been recognizing that not everyone wants to be their own boss. And I think for a lot of us, that's probably going to be the struggle, this idea of hiring people, but like, why would they want to work for me when they can work for themselves?

Unknown Speaker 47:54
Because it's awesome.

Emily Thompson 47:55
I know exactly. So for me, part of that is certainly creating like a company culture that is as awesome as possible. Like, you know, my team, if they're sick, don't work, like Don't you dare work like go rest. Or like if you want to take a vacation, go because I'm going to travel as much as humanly possible. So for me, it's creating a company culture that gives them the same benefits of working as I take for myself. So similarly, with you know, maternity leave, it's like taking off when you need to, as long as you're getting your shit done. I don't care what time of day you work, as long as you are answering, you know, important emails and things like that. So for me, it has it has certainly been recognizing that not everyone wants to be their own boss, and that they need and want that guidance, or else they wouldn't be there. But also just giving them the kind of culture that gives them the same joy that running the business gives me that has been really important for me. I also asked my team constantly, how it is that they're enjoying their job, like our Do you like the roles that you're in? Do you like how things are evolving? If they're What things do you not like doing? In which case? Do we need to find someone to do them for you? What things do you want to learn? Like, this is a conversation I have with my team once a quarter and it's not like a it's not a planned conversation? conversation. It's something where we're on Skype. Like recently, Cory was developing a website. And he had worked a lot of hours to get it done. And I was on Skype with him and he was looking a little rough. And I asked him I was like What have you done fun lately? And he looked at me and he's like fun. I was like, yeah, you know that thing when you're not sitting at your computer and, and he was finishing up his last semester of school and he does some extra projects on the side. But it's one of those things I was like this weekend, go have some fun, like it's taking personal interest in your employees. That makes them want to stay around at least I hope Chris agree. But that's how it works for me. For me, it's about giving them the love and attention and the environment that I take so much joy from and building this myself.

Kathleen Shannon 50:12
And I think for me also, one of the things I struggled with early and being a boss to people literally, is because Liz is my bestie. And then feeling like I need to be friends with everyone that works for me. And that's not the case. So like, I love Caitlin, I want her to be with braid forever, but I'm not trying to become best friends with her. So I think that that was like a huge sorry, Caitlin. I okay, yeah, like there's like a certain amount of, you know, personal professional boundaries, and business is personal it is and you become friendly. And I would do anything for Kaitlyn and for my team, but it could also be professional. It's also professional. And so what yesterday, we were talking a lot about the health of your business. And sometimes if you mix things up too much, that's not healthy. If you keep things too separate. That's not healthy, either. Alright, and we got asked when you started being boss, have you originally set it up as a business? Or did you just consider it a side hustle and we talked about this a little bit?

Emily Thompson 51:22
I still consider it a side hustle. I mean, I think it's a big side hustle now and it takes up a lot of our time. But it is still a side hustle.

Kathleen Shannon 51:33
So like we're doing things on this trip, like collecting receipts for David and

Unknown Speaker 51:39
there's a lot of he'll get mad.

Kathleen Shannon 51:42
There's some top stuff we're hiring a lawyer to work with our individual businesses but then work with being boss. So and yes, now

Emily Thompson 51:53
it is a business and it's a side hustle business, but it is absolutely something that we look at in terms of revenue models and taxes. We make sure all of our, like our assets covered in every way possible. Like it's it's a side hustle, but it's one we're taking very seriously. We will be trademarking being boss. So don't even try

Kathleen Shannon 52:13
and earlier this year to say that

Emily Thompson 52:19
making sure no one's gonna go. I mean,

Kathleen Shannon 52:23
that's what I'm like most about, I'll need to talk to my lawyer. Um, okay, so we got asked, How do you separate your personal self from your brand, when you as a maker are your brand?

Emily Thompson 52:38
I have no idea.

Kathleen Shannon 52:41
Okay, I talk a lot about personal branding. I love blending who you are with what you do, I have found, for me, the, the trigger of I need a little separation was having a baby. For a lot of people. That's not an issue. But for me, it was a little bit. So I've had to start. I've had it in a way start thinking about my personal brand as something a little separate from who I am. It's really kind of a mind flip. And sometimes I feel really self absorbed, I get sick of thinking about myself. But for me, it's just saving some things for the in real life conversations, again, who I am on the podcast, and in the blog post is who I really am. And most people might not know that I'm not sharing everything. But then you hang out with me in real life. And I'm really sharing everything. So

Emily Thompson 53:36
yeah, well, it's like the layers of an onion thing, like you are the onion and you can share whatever layers you want, but they'll continually peel back and you can save the innards for yourself. But I think um, I think it's just like setting boundaries. Yeah, of like, what it is that you're going to share publicly, like what parts of you become your brand? And what parts do you reserve for yourself and those closest to you?

Kathleen Shannon 54:02
So I think it's a again, asking yourself, what do you want to be known for on a personal level? What are you willing to put out there? And what can people rely on every single time? And then I think that there's Yeah, this the saving some stuff, but or maybe not like maybe you're all about reading it all out there. I think that this issue is really hard whenever you're growing. And then you expect that you have to do all the work. So as a maker that you literally have to be hammering out all the jewelry yourself because your personal brand is attached to it. That's where it gets tricky, but that's just growing pains.

Emily Thompson 54:40
And, and I also want to point out the the idea or the fact that we're building businesses on the internet, so what you share will be there forever. There's a blog post where Kathleen talked about a period that will be there for ever, which I love, we

Unknown Speaker 54:59
can talk about it right now. Yeah, no,

Emily Thompson 55:03
there we go in there. So like, so that is a thing too. So as you as you are like setting those boundaries, just be really aware that the things that you do share are going to be seen by other people forever.

Kathleen Shannon 55:20
And if you could give all the bosses one book to read for fun or for personal growth, what would you recommend? Daring Greatly done?

Emily Thompson 55:29
I love business. Brilliant.

Kathleen Shannon 55:32
All right. Um,

Unknown Speaker 55:37
let's see.

Kathleen Shannon 55:40
as entrepreneurs who have kids, what do you wish you knew before having kids that you know now about juggling of the two?

Emily Thompson 55:49
So I can't answer that question. Because I started my business right after I had the lead. So for me, it's always been the two, I don't know what it was like, or how easy it must have been before. But for me, it's always been both of them. And whenever. Whenever I have time, without Lily, I'm not working on my business. I'm like sleeping or like walking around or doing like me things. So I imagine I'm, it's probably like me time that I took out of that equation much more than business and Lily time. So probably self care would be the one thing that I would focus on a little more, the one thing that I like, gave up the most, but not gave up entirely. I love just taking baths.

Kathleen Shannon 56:44
And I think the one thing that I wish I had known is that even with my baby being in daycare, up to eight hours a day, and that there's still a certain like mental energy that I reserve to him, that makes me less efficient. So I legit thought, Okay, I'm going to be so efficient now that especially when he was really little, he was maybe in daycare, more like four to six hours a day. And now it's a little bit longer that he's older. But still, my brain cells are just zapped. And I'm not as efficient as I used to be. It takes me longer to transition between tasks. And I think that's because like by 8am, I'm tapped I've already been dealing with the emotions of a two year old and I know that that never changes like and is only probably going to get harder as he gets older and has more preferences. So I wish I just had known to reserve that it's not just about the hours in the day that you have. There's like sort of like a an emotional and mental capacity to having kids that's really exhausting. But and I feel like I talk a lot about how hard it is to be a mom and to be boss. We've been here and the My favorite thing is getting texts from my husband and my mom sending me photos and videos of Fox and my heart is just love. I love that kiddo. I just want everyone to I mean, you guys know, but I like them a lot. And a lot of times bosses asked me about when is the right time to have kids and honestly, as hard as it is. I don't think that there's a wrong time if you're in a good position with your heart. So

Emily Thompson 58:40
I interjected that was my grandmother who called I think she heard me I'm really like she has creepy intuition.

Unknown Speaker 58:55
So we know so sweet. Maybe you should take our call on the podcast.

Unknown Speaker 59:00
I'll call privately later.

Kathleen Shannon 59:03
Um, okay, we got asked on the group me what was my book recommendation? daring greatly by Bernie Brown, and she was on the podcast last week. I'm sorry, I'm reading some questions. edit this space out Corey. Port Cory. He hears like some of the most obscene stories you like you guys, this is too embarrassing. Please. Stop talking about that stuff. After you record that. He

Emily Thompson 59:39
loves it. I'm pretty sure he's probably keeping a separate file somewhere.

Kathleen Shannon 59:45
For our head one time I left the quick time running for 24 hour.

Emily Thompson 59:54
He was mad. Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 59:57
I didn't know how to like just jump into garage Brandon edit it down to like the hour

Unknown Speaker 1:00:03
a day.

Emily Thompson 1:00:06
Like it crashed his computer. It was so big.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:10
That's what she said.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:20
All right, next question.

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:27
Okay, as creatives who offer Client Services, do you feel the urge to just create designs, websites, etc, for yourself to get that creative release? If so, how do you get it out with personal projects, etc? You're looking at it this way of being bosses.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:45
Yeah, I think

Unknown Speaker 1:00:46
Emily redesigns her own website every two weeks.

Emily Thompson 1:00:50
I used to I certainly used to, and I was part of it. Like, if especially when you're starting and you don't, that's how you know, you're into what you're doing. I think whenever like, whenever you start out, you're not like slammed with client projects, if you find yourself doing it for yourself, or giving it away for free, or just finding people to do it for That's how you know, you've hit the sweet spot, I think that's, that's a cool thing, and do whatever you need to do to get it out. If you can do those things for personal reasons, and like, add some revenue in there, that's great. But like, it's just you do it.

Kathleen Shannon 1:01:24
And one of the things that my sister and I really encourage the designers that we work with, to do is to design in your own aesthetic, and to design what you like. And I just got a photo of Fox just now. Okay, so do you do so? Yeah. So, um, one of the things that my sister and I really encouraged designers to do is to design in their own aesthetic. And this is kind of controversial a little bit, because designers are taught to really conform to their client and problem solving for their client and being what their client wants. But for me, if I can design stuff that I love designing for my clients and get paid for it, it's a win win. And then I can just watch Netflix in the evening. So I'm good to go as far as like my creative release, and all that goes because I design the stuff I like designing. Done. I'm okay, um, we got asked, how did you each come up with your title? on what to call yourself? And how many versions did you go through until you found it?

Emily Thompson 1:02:36
Um, so I still don't have a title. And part of that's because your roles will be ever changed ever changing? And I think I think you also have to cater your title a little bit to who you're talking to, like, for me, if I you know, you know, with an older man who's like, oh, what do you do, um, I'm a web designer, because it is something quick and easy that I can say, to just get over that conversation. Because it doesn't matter what I do. It's just like a nicety thing, if it's a potential client, I'm gonna be a little more descriptive, and use words that they're going to connect to a little more. So for me, I have none. But I have like 20. And it depends, or sometimes I'm a podcaster

Unknown Speaker 1:03:21
podcaster a

Emily Thompson 1:03:22
lot now, right? So like, you totally cater it to your audience, like the person that you're talking to. For Business Card purposes, I usually just find them relatively generic, throw it on there.

Kathleen Shannon 1:03:33
Okay, here's what I love about what you said there is you said, Sometimes I'll just help people. I'm a web designer, I think it's really good to just say what you mean and boil it down. And that is your title. So yesterday, we were talking about making your job title and that could probably be more creative for your own clarity of purpose. But I think whenever it comes to getting hired and making money, if you're a coach, but you hate the word, coach, it's a word everyone understands. Use the word coach, it will get you hired.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:07
I'm talking to you girlfriend.

Kathleen Shannon 1:04:09
Um, so we preach getting really say what you mean, whenever it comes to talking about what you do, and I know that it's not everything that you do, but that's okay. You know, and I know and we all know that you do so much more, but to make the money, because again, we're being boss, we're in business, and get more say what you mean about your title and what you do. Um, okay, we have time. I mean, I think we can keep going. Yeah. If people don't like that, it's a longer podcast, they can stop listening

Unknown Speaker 1:04:48
to that,

Kathleen Shannon 1:04:49
um, worst business decision you ever made, and then the best for contrast? probably getting into business doing something I didn't love

Unknown Speaker 1:05:08
best.

Kathleen Shannon 1:05:10
Getting into business with people I love.

Emily Thompson 1:05:15
I like that

Unknown Speaker 1:05:16
everyone start cry.

Emily Thompson 1:05:20
Um, worst business decision you ever made, I think, especially early on taking on the wrong clients just to like, I don't know, book a client, I've had a couple of those that ended up being some of the worst businesses, just whatever worst business decisions I ever made. And then best, I think is taking on the clients that I really, really love. Especially, we work with our clients really long term, especially these days. And like, those are the decisions that will fill your bank account, but also fill your soul. It's it's working with people on like, same level, but it's also working with like client side people. I think those decisions are some of the best and worst you can make. Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 1:06:13
Yeah, it's funny because it's a double edged sword, because I think some of the best decisions I've made, is opening up to collaboration. So in college, I was the girl that hated group projects, because no one else could do it, right. And they wanted to pull all nighters, and I like my sleep. And so those were nightmares, I was always resistant to it. So then I was like, Okay, I'll get in business with my sister who is legit. And then I started really opening up more and more to collaboration. Again, I opened myself up so much that then I collaborated with not wrong people because they're great people. It just wasn't a good fit. And so, and I think really being careful about collaborations and communication and who you work with, can make or break it. So it's like two sides of the same coin are the best and worst business decisions

Emily Thompson 1:07:06
I've made. I agree. Because it's not the services you offer. It's not what you name, your business is not what you make your email address. It's not it's not those little things that we tend to fret about. It's the people you decide to become a part of your business, either as part of your portfolio or as like part of your like a wholesale portfolio or your employees or your partner's like. It's the people you bring into your business that will make and break it not the little decisions that you make along the way.

Kathleen Shannon 1:07:37
All right. I'm getting asked to share the story about the time I audition for America's Next Top Model. You guys want to hear this is where it gets hysterical. They bring tears to tell a story with me.

Emily Thompson 1:07:52
Tara come and tell the story.

Kathleen Shannon 1:08:09
Okay, first of all, you stole my jackets in the room. This is my jacket. I know. I like you like that looks good. Yeah. I thought so too. I was like, Can I have this? Actually, I was brought down this morning for you to wear because I knew it was cold in here. And then I used to partner with your sister. she'll bring you a jacket when you're cold. Okay, okay, let me get in the mindset think about this day. And and we can go back and forth. But basically, let's say I think I was about 21 or 22. And it was cycle six of America's Next Top Model. So this is at the very beginning of reality shows like maybe in TVs. What does that show called? The real world? Oh, my god knows the White House then. Okay, so it was passed then. Yeah. But it was like, at the height of like, there wasn't a reality show for everything. So cycle six of America's Next Top Model. I love the show. I was a big fan. I love Tyra and the smizing. And the girls crying about cutting off their hair. And I'm like, what's the I would cut off my hair in a minute, I would jump out of a plane in a minute. Like all those things. I could do this. Um, so I was about 21 or 22. I was working on an all weekly so like an alternative newspaper. Every week a new paper came out. I was actually working with her husband, so long about So anyway, there was a lot of ads in the paper about auditioning for America's Next Top Model. Everyone I worked with us like oh my god, Kathleen, you have to do it. So I did it. I mean, that's the story. You can tell yourself I mean, like your whole life or like why am I not that girl? Why am I not on TV? Why am I not in the barn? Coyote Ugly?

Unknown Speaker 1:10:04
I'm like, why am I not Jim Henson?

Kathleen Shannon 1:10:14
Or gelfling? Um, okay, so this day I was like, Yeah, let's do it right. And so I think that's how they do. They do the auditions where they do local city auditions, and they were doing it at a car dealership. But it was the Volkswagen dealership. So it's cool. It's really beautiful. They're not sponsored, it was really beautiful and modern and cool. So we had to get there at maybe eight or 9am. And you had a thought this application online, right. And all the paperwork, it was fascinating. I would love to see like more behind the scenes of how reality shows are produced, I'm sure that exists. But and I had to provide photos, I didn't have as many photographer friends then as I do now. So literally taking photos, I forgot that I needed to provide one in my bikini, like in my underwear in the bathroom. With like my Canon power shot, it's like a yellow and yellow tire. It was just what is fine. Okay, so to get a mental picture, Katelyn has always changed her hair whole life, like that's what's consistent about Kathleen's hair is it's always different. So this plant was really, really straight and really red. And you can have a really rockabilly style. So we thought you would make a really great character on this reality. Like, we were really acknowledging that you have to be a character, right? Yeah. So even then, it was like personal branding. I'll be the girl mixing it up. So we kind of went into that, you know, whatever. So we get there. And we have our paperwork, and you get out and I'm with her like her companion. And I bring an umbrella because I bring an umbrella with me because it's so hot and sunny that day. And so I'm like here and I have the umbrella open like so she doesn't get sunburned are standing in line outside. And I'm so wise. And all the other girls auditioning are beautiful, dark skinned, African American. And Gods like I was one of the few really likes can really go there. And so I'm like this umbrella. Just, I feel like I didn't feel like a door. No, I was like getting this umbrella. And I'd be like to the other girls, when they get it as umbrella and they were like you are you free? Because we were so nice. And then the local news showed up. So we're all in this long line as always taking it really seriously. Except for maybe you are but you're pretending like you weren't cuz I was with you. But I felt pretty serious. Like I really thought it was hilarious. You know, so the news guy comes and he's filming all the girls in line for America's Next Top Model audition. And all these girls look like models. They're gorgeous. Everyone's gorgeous. I'm like you are gorgeous. In real life cap. I'm such a

Unknown Speaker 1:13:08
loser if you don't get in it just because it's not translating, like in real life is gorgeous. I know. I'm awful older. So then that new camera comes right? Yeah, all the girls are like, you know, sucking it in and being all serious and Kathleen turns, she's getting up. She makes eye contact with the camera guy. And she starts stomping.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:31
Like, wow.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:36
Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 1:13:42
She starts, stomp, walking out towards the camera man who's eating up and all the other girls immediately hate her guts.

Then we decided to turn to the girl behind us and be like, hey, come he's like, do you want to have a fake fight? And she goes, Oh, girl, if I'm fighting you, I'm fighting.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:20
I take it back

Kathleen Shannon 1:14:23
into my story, cuz then you went into the room. Okay, so then I get to the next phase. And we're in a room I can hardly remember. But we're in a room. And they're telling us all the rules about going into the room with the camera. And you're going to be standing there for 20 seconds and then turn to the side and then the other side. And I started really getting worried about how much I weighed, because like I said, but I'm not model fit. I probably could have lost like 20 or 30 pounds before auditioning for this thing. And I was worrying about like how symmetrical it face was, but it was fine. I was still being funny. And so they wanted to hear personal stories. And I literally went skydiving the week before just so I could talk about it.

I didn't tell her I skydiving until after I landed, and I called her and I said, I just went skydiving. You crazy. A little. Wait. Do you think there's a confidentiality agreement you signed when you audition?

You can't say, surely. So it was just local reps kind of hosting the audition. And they were really nice. They were like, I think you're gonna get it. So then I really thought I was going to be on America's Next Top Model. Cycle six comes out. There's a beautiful girl on there named Molly. Do you guys remember she had short hair and like really blue eyes? That was supposed to be me. Like that plot, you would have failed. Yeah. That's my America's Next Top Model, audition story, which we may have to edit out for I'm looking at our our lawyer now. I get that too. Now, we're fine. She says we're fine. Okay. Thanks for letting me remember that story. I didn't want to talk about branding or

Unknown Speaker 1:16:36
methodology or like your America's.

Kathleen Shannon 1:16:44
Alright.

All right, we have a couple more questions. And they're really good. You guys are asking really good questions. So do it. And again, it might be a little longer podcast, we have a hard stop at noon so that we can poop and go see psychics. But

we're getting a lot of coaching questions. I need to be like, Oh, I'm

Emily Thompson 1:17:19
really excited about these.

Kathleen Shannon 1:17:23
Okay, do you have a coach who you've worked with for a long time? Or do you mix it up every six months or so and find a new coach to focus on specific goals. I do think that whenever you hire a coach, it's good to know exactly what you want coaching around. I've had coaches for more vague reasons. And it just feels like I'm making up stuff to be upset about just to get coached on it. So that's a little awkward. And something that you got to be careful about whenever you're being coached, like so. So be careful about that, that you're not just making up stuff to be upset about. I like getting different coaches for different things. But I always go back to my coach Jay Pryor, whenever I need him, I just will call him up and be like, Hey, I see one session like I just need to brush up. But then I also have people in my life, like Emily, who is a business coach, and I can I can talk about a lot of things leverage that. Like sorry, if I'm crossing any boundaries, but do you think I should do this to my email list? And she's like, yes, yes, and no, you know, whatever. And then also, obviously, my sister is a huge help in my life personally and professionally. So but I do think that mixing it up and getting a coach for what you need is important, but then if you find someone that you connect with, come back to them and even if you need to talk to them about things that aren't in their area of expertise, but you really trust them. That's always good to agree. All right. Do you think using coach requires a coaching certificate I default to mentors since I'm not a trained or certified coach? And this probably comes this question probably comes because we're like if your coach to say that you're a coach, I think that coaching and the industry is booming and it's getting huge. I'm weird about using the word mentor because if I'm mentoring someone it does not cost money. Like for me being a mentor is someone that I'm giving my time to giving my gifts and knowledge to because I have a personal vested interest in them. I mean, I have a personal vested interest in everyone I coach too. And it's just a different relationship. It feels more of like an internship or that sort of thing but um, I think you can use coach without being certified but just be careful just know

Emily Thompson 1:19:36
I know there's a lot of stink about this. There's it's a big nasty conversation and I the way you fix it is that you actually are good at what you do. So if you're going to use coach don't mar the word by being an asshole coach, like, just do it right and no one will ever have a problem.

Kathleen Shannon 1:19:53
I felt like I needed to go through coaching training in order to call myself a coach. I needed that to give myself the content. instant credibility. So I did that. And it was huge. And it was awesome for forgetting that and feeling like I can use the word coach. I don't think it's necessary even after going through the training, I'm like, wow, this is a lot of stuff that I was already reading about are already doing in my business, but I needed to pay that money and that investment to feel good about using that word. So it might just be get some certification, invest in it and feel really good about using the word coach. Um, do you have any advice on relating to close friends who are not entrepreneurs, I find many of mine have a hard time talking to me about my work life, because they assume it is always amazing. And why would I ever struggle or complain? I've surrounded myself with

Emily Thompson 1:20:43
entrepreneurs, I know I'm thinking the same thing too, or, or you just show them both sides of it. Like if you guys are going to have a conversation about work, I mean, they're going to both like praise and bitch, and you can do the same thing do like show them that it's not all like daisies and butterflies, but don't like don't endlessly talk about it. And I don't know, there's a lot of a lot of thoughts that entrepreneurs just get to play all day. And I think it's almost part of our job to like, prove that this shit is hard, or else everyone's gonna be an entrepreneur, and

Unknown Speaker 1:21:19
half of them are gonna end up failing. But it's also not that hard.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:24
Says the bosses.

Kathleen Shannon 1:21:28
I don't know, like, I just don't want to perpetuate. It's both like, and I don't think that it's for everyone. But I do think that there is something happening in our creative culture or society that really celebrates the entrepreneur right now. And I don't think that we all have to be entrepreneurs to connect like bosses, you can be your own. You can be boss without being your own boss. And so for my friends, it's kind of like relating to my friends that don't have kids, and saying, okay, here's the experience, here's what I'm experiencing. But then also, I love connecting with my mom friends and be like, Okay, can we just talk about this? Like, you can dive deeper, faster? But I still love having friends that don't have kids? Because,

Unknown Speaker 1:22:10
yeah, they're more fun.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:15
A little bit, a little bit? Um,

Emily Thompson 1:22:16
yeah, well, and I think it's, I think it's being okay, not talking about work sometimes. And I know that something that people like us who are so into what we do get into this rut of talking about what we do all the time. And, and that drives our non entrepreneur, friends nuts. So I think just being mindful of like, having a good balance in conversation is really important. And then they're going to be a lot more receptive. When you are talking about what you do, then if you're literally just talking about it all the time.

Kathleen Shannon 1:22:48
I have weird boundary issues, too, because I know so many creative entrepreneurs, whenever we're talking about business, there's a point in which I'm like, you know what, like, you're my good friend, but I should be charging you for what we're talking about right now. And it is a really careful balance, because I love talking business. And I love like giving my friends as much as I can. But at some point, like, Hey, can we talk about boys or something? Or you know, travel or just something else? So it is balanced there too. And we got asked, How do you handle the incidental naysayers in your life, both in business? And otherwise? How do you not let negative but unavoidable, folks take the wind out of your sails, if you're super stoked with where you're going, I break up with them.

Emily Thompson 1:23:38
That that's, I feel like that's more of an internal conversation than an external conversation, and people are going to say shit, if people don't understand what you do, they're not always just going to like resort to positivity. And if you get the negative stuff, deal with it within you, I mean, I'm a web designer, which in the south, where I'm from, is not understood by any means. And most people like never, I tell them what I do. They look at me with a little bit of pity and concern and a sweet little Southern smile on their face. But like, it's something that I had to learn to completely and utterly get over. And it's not a conversation you have with them. It's a conversation you have with yourself. And I think that, like you, you just get over it. Because if you let that bog you down, you will never make the next steps to make what you do legitimate to them as well as yourself.

Kathleen Shannon 1:24:39
Yeah, again, I think it's a confidence issue. So I really don't have very many naysayers. Oh, Tara, and I joke that our dad is often like, hey, if this braid thing doesn't work out, you guys should do like Halloween costumes for a living because that's so much more lucrative than

Emily Thompson 1:25:00
What about now that you are a podcaster?

Kathleen Shannon 1:25:03
Oh, yeah, no, but like what I think, okay, here's what I get. I think that people assume that I don't make any money. So whenever I'm out maybe, to an networking event, but like maybe a social event with my husband, and they asked us what we do, I'll say I'm a creative entrepreneur, I do branding and business visioning, or I'm a podcaster, whatever that title is that day, or who I'm talking to you. And then they asked my husband, and he says, Oh, I'm an electrical engineer, I do software engineering. And they're like, Oh, well, that's good that like, you can pay the bills to him. And then he's like, actually, my wife makes almost twice as much money as I do. So see, ya know, it's really not like, I just laugh my way to the bank or like, no, like, so I used to be. And there's probably like, even just talking about here, maybe a little bit of insecurity, or I have something to prove about it. But, and, and now I'm kind of like, you know, what, you can think that you can think I make no money, that's fine. I have nothing to prove to you stranger at this event.

Emily Thompson 1:26:13
Right. or family. And that is a and family too. I

Unknown Speaker 1:26:17
mean,

Emily Thompson 1:26:17
yeah. But it's also the same. It's an internal conversation, you work hard, you prove them wrong. I know for me, a lot of it's definitely been using that as fuel to like, do what I need to do to make anything that anyone could ever say to me completely irrelevant. And like I would rather use that as power for moving forward than like something that holds me back.

Kathleen Shannon 1:26:41
I think the more confidence I have in my vision and what I'm doing, the more I can get my family on board with it. And so this is huge. Like if your partner is scared because you want to quit your job and they're like, Hey, I don't know like, I will lose work. They're thinking about themselves, quitting their jobs and trying to do what you're doing and that might not be for them. And that's okay. So again, communication, talk to them say, Here's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Here's how I plan on making money. If they're riling something up in you by being a naysayer, it might be because you have holes in your business model, especially if they love you the most. So for example, I might bring something up to Tara. And she's like, I don't know about that. And if I get angry and defensive is because probably she's right. Or because there's some holes in it, or she's scared. And I'll say, okay, no, here's why I think it's going to work. And so again, just having those conversations, and then either she's on board, and she's like, yeah, okay, let's do it. Or she's like, I don't know about that. But we can try. And then it fails. And it's not a big deal we move through right, so. All right, thank you guys so much for joining us in New Orleans. This weekend has been just above and beyond anything we could have ever expected or wish for our minds and hearts are just blown way wide open. And we are hoping to maybe do two events a year. So maybe in the spring and the fall, it might be a little bit ambitious. we're experimenting with what that might look like. So any of you listening if you want to come on a vacation with us, we're gonna have more in the future. All right, thanks. Do the work the boss. Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Show Notes for this episode at love being boss calm. Listen to past episodes and subscribe to new episodes on our website on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Stitcher?

Emily Thompson 1:28:42
Did you like this episode? Head on over to our Facebook group by searching bean balls in Facebook to join in on the conversation with other bosses or share it with a friend? Do the work. Be boss? And we'll see you next week.

Kathleen Shannon 1:29:22
Can you repeat your question? Was it Do you? How do you get inspired after you've lost your motivation? Boehner?

Unknown Speaker 1:29:27
Yeah, how do you get back in the last mindset?

Kathleen Shannon 1:29:32
I think for Emily and I like even if we don't have a motivation, Boehner we still have to write you choose

Unknown Speaker 1:29:37
I think the way

Emily Thompson 1:29:39
we do right? Right.

Kathleen Shannon 1:29:50
Gotta get in there and do it. And just trust that it's gonna feel good when you start. I love sex metaphors.