Being a Breadwinning Boss

Emily Thompson 0:00
Welcome to episode number 30.

Kathleen Shannon 0:08
Get your business together, get yourself into what you do and see it through

Emily Thompson 0:13
being bosses hard. Lending work in life is messy. Making a dream job of your own isn't easy,

Kathleen Shannon 0:19
but getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable

Emily Thompson 0:27
if you do the work.

Kathleen Shannon 0:29
Being boss is a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. Brought to you by Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon.

Emily Thompson 0:35
Hi, I'm Emily and I own indie typography, where I help passionate entrepreneurs establish and grow their business online. By helping them build brands that attract and websites that sell. I help my clients launch their business so they can do more of what they love, and make money doing it.

Kathleen Shannon 0:54
And I'm Kathleen, I'm the CO owner of braid creative where I specialize in branding and business visioning for creative entrepreneurs who want to blend who they are with what they do narrow in on their core genius and shape their content so they can position themselves as experts to attract more dream clients.

Emily Thompson 1:12
And being boss as a podcast where we're talking shop, giving you a peek behind the scenes of what it takes to build a business, interviewing other working creatives and figuring it out. As we go right there with you.

Unknown Speaker 1:24
Check out our archives at loving boss calm.

Emily Thompson 1:28
This episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting.

Kathleen Shannon 1:34
Hey guys, in today's episode, we're going to be answering a few questions from our boss listeners, we're going to be chatting about what it feels like to be a working mom and the breadwinner of your family.

Emily Thompson 1:47
And we'll also be jamming on having a successful business partnership in managing personality conflict.

Kathleen Shannon 1:57
Alright, you guys, before we get into the episode, I want to talk to you for just a minute about our sponsor fresh books. Fresh books is designed exclusively for small service based business owners who bill for their time and expertise, so they can get organized and get paid. Alright, you've been hearing me talk about the features for a while now if you've been listening to being boss, but today, I really want to talk about how much Emily and I love having freshbooks as a sponsor for this podcast, they are just, I mean, we're literally getting on the phone with them and having calls and talking about ways that we can leverage the partnerships that we're doing better things for you guys. And the last time we talked to freshbooks, they told us that the conversion rate for our listeners is through the roof that we have some of like we have, how do you say it Emily, like our metrics are some of the smallest of all the podcasts that they sponsor, but the conversion rates are the highest. Okay, so what that actually means is that you guys really like freshbooks, too, and you're actually using it. So we're so happy that we were able to partner up with a sponsor that really aligns with our audience. And we're going to keep working with them. So thanks for I guess supporting them. Keep track of your finances like a boss. Try fresh books for free for 30 days go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section when signing up? All right. On to the episode. We're trying something new today. I was like Emily, let's just go into this and hit record because I want people to hear the kinds of conversations that we have before we usually hit record. So what have you been up to lately? You just returned from your road trip?

Emily Thompson 3:45
I did. We got back. I guess we got back pretty hardcore about actually less than a week ago. So after we left you and Oklahoma City, we went to hot springs for a couple of days. And you have my 29th birthday, which was way fun. birthday. Thank you. We got a we got to back to Florence, Alabama. We were only here for two nights. We went to Chattanooga and did some house hunting for a couple of days. And

Kathleen Shannon 4:10
how did that go?

Emily Thompson 4:11
It went really well. Of course we found eight houses that we want.

Kathleen Shannon 4:16
That's wonderful. Are they all like in your budget or? Well,

Emily Thompson 4:19
that's we looked at several around multiple budgets, just to sort of get an idea of what the market was like in Chattanooga. And then we came back here and David has been working on getting all of our mortgage stuff together. So his his job right now is paperwork, which I don't think he's totally loving. He seems a little stressed out. But um, but it's for some really good things. So we're back in Florence for for the moment. We're just sort of I'm slumming it, slumming it at my friend, Mikey's house working for for the week. We're gonna be going back and forth from Chattanooga. To get things together and as soon as we get paperwork done In the house picked out were moving into Chattanooga.

Kathleen Shannon 5:04
Fine, I can't wait to see what house you buy and how all of that goes. Are you going to get? I mean, I just think that process takes a while to adjust. So what are you going to do? Are you going to like Airbnb a place or?

Emily Thompson 5:19
No? Yes, maybe. I don't know. We have a couple of things up in the air right now. Actually, we're working on a proposal to do some really cool stuff with a with a company in Chattanooga, which I probably can't talk about at the moment yet, but as soon as things are worked out, we'll definitely talk about it. So we'll be going back and forth. Right now we're sitting in my grandmother's my grandmother is a Snowbird so she's currently in northern Indiana. She lives on a farm up there. And our house has been empty here. So we're just saying our house was she loves She's so happy that I'm like watching her home for her. Um, so we do we have a house here that we're we're staying in my grandmother's for for the time being while we while we go back and forth between here in Chattanooga. And yeah, we're looking at looking at some airbnbs David's 30th birthday is coming up in like two weeks. So we've been looking at finding a really swanky Airbnb in Chattanooga to have some fun, then, but we're gonna at the moment we're staying at my grandmother's I'm working from my friend Mikey's house, traveling back and forth while we get all the paperwork and everything done, and she's trying to live up summer. What about you, you were on a big road trip to

Unknown Speaker 6:37
a little road trip.

Kathleen Shannon 6:40
And, you know, it's I haven't, I haven't driven with thoughts that much. We've flown a lot, but he's 18 months old. And it was our first kind of big road trip together as a family. And so we drove only maybe six or seven hours Matt maybe it was eight hours from Oklahoma City down to Hill Country, Texas, which is kind of outside of Austin. We went to Wimberley, Texas, and we went to Fredericksburg, Texas, and we hopped out into Corpus Christi for a day to see my grandma. Okay, so my grandma is old, like very, very, like maybe 90. And she has water on the brain, which is I guess, a form of dementia anyway, she's fine. She's fine. And she's really sweet. I haven't seen her in a few years, and I knew that this might be the last chance to see her. Um, you know, before she passes, but I she's really at peace with all of that. Um, anyway, I saw her we meet up and she was smiling and she was like, You're such a pretty girl. I can't believe you're old enough to have a baby. She's but my God, your hair is so ugly. Oh, and she said it one more time before he left and I was like that might be my grandma's last words to me. Were like you have ugly hair. But I thought it was funny. But we just we hung out in hill country. We rented an Airbnb in Wimberley right on a river that had a rope swing into the river. So we did that even though the river was questionable. Like there was later I noticed a sign that said there may be high levels of bacteria in this river. And so I woke up in the middle of night one night convinced that like a parasite had gotten into my brain and I'm, you know, just normal thoughts, right? Oh, but along the way, I found a new favorite podcast I wanted to share. Uh, yeah, that is it's called you made it weird with Pete Holmes. And I especially I specifically listened to an episode with Jenny Slate and Judd Apatow and Henry Rollins and Mark Paul goslar, Zack Morris from Anyway, um, it was it was really cool. And I mean, it was each podcast is around two hours long on average. And it was really inspiring as someone who has a podcast myself to hear his podcast and it wasn't super polished, but he was still talking to big deal people. And they were just having real honest kind of behind the scenes conversations. And it was completely unedited, like, there were moments where people would get up and you hear them fumbling in the background. And I was like, well, we're not doing too bad. Like I think I do just the right amount of editing but it made me feel I guess, even just a little more courageous in our own sharing and how we share and because I think I was suffering really bad from like vulnerability hangovers, which is a term that Bernie brown coined, and that I use often after recording these podcasts. So anyway, yeah,

Emily Thompson 9:59
good. had to check that one out. I, we listened to a couple of podcasts on the road and I really anticipated listening to tons of them. Like I downloaded a lot of them and I think we listened to to. For 40 days of driving in the car you

Unknown Speaker 10:13
guys were listening to Harry Potter.

Emily Thompson 10:15
We did we did. We listened to Harry Potter. We listened to the first. Now let's see, Lily had already heard the first book. So I I'm one of those moms that would not let Lily watch the movies until she read the books because I grew up reading Harry Potter books total like Potter fan, and so she had already listened to the first one. And we listen to the second, third and fourth on our 40 day adventure. So we listened to a lot of Harry Potter and

Kathleen Shannon 10:47
that's so fun. I miss you guys. So after you left Oklahoma City, I found one of Lily's tiny little Hello Kitty socks and our couch. Okay, so like the first thing that you guys were here we were walking to a coffee shop and literally grabs my hand and I was just like, I don't know if it's like mom hormones are wet, but like melted it and you're like Oh hell no, she owns you now.

Emily Thompson 11:12
We have this ongoing joke and it's really not a joke that if she touches you, she owns you. And she just has this little charm and that works on everyone. I mean, she will ask people for things and she knows what she's doing. She's a total con artist and has this cute little phase and her blonde curly hair and it is literally the cutest funniest thing as a mom who totally sees it. I see her for what she is and everyone else just eats it up

Kathleen Shannon 11:41
whatever love is true love between me and Lily so I had a photo of it to you and I was like this is like the equivalent of whenever a girl leaves her abroad and plays because she was like have insurance we're coming back I was like really leaving her sock here because she wants to come back and stay with Aunt Kathleen. I love having you guys my miss you so much already you should come back

Emily Thompson 12:06
oh we will we will definitely be coming backwards. You know after doing that fun road trip we we have talked every day almost about what the next trip will be I mean we're we're toll road trippers now and, and want to travel all over and Oklahoma City being in the middle of the country, we're going to be coming through a lot I

Unknown Speaker 12:27
like it. Um, what else? Oh, we open to being boss bank account?

Emily Thompson 12:36
We did. So that's like a whole other level of legit

Unknown Speaker 12:39
for sure.

Unknown Speaker 12:40
And

Kathleen Shannon 12:40
you know, I think it's like I wouldn't even mention it here on the podcast just because we've been operating for what now six months as being boss. And we've been making money. Yep. And, and we've been running a legit business. And we still don't have all of our I's dotted and our T's crossed, we just now open a bank account. And we're still trying to kind of, you know, figure out the paperwork and linking everything up, it is a process. So this is just to say, if you're side hustling, or you have a project, and you don't have all the legit stuff happening, like an LLC or a bank account, you don't need that stuff to start operating as a business yet, even like legally on your taxes, you can claim side hustle income on the side without even having a proper business. Now, I'm not an attorney, I'm not an accountant. So don't take my word for that. I'm sure we can get an email and it's like, you're wrong, Kathleen, you could be sued. But really, for the most part, it's just to say you don't have to be air quote, legit, to actually start and run a business or a side project or creative, passionate endeavor.

Emily Thompson 13:55
Certainly and, and you are correct. And again, I'm not an accountant or a lawyer as well. Don't hold me to this but I do know that if you want to operate as a sole proprietor you like the moment you take money from anyone you are a sole proprietor, there's no paperwork, you just have to follow it on your taxes as income. And and I think that's monumental. You know, we talk to a lot of clients who, who don't have a website, or they haven't been branded, or they don't, they don't have a bank account, or they don't

Unknown Speaker 14:25
even have a name yet

Emily Thompson 14:26
for what it is that they're doing. And you know, if you let those sort of small, small, but important milestones keep you from starting, you're just using them this key, amen.

Unknown Speaker 14:40
That's what I was going

Emily Thompson 14:42
to say. Because you don't need them you just have to start doing and then all the other things will come as they as it's time for them. You know, once you start making a legit amount of money, then you LLC and get a bank account,

Kathleen Shannon 14:54
right like we're getting a good chunk from our New Orleans trip which is coming Yeah, you guys, literally probably even as of airing this episode, we may be closing registration because we have 75 spots total available. And I think right now we have about 65 people coming.

Emily Thompson 15:13
I think maybe even more than 65 we need to check numbers. I haven't checked them in a couple of days but I'm kind of intense 10 we're within two hands 10 fingers of being full and so Um, so yeah, if you guys want to come hang out with with us in New Orleans, there may be a few spots left you can go to love being boss, calm slash, Nola.

Unknown Speaker 15:37
That's correct. Good.

Emily Thompson 15:41
And, and sign up there. So we've been planning, planning that trip, doing lots of work there. We finally got that contract from the hotel. Yay. So we can start booking rooms for the attendees. And we've been planning all kinds of fun stuff and stuff. So love being boss, calm slash Nola. If you want to join Kathleen and I in New Orleans in October,

Kathleen Shannon 16:06
I'm also going to throw out that we are looking for sponsors for New Orleans. So we have some fun collaborations that we want to do with the brands that want to sponsor that big vacation that we're all going on. And so if you are a brand and you're interested in working with us holler, and we'll try and figure something else, we're also going to have swag bags. So if you are a creative maker, and you're interested in having your product in the hands of all of our amazing bosses and just shoot us an email, you can contact us through our contact form at loving boss calm, and I'll get you more information as soon as I design it. Again. It has been on my to do list for a while. All right, well, let's go ahead and get to our listener questions.

Emily Thompson 16:57
Yes.

Kathleen Shannon 16:59
Alright. So the first one is one that I got a couple of days ago. From a really great creative entrepreneur. I like her so much, but she's also de jobbing. I'll just read the letter. Hey, Kathleen, and Emily, hope you are doing awesome. I just caught up on the latest being boss podcast. And I've been having this feeling that I don't know what to do with the feeling like I have this situation that no one else can relate to. So many stories of successful creatives, or creatives who are successfully building their businesses include some variation of one, they don't have kids, two are single without kids, three are in a partnership with or without kids, where their partner earns an income. I have two kids and am the sole breadwinner in our family. I've been building my side hustle with my business partner. And I feel we've been doing well considering the fact that we can devote 100% of our time to it. And I'm super grateful for that. But it's hard to not feel overwhelmed. And like I'm sacrificing some things that are important to me. Have you ever worked with any other creatives who are in the same boat as me and are trying to build a business? Crystal?

Unknown Speaker 18:19
You know, what

Emily Thompson 18:20
do you want to go first with this one, so crystal and share a little story about my beginnings. I started I started my business. Whenever I graduated college, David was going to graduate school. And instead of going out and getting a traditional job with my degree that I had just been given, I decided to start what is now in digital poverty that I decided to start designing websites for makers who at that time were getting off of Etsy and needed a website to make their business more legit. And whenever I started that business, every one of my family and probably most of my friends thought that I was absolutely completely insane. Because David got a research assistantship and was making less than $1,000 a month so very little income, which more or less made me the sole breadwinner in a business that I was just starting. And and so yes, I completely, completely know where you're coming from with this idea of not having anyone to relate to, but know that I will relate to you because it is hard. But it's not impossible. It is so not impossible. And you having the responsibility of being the sole breadwinner, and your family puts you in a really great place to understand the hustle so much more than people who are not in that situation. I accredit a huge part of my business's success to being put in that position and for me choosing it like I wholeheartedly chose to be a work at home mom, and to build my business instead of going and getting the traditional job, but but it was definitely hard. And, and you find people who you find people who understand even if they're not in the same position as you. And likewise, you find, or the people who are in your life will come to respect the decision that you've made, as long as you keep it up and succeed at what you're wanting to do. And having a business partner with your side hustle is, is really awesome. And even even if she's not in the same position, as you, you know, partnering with you, she had a reason or he,

Kathleen Shannon 20:46
I guess, I don't know if it's, I think it's a gal. The name out of it just for I don't know, privacy sake.

Emily Thompson 20:53
Oh, well, good. Well, I mean, she's definitely with you, because she sees huge value in what you do. And so just just keep on keepin on with that. I think I think that what you're doing is one of the most badass things that you can do, being the sole breadwinner in your family, when you have two kids, and hustling out your day job as well as a side hustle. You are one of those people that I admire hugely and partly because I know where you've been. And it is hard but not impossible to keep on going.

Kathleen Shannon 21:29
All right, I just want to add that it is a sacrifice, but it's not permanent. And so for me as a working mom right now, I feel like the sacrifice in some ways is that, I mean, there's lots of them, they can't travel as much to exotic places that I want to go, I can't spend so much time working on my business. In fact, whenever I was listening to that Pete Holmes podcast when it was he was interviewing Henry Rollins, Henry Rollins writes something like 2000, or maybe 12,000 words a day, it's insane the amount that man works, but he has no family, really not even many friends, it was kind of a little sad, really. I mean, those were his choices. And he said that he gets energy from doing the work. And he is giving it all to his audience that he doesn't have anything left for a private relationship. I don't understand it, but I respect it. Anyway, we have made choices. Emily and I both and then it looks like you too crystal to have a family. And Okay, so what I really want to say is that it's the sacrifice is not permanent. But none of it is your kids being young, that's not permanent, they're going to continue getting older. I think for me, especially, I think that every day I'm in is forever, I feel like my baby is going to be 18 months old for ever. And I feel like I'm going to be where I'm at in business for ever, but it's not permanent. Also, your day job isn't permanent. And what feels like security isn't let's say your day job folded right now, what would you do, you would probably give the site hustle your all and you would probably make it work a lot like Emily made it work whenever she was the sole breadwinner for her family. And then finally, your side hustle isn't permanent, this thing that you're building right now will continue to ebb and flow and grow as you do. So let's say you quit your job, or the job folded, and you're working on your side, hustle and it doesn't work, you can always try something else, you can always change your mind, you can always try something like dip your toe into one thing. And if the water is too hot or too cold, you can take your toe out. But if it starts feeling good, you can just get in there a little bit more. I guess that's that's my main thing is just getting in the mindset that nothing is permanent. And just see what that does for you. I also want to mention that my sister quit her job as a creative director VP at an advertising agency. And while her husband worked, she was definitely the breadwinner. Um, and she had two kids. And I guess maybe just saying you're not alone is what I'm trying to say a lot of people do this. And I think a lot of people have more anxiety about it than other people do. And that's totally valid. I can totally relate now that I have a kiddo and that that kind of security comes first. I get it, but just keep leaning into. Keep leaning into the hustle.

Emily Thompson 24:45
Yes, and don't don't feel too overwhelmed all the time. Again,

Unknown Speaker 24:51
do some yoga,

Emily Thompson 24:52
do some brief freeze. You don't even have to downward dog. Just breathe. Hey, bosses. I'm going to take a second to interrupt this episode to tell you that if you're liking being boss and you're ready to level up your game, we've got something just for you. Check out the being boss bundle. It's Kathleen's DIY coaching for creatives. And my Get your shit together series bundled together at one low price just for you bosses. You can find that at love being boss, calm slash bundle. Okay, back to the episode. Okay, good. So let's go to number two. Ready for number two? Yeah, let's do it. All right. Hello, ladies. I'd love to hear about how each of you have made working with a partner work. When you're a solopreneur. You're just rocking it with yourself. But when you have a business partner, in my case, it's my sister like you, Kathleen, you have another work ethic and personality to jive with, what if they're a bit different? What happens when you don't see eye to eye on certain things? I would love to hear your thoughts, even if it's a minisode. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 26:01
no. So

Emily Thompson 26:05
you two are the best, Laura.

Kathleen Shannon 26:08
All right, Laura. And Tara and I were sisters. Yes. But we're also fortunately super close and have almost a psychic shorthand that has allowed us to really build our business super fast. So I would say the pros definitely outweigh the cons whenever it comes to managing personalities and work ethics. But we have had meltdowns and we have had personality conflicts. And there have been some tears, there have been some fights. Sometimes I even worry like, Oh my gosh, am I ruining our personal relationship because of our professional realm that we're in, especially at first. And so some of the things that we did first off was hire a coach. And that's something else that Lisa Condon and clay Walsh talked about on that episode, which I think is Episode 2726. Anyway, you can check our archives at loving boss calm for that. But working with an executive coach and the coach that we worked with was Jay prior. And he really helped us kind of find ways to really communicate with each other early and often about the kinds of things that can come up. And so probably about once a quarter, we talk about our business and life goals, it sometimes happens or we're on a business trip together poolside or on a road trip, like we really have to find the time to get in the headspace for that conversation. We'll even talk about what if scenarios, like what if we shut it all down and not because we are but just to know that we're making a choice to be in this partnership. And to know that we can get out of it if we want to. Um, and then right now, so my sister is my business partner. But I'm also now business partners with Emily and I have another business partner for another business venture I'm working on that we'll be launching soon I'll be able to talk about it soon. But there are lots of personalities and work ethics to deal with. And so for Emily and myself, What are you kissing your mic making out with your mic?

Emily Thompson 28:23
Just a little

Kathleen Shannon 28:25
while anyway, I use again, you say for us like even just yesterday, I sent you an uncomfortable email. I was like, Hey, we have too many errors in our newsletter. Like, in our being boss newsletter. We've sent out a lot of newsletters with broken links or wrong information. And I was just feeling especially embarrassed yesterday after getting an email saying, Hey, this is the wrong link. And so I said Emily, probably I haven't even talked to you about this. Yeah, I was like so weird about sending it because I was like, Hey, can we have some sort of checks and balances like, yeah, I'm happy to prove this myself. And the thing is that we're working so fast and working, we're rushing to get stuff out the door, that we don't really have a lot of time to make sure that it's perfect. Um, anyway, but like, I think it's just being willing to send those emails and know that. I guess for me, it's just knowing that there's ultimately like, love and trust and respect under all of it.

Emily Thompson 29:22
Yeah, that's definitely this definitely. Yeah, I mean, actually, when I got that email from you yesterday, because it went out to the team. I like silently High Five view. I really did because because I agree and it's, it's having both of us have eyes on things that that makes partnering so much more worth it. So apart from from us, and I'll get to that in a second. But with an indie shot biography within, you know, my personal business in the past two years, David, who, you know, finished that grad degree and that he worked so hard to get and then decided to join me In the short bumper feed for lots of reasons, he's been working with me for two years, and we've we've made the decision that as we shut down things in Alabama with our move to Tennessee, the David will officially become a business partner in Indy Sharpie, so yay,

Kathleen Shannon 30:15
David.

Emily Thompson 30:17
Yay, David, he's earned it. Um, so. So, you know, I've been working, you've been working with your sister, and I've been working with my like life partner, which is whose whole other whole other boundary that we've had to cross know, we live in the same house together. We do literally almost everything together these days. But, but partnering with with someone makes all the things easier, in a way that makes the things that are harder worth it. So mixing personalities and having to take extra time to double check things or to, to just sort of think about other people's feelings, sometimes it's a good practice to have. And it's a really good one, that you'll stretch a lot whenever you're working with, with a partner and communication, you know, just did owing Kathleen and every other person who have ever who's ever spoken about partnerships, it's communication, it's being able to, to say what you need to say it's having the grace to say it in a kind way. It's knowing when kindness isn't going to cut it. And you need to sort of say things in the way that will get the best attention. It's, it's about knowing the person that you're working with, in a way that, that you know how to, to go at even hard situations, it's being open enough to talk about the hard things because so many partners that I've talked to, or just people in general have a hard time saying true things, even if or if they're hard to say. So getting over the hardness of talking about hard things, is really important for for building a partnership. For David Knight, particularly in today's one of those days where we needed to practice this, it's, it's knowing when the other ones in a bad mood. And just walking away I think is a good one. I think allowing people to have to have ups and downs in a partnership is really really important. A lot of times people will go into partnerships with this sort of like I don't know, Rose tinted glasses of everything's going to be you know, cheery and fun. But

Unknown Speaker 32:39
even like creative entrepreneurship, people have that feeling that it's all Yeah, amazing and fun all the time. Even if yellow. It's not.

Emily Thompson 32:48
No it's not and and whenever you are working with a partner, you have to deal with their ups and downs, too. So um, so just this morning, I woke up just in a crabby mood, just one of those days totally woke up on the wrong side of the bed, had a big proposal to get together along with all my other things. And David knew to just let me go to work, don't like poke the Sleeping Bear, the Grumpy Bear. And, and that happened also lots of times on our road trip. I mean, whenever you're spending 40 days in the car with someone or in a tent with someone, we definitely learned the art of like recognizing when a bad mood is coming and then just offering to let them have some alone time. So

Kathleen Shannon 33:29
I love using that the most is just letting giving someone the permission to feel how they want to feel. I know that whenever I'm in a bad mood or feeling especially grumpy, my sister is really quick to want to fix it for me. And she's my big sister. Of course, she wants to fix it for me. And and that doesn't make me mad. But lately she's been like, yeah, that sucks, you know. And sometimes that's all you need to hear. And my husband's always see. And it's so funny because business partnerships are so much like marriages and I feel like we've done a podcast episode on this, but I can't remember when or where. But so so yeah, anyway, I'm business partnerships, going into a business partnership is a lot like being married, if not more so because sometimes there's more money involved or more on the line in some ways. So anyway, don't go into a partnership lightly. That's a whole other episode that we may have already recorded.

Emily Thompson 34:31
We've at least talked about doing one we'll have to go back and look for ourselves. But yeah, having doing partnerships is huge. I was recently reading an article, I want to say maybe it was an ink magazine or one of their online articles or like Forbes or entrepreneur or something. And they were talking about how, how men are so much more quick to partner than women are and how that's one of the reasons why men and business are generally more successful than women, or at least they're more successful men than women. And that partly being because men will partner so much more easily with women. And I think so much of that probably has to do with one the communication level. I mean, I think men, men talk business a lot more in a really they

Kathleen Shannon 35:17
just kind of say what they mean. They do not like running into nuances or expressions see the way she looked at me?

Emily Thompson 35:28
Yeah, I mean, there's, they have a whole other way of communicating. And it really makes me think and like really proud of like you and I for doing this too, because we decided to this way before I read that article, and that, it's not an easy thing to do, especially for women, especially for creatives. We all like, have our work that we protect, because we put so much of ourselves into it and allowing someone else to come in on that can usually be really, really hard to do. But if you can do it, really great things can happen. And it's all about, you know, communicating well

Kathleen Shannon 36:05
munication communication, communication, basically, just talk it out. But you know, sometimes I get really sick of talking, I'm like, Oh my god, can we just do some work. But you know, like, those meetings are really important. And so along with kind of talking meat for me, and Tara, along with talking about our goals and dreams and kind of more of that big vision stuff. We also always reassess probably on a quarterly basis, what our roles within our company are. I think that that's really, really important and saying, This is what I do. Oftentimes, we feel guilty, because Tara is really good at just getting into the daily grind and hammering out all of our client work. Meanwhile, I'm really good at holding our vision in mind, creating new products like the branding ecourse, or, you know, venturing into this podcast with you. I'm more of that kind of big dreamer visionary. That's not to say I'm not doing stuff. I'm also in a lot of meetings. And I'm in so many meetings, and that was making my sister feel guilty. She was like, Oh, my gosh, I feel like I should be moving and shaking and in these meetings, and I was like, Oh my gosh, well, I feel like I should be like hunkering down and pushing some pixels. And so I think finding a partner that really complements your, what you need is really great. But then also recognizing that you guys might have different work styles, or even different working hours, and recognizing that that is totally okay, but just kind of outline what that is. And if it ever feels unfair, like Emily, you and I even are always having conversations like this, the workload feel fair, because we're pulling in both of our teams to help with the being boss podcast, and just making sure that it feels evenly distributed. And so because we've talked about it early, and often, I feel like we've opened the door for the conversation if there ever is a problem, and that it's not going to get bottled up to the point of resentment. Before we talk about it.

Emily Thompson 38:07
Yeah, well, and I think part of that, too, is choosing like, choosing the partner wisely. Like, looks like Laura, you do have a partner already. Oh, she dies. Okay, good. So you know, you're already in it. I hope it's good.

Unknown Speaker 38:23
That's my sister is her sister.

Emily Thompson 38:25
Oh, that's right. That's right. So it is your sister. But if you are looking to partner with someone, it's one of those things that you don't do lightly. I mean, you have to find someone that you can communicate with that has a personality that will mesh with yours. You know, I wouldn't have gotten you to do this podcast with me if I didn't like you, Kathleen.

Kathleen Shannon 38:44
Gotcha. I like you, Emily. And I would just say that if you continue to not see eye to eye on most things, dissolve the partnership. It's that's okay, too.

Emily Thompson 38:55
Yeah, partnerships all about a shared vision, you have to have a shared vision and want to get to the same goals. And if it's not the same goals, you talk about them and find the middle ground. And if they're if it's not either, I then your business is not going to be cohesive and succinct and probably not gonna make it too far. So um, so Yeah, I agree with that. If you don't see it, I often think about alternatives just break up.

Kathleen Shannon 39:21
Okay, let's go on to our last question. Here we go. This is kind of a long one. And this is from a listener that I met whenever I was speaking at the giant conference in Charleston, South Carolina. And she was really super sweet. So the beam boss podcast has been an amazing resource at this crazy time of change for me, career has never been a bit better, pretty happy with life and progressing on track with my first pregnancy. The podcast has provided a point of view that is really needed in the conversation of career and life balance for women. I just want to pipe in and say we're for men too, but The episodes that stand out to me were the ones where you and Emily give some much needed insights real talk about and around being a creative professional while still being a mom of the Day in the Life creating your own maternity leave, creating passive income and handling sleep deprivation. In particular, I have really been struggling with feeling an incredible amount of guilt while advancing my career while being pregnant and wanting to balance my own individualism while prepping to be a mom. While I have received support in my own personal tribe, I've also experienced a surprising amount of passive judgment from well intentioned close friends. In particular friends question why I would even consider taking on an advanced role at work when I am prepping for maternity leave and possibly taking some time off. Also, it would be awesome to hear more in depth suggestions for new moms that are considering possibly transitioning from full time employee creative positions to possibly starting a new creative venture to have more time at home. Okay, I Alright, this is from Meghan. Alright, first off, to like interrupt myself to say that I cannot imagine like having a baby and then starting a business to have more time at home. Like that is just for me. Completely mutually exclusive. I have not been shy to say that my baby is in daycare, and I cannot do it if he wasn't. So that's the first like, big part of that for me is um, yeah, daycare.

Emily Thompson 41:38
Oh, let's see. And my flip side of that is, and maybe that's just the place in life where you are at the moment, but I know like whenever I had Lily, I was I was younger. I was finishing up college. I was actually running my first like creative business. I had started a jewelry business that was just bosses hell on Etsy was this I

Unknown Speaker 41:59
am on the tanning salon.

Emily Thompson 42:01
And this was Sunday, we're gonna share that story. But I like the idea of like, I think

Kathleen Shannon 42:07
I think you've told it like, our first or second episodes, you told the tanning salon story. Oh, okay.

Emily Thompson 42:13
Well go back and listen to me want to hear about that. But But no, this is after the tanning salon. And before I started designing websites, I had a jewelry business that that was on Etsy. And I started it right after Lily was born. And I started it because I needed a creative outlet. Like that's really basically what it was. And I started selling some locally, I started doing doing Etsy and it grew really like grew to the size where I shut it down. Because I couldn't keep up with it. I didn't know how to like systemize and do so to shut it down. And and whenever I did that, again, like with the first question, there is a level of hustle that you do when you have to and when you want something so bad. And for me, I was not going to go to work. Whenever I had Lily, I was one of those moms that was always going to homeschool. So I was I was not going to send her to daycare, I have sent her daycare and she has went to school. So it's not like attachment issues. It's just what I want to do with my life. And so I started this, this jewelry business, I started a business and it was going really really well while having a child and finishing college. And so on the flip side of that if even if I had at that time, been able to similarly to daycare I probably would not have and for me at that moment. It was hard but it's it's doable and and I had looks from people and I had you know again family thinking that I was a little bit nuts trying to juggle all these things. I've always been a juggler, I guess even like early college I always had more than one job. But but it is doable. If you can put your kid into daycare and you want to go for it, absolutely go for it. But but it is possible to start a business while raising a kid doing a full time job and or a side hustle that comes becomes a full time job. But really think about it. Because it is not a walk in the park. I mean having a kid one is the toughest job you'll ever have. And then starting a business is the second toughest job that you will ever have. And doing both of those at the same time is not something that most sane people would choose.

Kathleen Shannon 44:45
Yeah, you know, I'm gonna go off track a little bit here. So my lead like brand director here at braid creative is Liz and she's also my bestie and she is on Almost to her third trimester pregnant. Yeah, yeah. And she's not the kind of person to like post a baby bump picture every week like I am. But um, anyway, it's been, it's been interesting kind of talking to her as a friend. And so I kind of just want to share some of my conversations I've had with her. And then as a boss, even making sure that I'm setting her up for success to be a Healthy Working parent with a thriving family, because I want that for her because I love her as a friend. And also, she's so talented, I cannot lose her as an employee, like so. Um, the things that I've told her and that even my sister told me while I was pregnant is that one, you don't have to have it all figured out yet. And I also want to never have it all.

Emily Thompson 45:51
Let's just throw that in there.

Kathleen Shannon 45:52
And I mentioned that my sister with winner she was pregnant with her first child who is now 11 and got a promotion whenever she was nine months pregnant to creative director at her advertising agency. And so she gave birth went on maternity leave, I think she had to write one television script while on maternity leave, like kind of like a rush thing. But um, but she totally did it. And I will say she chose daycare also. But it was a little different. Because, um, I feel like there's more of a national conversation happening now about women and maternity leave. And so even, there's like, even probably some flexibility working for someone else. And so that's what I'm trying to give Liz, who is our designer and brand director and writer, she does a lot of things. Anyway, I'm trying to give her a lot of flexibility. And just say you don't have to have it all figured out that you might have the baby and decide that daycare is absolutely for you, I really didn't know, I really truly imagine being a work from home mom, I imagine Fox kind of being in his little bouncy and being able to have meetings on the site. And it was just not energetically possible for me. And so daycare was my solution. I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll include my posts on daycare and how hard it was to make that decision in the show notes, because it's not a decision that I took lightly. But I also don't think that there should be as much like shame or Oh, like around daycare, like as if it's the second option. Um, anyway. But I really want to talk about right now, with you Megan is the sideways glances that you're getting from your friends. And I just want to say don't take this perceived judgment as personal. These comments are much more of a reflection of your own friends fear, they probably can't imagine what it would be like to advance in a career, perhaps a creative career while having a baby. So treat their questions more like curiosity. And I think that the root of it is really that you may not know where you stand on the whole thing, and that you're just as scared about it as they are. And they're just poking at a sensitive spot. So I think recognizing that as a sensitive spot and blink are right, you know, but hopefully, hopefully talking about it and hearing hopefully other bosses talking about it and saying, Yeah, daycare, or Yeah, I work from home, no big deal. Um, and then I just want to say that pregnancy and imagining what it will be like to have this baby is in some ways more complicated than just having the baby and living life as it unfolds. Right. And so that's what like, I had so much anticipation, and excitement and fear about what life with baby would be like. And there were so many variables that I could not anticipate, like the year without sleep, I could not have anticipated that my baby would not sleep for a year. And so of all the things I imagined going insane over sleep deprivation was not one of them. So I guess that's a you know, it's kind of a cliche that you like, you can't prepare, but

Emily Thompson 49:01
you have no idea what it's gonna be like, you have no idea. Like how the baby's

Kathleen Shannon 49:06
see Hi, feel you might be taken for surprise. But But mostly if you can just be confident in your choices, and treat the questions and judgment like curiosity, I think that you'll be you'll be in a much better place for for handling all that, I

Unknown Speaker 49:23
guess.

Emily Thompson 49:25
Yeah. And I want to I want to even go back to what you were saying a minute ago about nothing being permanent because i think i think this is one of those things that you have to think about here too. Like whenever you're pregnant hormones making saint crazy things.

Unknown Speaker 49:38
Oh,

Unknown Speaker 49:39
man, what was it? Like?

Kathleen Shannon 49:42
There are so many things I emailed me and I was like this is bullshit

Unknown Speaker 49:45
like with

Kathleen Shannon 49:47
like an affiliate situation. Course. She is like you're pregnant, you need to calm down, which is kind of like telling a girl that she's on her period like you're on your period. You know, like, what that is not okay. But there is a truth like, it does kind of make you hormonal.

Emily Thompson 50:04
Right? So hormones are real, real thing. And while you may think, you know, should I advance my career, like what's going to make me a better mom and wife maybe or just like human being, because that's something that I feel a lot of. A lot of moms fall in the trap of all the hormones and like everyone, people stop asking you about yourself, they start asking you how the baby is like that is totally going to be a thing. You can't forget who you are. And you can't forget that this, this idea of permanence is not there, like your baby will grow up, you will still need a career if you want to keep a career, which is something that a lot of people, a lot of my a lot of my high school friends and things I know has run into where they they get all caught up into having babies and then maybe start growing up. And then they are just left with high school diplomas, or maybe a college degree that they haven't done anything with, and that they forgot to remember to have balance in their life. So you know, whenever you end up being an empty nester, like start thinking about what you want, whenever those like later times come because you're not going to have a newborn forever. Within 18 months, you're going to want to send them off to daycare, and then what are you going to be left with so be thinking about those things. As a mom, you have to plan for your baby's future, you also have to plan for your own. And I feel like that's been one of the things in my life that has kept me as productive as I am. While having a kid that we do. Now homeschool, is the idea that I haven't forgotten who I am. And I have not allowed David to forget who he is. And because of that we're all our own individual productive and happy people, which I think is super important. So you're pregnant now you will not be pregnant forever. Soon a baby's gonna pop out and he or she will be adorable and spend tons of time loving on them. But also remember to love on yourself too. Yeah, I

Kathleen Shannon 52:10
think that you know, going back to crystals question and just the sacrifice and stuff like that. I think I'm still kind of in my shit a little bit. Not that is shitty, like I love. I love having a baby. And I love having a career and I love doing both at the same time. But there is a certain amount of like, I feel a little bit like a gorilla and like I've got my little baby gorilla on my arm at all times.

You know that even I'm okay. This actually legitimately helped me the other day I was watching or my mom sent me a link to a video of a mama gorilla, meaning her baby gorilla because I just thought like, well in nature baby gorillas are probably breastfeeding for like 15 years, whatever. And it's his mom, gorilla and the baby gorillas maybe like a year. I mean, it looks like still baby baby. And it's trying to like get to the baby. And the mom gorilla is like swatting away at that baby. She's like, no, and like crossing her arms, like my, like my boobies back off. And the baby girl is throwing a tantrum on the floor. And I was like, Well, there you go. Anyway, look that Mama grilla was remembering who she was in that moment, too. Yeah. So like, I know, like, even just seeing that, like in nature, even animals are maintaining their identity like we as human beings should be eliminating our identity as well. But there is a certain amount of attachment that happens. Probably for a while I'm still in the middle of it. So I don't really know. But let's say you Emily and your family, it seems like you guys really have maintained that balance and that having a career has been an investment in who you are. And then also a financial investment. I even remember thinking whenever I was weighing all my options, while I was pregnant, that if I had a nanny, even if I was paying, I don't know, half or two thirds of my salary towards having a nanny that it was an investment more than a cost because then I would still be able to maintain my career, which would keep going even after the baby started going to school. Yeah,

Emily Thompson 54:17
well, and I did that too. That was something that I did for a long time. I remember like us having that conversation years ago, I remember whenever I lived in the mountains, and we used to talk it was so long ago. But I did the same thing. I had a girl Come in, I don't know, two, three times a week. She'd come in and just like hang out with Willie and read some books. And whenever Lilly would go down for a nap, sometimes she'd come down and like help me file stuff away. And I mean, there are tons of things that you can do you you have to find the balance that works for you. And I think that's probably literally the overarching like theme for all three of these questions is everyone has their own personal balance. You know, Kathleen has done One way I've done it another every single person has, has succeeded. Every human on the planet right now is here because of generations of success. And doing and doing it. So instead, you have to think like, you have to find the balance that's going to work for you and what it is that you want out of your life. So make some goals, which is like false 101 like make goals, figure out what it is that you have to do to get there if for you, it's it's driving your career forward, then put things in place while you're pregnant. And just after that will keep your career going. If it's advancement, put more of those things in there that will keep your career going to

Kathleen Shannon 55:42
jump in and say to you like, this is a little woowoo. But yeah, I found as I was pregnant, and as my body was growing, and this baby was growing, a lot of things were growing around me my business was growing. And so for Megan, it sounds like her career is growing, and that she's being offered a more advanced role at work like this is not surprising to me. And just because you're pregnant does that's not a disability. Or even if it's sorry, that's probably not right to say either. Even if you were disabled, like you were still able to advance at work. But um, but pregnancy isn't a like, what it's not a virus, it's not an illness, it's not something that should keep you from working and working hard and working like a creative badass like you are whether or not you work for yourself, or work in the context of a company or for someone else.

Unknown Speaker 56:34
That's my

Emily Thompson 56:37
I completely agree a little bit parallel that like, you know, if you're getting these chances, no pregnancy is it's a woowoo thing for a woman I mean, you the energy and emotions and creation of a baby in your belly. Like if that equates in your universe to to, you know, driving your career forward. provide for that baby by having a career that's balanced with you being a badass mom.

Unknown Speaker 57:08
And then finally, I

Kathleen Shannon 57:09
just kind of want to touch touch on Megan's question about transitioning from full time employee creative positions to possibly starting a new creative venture to have more time at home. You talked a little bit about that Emily and kind of starting a new creative venture while Lily was an infant newborn. But I also want to say that

Unknown Speaker 57:31
what do I want to say?

Kathleen Shannon 57:33
I don't I think wait and see. I think that's what I wanted to say is wait and see. Like Don't be quick anything yet. I have I even have a friend. And I feel like she's fully confident in her in her choice. But she was a yoga teacher and sold her yoga studio while she was pregnant. And I feel like maybe that was a hormone Yeah, like a decision to make while pregnant. Because you just don't know how it's going to be so don't quit your job yet. Have the baby wait and see nothing is permanent. No, and then and then I think for transitioning from a full time employee position to starting your new venture is kind of what everyone is struggling with kids are no it's like when do I have time to do all of it and that we've covered a lot of

Emily Thompson 58:27
time as last time

Unknown Speaker 58:31
All right. Anything else?

Emily Thompson 58:34
I don't think so. That was fun. If If you guys have any other questions for us, we Kathleen and I love getting them. You can go to love being boss comm slash contact and we have a forum there where you can just shoot us questions she does. topic ideas, if we don't answer your question online, or online, on the podcast, which is available online. We do sort of put those away and enjoy compiling those into these sort of like I don't know like listener coaching sessions, almost a reader question so if you have anything that you would like to hear us chat about, you can go to loving boss comm and enter your suggestions there.

Kathleen Shannon 59:13
We also have a super active Facebook group with over 2800 members now. So the other day someone asked a question, I can't even remember what it was about, maybe, um, maybe like getting off of Etsy or something along those lines. And she got 29 responses in like five minutes. It's insane the amount of support and uplifting that is happening in that being boss Facebook group. I'm so grateful that that has grown bigger than I could ever imagine. So join our Facebook group too and ask us questions there. Ask your fellow bosses some questions.

Emily Thompson 59:51
Yeah, certainly. The Facebook group is insane are also doing some Twitter chats. Those are usually being held on Wednesday evenings at 6pm Central. We're talking about the episode of the week. So if you'd like to join us on Twitter, you can follow me at Emily m underscore Thompson. All the questions are coming from there. And you can also follow Kathleen and Kathleen.

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:17
And then also, Caitlin, who is our amazing assistant,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:21
you can't have her. I'm just kidding. She's nothing. That's you,

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:26
Emily. I'm saying that to all of our listeners. Um, Caitlin has been kind of managing the Twitter chat from the braid account. And so that is at braid creative. And because of my own work life balance, I am often not available but try to pop in whenever I can. Alright, guys, this has been a good one. If you like being boss, be sure to sign up for our newsletter at love being boss calm, where you'll get episode worksheets, secret content, and other goodies delivered straight to your inbox every week. Again, that's love being boss calm. Do the work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.