Kathleen Shannon 0:01
Hello and welcome to being boss,
Emily Thompson 0:04
a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. I'm Emily Thompson.
Kathleen Shannon 0:07
And I'm Kathleen Shannon.
Arianna Taboada 0:10
I'm Arianna and I am being boss.
Kathleen Shannon 0:18
Today we are talking with Arianna Tabata about being pregnant and being boss and building a family while you're building a business. As always, you can find all the tools, books and links we referenced on the show notes at being boss dot club. Alright, you guys have heard us talk a lot about fresh books, cloud accounting, we love it, we use it. But what you might not know is that the all new fresh books makes ridiculously easy accounting software that's completely transformed how freelancers and small business owners deal with their day to day paperwork, it's been redesigned from the ground up and custom built for exactly the way that you work. So get ready for the simplest way to be more productive, organized and most importantly, get paid quickly. freshbooks is for owners, not accountants, they've designed their product for the owners who don't want to learn accounting and instead want to focus on what they love to do. You can try fresh books for free today and they're offering you guys a 30 day unrestricted free trial to claim it Just go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section? I use them I love them. I trust them and I wouldn't recommend them to you guys if I didn't truly think that it would change the way you handle your accounting invoices and keeping track of your expenses. Again go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section. Ariana is a maternal health consultant who works with experienced entrepreneurs who are becoming first time mothers, helping them customize their maternity leave, plan and return to work. She is deeply committed to providing ongoing multifaceted support that meets the professional, physical, mental, social, and emotional needs of entrepreneurs as a baby proof their business and navigate new motherhood. Prior to her consulting practice, Ariana worked on maternal health issues for over a decade as a health educator, a social worker and a mental health clinic, a reproductive health researcher and a yoga therapist. She draws from her expertise as a maternal health professional combined with her experience as a business owner and mother to provide highly personalized services. So expecting entrepreneurs have the tools and information they need to make decisions and take action when it comes to balancing their business with a new baby. Arianna, thank you so much for joining us. We're so excited to have you on the show.
Arianna Taboada 2:44
I'm thrilled to be here, ladies.
Kathleen Shannon 2:47
So let's just dive right in. Because we have a lot of our listeners who are mom bosses, or maybe they're thinking about starting a family or they might be pregnant for the first or second or third time, but their context of their business has changed. And they're trying to figure out how to make it all work, how to have a family and you know, have a business at the same time. So we're super curious to dig right in. Can you share us your top three tips for baby proofing your business while you are newly pregnant or maybe even planning on starting a family?
Arianna Taboada 3:22
Sure thing so I went back and thought about over the years really what's worked for people what hasn't worked so well and made a list of really the things that I see are tried and true. You can tweak them to work for you and your business. So let's let's dive right in. Um, second trimester is like the golden hour for baby proofing you know, if you have a rough first trimester I spent I think like four months just chillin next to the toilet. Write it happens and so the time when you start feeling like you have a little more energy, that's a great time to really, you know, hit the ground running in terms of thinking through the systems that you need, what you can batch what you can automate what you can outsource what you can delegate if you have a team and to really document your your systems, your procedures and test chest test what it's like to to have you a little bit more hands off. And I like to say second trimester specifically because you know, full term is considered 37 weeks. And you know, a lot of time we're in the mindset of we're gonna work until baby comes and sometimes. I mean, we all three of us, probably no baby comes from baby wants to come.
Kathleen Shannon 4:47
My baby came like three weeks late he was he was fine or that letting me wrap some work up before he came. It wasn't three weeks, it was 10 days, but something that you just said. That kind of blew my mind a little bit. And I can't believe I've never thought of it was actually testing your systems before you have the baby. I felt like whenever I was pregnant, I was just setting things up and making plans. But that there were no dress rehearsals, there were no trial runs. I was just counting on that it would all work itself out. But I love the idea of a trial run.
Arianna Taboada 5:23
Yeah, I mean, if you already have the team in place, or if you've already found someone who can take the stuff on you, yeah, that's your ass, it will be awesome to take a little pilot test. And, you know, just work out the kinks and see what you know, hopefully, fingers crossed that it all goes as planned. But if there's little things that need to be worked out, then you aren't working it out with a newborn on the boob.
Emily Thompson 5:48
Right. I never thought about that either. I love that. And I feel like that's also really practical for like, non mom bosses like testing out your systems like that is really important. But especially at that time like that second trimester when you do have all the energy, supposedly, ish. I was one of those people. I never got morning sick, ever. It never happened. But I felt queasy for nine months. It was awful.
Kathleen Shannon 6:15
That's the same way Emily like I never got sick. But I was. So I remember I slept my way through three vacations in my first trimester, because I got pregnant a little bit earlier than I was planning on. And I was on all these like awesome summer vacations and just slept my way through them
Unknown Speaker 6:34
at a hotel. Yeah, enjoying the beautiful air conditioning.
Unknown Speaker 6:42
Emily Thompson 6:43
Alright, so that's a perfect tip number one, what's your next tip?
Arianna Taboada 6:48
Second tip is what I call transition time. So relates to the first one in terms of giving yourself transition time to transition out of your business. But I also think that it's you know, self employed mom bosses being a boss in general, we have kind of the the privilege, I think of not having to have a traditional maternity leave where we are completely off one day and completely back to work and on the next day. And so transition time back into your business is something that I hugely advocate for. So the same way that you would kind of test out your business systems, giving yourself a buffer to test out child care with you not having to be on client calls, not having to work on deliverables, allowing yourself to test you know what it feels like to do kid drop off if you're doing daycare. So giving yourself space to really develop your working mom identity and your your chops, so to speak. On the other end.
Emily Thompson 7:57
I love that. So I feel like one of the questions that we get most often around this is how much should I plan on doing or not doing after I have the baby? And my quote, my answer is always like plan for more than you expect, where you are not doing anything. But even then I think my answer has always been driven by the by the traditional idea of you are on maternity leave, and then you are right back at it. But this idea of like just sort of dipping your toes back in and slowly getting yourself back into the waters is a really great way of looking at that. And that way you can take off as much as you need, but maybe start dipping into email during nap time in a couple of weeks, or then taking on client calls or whatever. That's fantastic idea.
Arianna Taboada 8:45
Because I also honestly find that when like when your business is your baby, so to speak your business baby, that it's hard and you don't even really want to be totally hands off for this, you know, random assigned number of weeks that, you know, no one has decided what is the perfect number, but if you have the ability to figure out what's the right number of weeks for you, you can totally I mean I did, I'm happy to share a little bit of the personal yeah here but I did do six weeks, totally hands off. And then I went back for eight hours a week. So two days, four days, four hours each day. And then I added a third day. And then I bumped my hours that for each of those days and then I added a fourth day every other week. So I was like totally you know making walking the road as as I was making it and trying to figure out what worked and that I've seen be successful for other women as well to to scale up the return back to work and being able to early on do the things that you love but not having the pressure of having to do everything in one fell swoop.
Kathleen Shannon 9:58
I think that that's a really great point and I was kind of similar Ariana, I probably started working around six weeks even though technically I was giving myself eight weeks of maternity leave. And one of the things I did at six weeks was not jump right into client work, but work on things that I really loved working on that I had a little bit more flexibility. So I was creating content, I was writing blog posts, and I've noticed a lot of my creative friends are kind of doing similar things, whenever they get back into the work that they're doing. They're doing the things that really fuels them and really gives them energy and doesn't deplete it.
Emily Thompson 10:36
Right. And I also imagine that whenever you come back from a time like that, like I think of like, most recently, we took December off. And there are the things that come up for you first, like the things that you want to get back and do for me, it wasn't you know, hitting my inbox. Like, that's not fun, by any means. But it was getting back in. And for us, it was like starting outlining the book, and getting some of that getting started on that really creative stuff. So that you can get yourself back into it, doing the work that really like gives you the energy to keep going as opposed to the stuff that once you spend two hours in your inbox, you're going to be angrier, or more depleted. If you're one of those people who don't love your inbox, then you are if you're doing the creative work that really drives you. So I like that idea of, of stepping back into it slowly but also focusing on the work that you want to do most.
Arianna Taboada 11:30
I could not agree more I you also it gives you a chance to like grasp at this in the midst of such chaotic change and trying to figure out who the hell you are, well sleep deprived, and there's all these new responsibilities that gives you a sense of right, this was my identity, this is still part of my identity, even if it's not kind of what is on my mind. 24 seven, and I have this whole other set of responsibilities, but it it it gives a sense of grounding to Who am I as a professional, not only as a mother, when when the mother part feels a bit overwhelming.
Kathleen Shannon 12:08
Love that. Okay, what is your third tip for baby proofing your business.
Arianna Taboada 12:12
So third tip is, is a no brainer. But I find that it literally goes you know, right above our heads sometimes is that when when you're your boss, when you are the boss, you are your biggest asset for your business. And so to make a plan to be taken care of. So you're worrying about and planning for taking care of your business. While you're doing that taking the time, looking up the resources, finding the support to make sure that you have your your network of support and those who are going to take care of you.
Kathleen Shannon 12:48
I cannot agree with this one more. And whenever you were talking earlier about dipping back into business and even handing off your child to daycare, it got me thinking about daycare and finding support systems to help take care of your child. But then during that time, whenever you're dipping your toe back into it, using them that time to take care of yourself. So maybe the first couple of weeks, if you are dropping your kid off at daycare, it's not necessarily or maybe your mom's coming over to watch the baby, whatever your situation might look like. It's not necessarily going into the coffee shop and hopping on your computer and doing work. It might actually be going to the gym or hitting up the sauna or getting a massage doing or taking a nap. Oh yeah, so
Unknown Speaker 13:31
Kathleen Shannon 13:33
when is yourself, you guys I was so anti napping whenever the baby naps. I'm just gonna throw this out there because that's the kind of advice I was constantly getting was to nap when the baby nap sleeping, the baby sleeps, and I'm like, you know what I'd like to feel like myself. When the baby is sleeping. I would like to watch some Netflix. I would like to go to the gym. I like to do other things in my life. The first time
Arianna Taboada 13:56
I left my kid alone, I got a massage. That was pretty great.
Emily Thompson 14:01
Right? I think the first time I ever had like real time out. I remember god this is so long ago for me to guys. It's like a whole other life ago. But David and I went and had tacos and Margarita has is like one of the first memories I have of having those moments. So maybe less napping and more Margarita is if that's your jam.
Kathleen Shannon 14:23
So I wouldn't go back to the first point of delegating and having these trial runs. I think that for a lot of bosses who might be listening to this, they have been solopreneurs for a while and doing everything themselves. This might be their first, you know, go at even building a team or asking for help. And it might even be something that makes them uncomfortable asking for help with their baby. You know, so I would love to talk about how to hone your delegation skills not only in work but in life whenever it comes to your family. Do you have any advice or What's around that?
Arianna Taboada 15:02
Um, yeah. Let's figure out where to start? Well, I mean, I think they're they're very transferable. You hinted at this a little, but I use the exact same system to find a nanny as I did to find a VA. I was like, I've never hired a nanny before, I have no idea how to do this. And I was like, but I have hired a VA. And so I went back and looked at my system, and realize that it that I was most comfortable when it came to business, finding someone based off of referrals. So even though I had, you know, in depth job description that I could, you know, put out there blasted on Facebook, Upwork, whatever, what have you, I wanted to go the referral route. And so I said, Okay, let's try that out for the nanny too. And it ended up working out really well. So I would say that you, you probably have have the skills that it takes to to outsource and delegate, even if you're not giving yourself credit for for knowing how to do that.
Emily Thompson 16:08
I want to throw in here that my first day and he also helped with a lot of my assistant work, which is like a fun crossover to she would come and she would help with help with Lily while I was doing some work. But if Lily was ever napping, she would come down and help me file papers, or helped me like address envelopes for clients like letters and those sorts of things. So there can be a real crossover there, or at least is exactly the same process for hiring a nanny as it is hiring a VA it's just the workload is a little bit different.
Arianna Taboada 16:43
Yeah, and I'm a big believer in like making a list of all of the possible things that if it was not on your plate, would it make your life easier, and there's a lot of stuff that fits in that category? Like you said, the the paper filing the in my house, it's like the fridge cleaning. And just start with if you know you're going to end up with a big old list and start somewhere, right that is that is the biggest takeaway is start with one thing, and then see what you can add on from there.
Kathleen Shannon 17:16
One thing I really want to touch on is daycare and childcare. I think that we've all had different situations. Emily, you started working for yourself because you wanted to keep your baby at home with you. I did not. I thought I might like Well, I was pregnant. I didn't know. And I remember asking all my mom friends who had businesses, like how do I know what I'm gonna want to do? What if I have this baby, and I decide I want to quit my job and just be Earth Mother at home.
Emily Thompson 17:43
That was always one of my biggest fears. Right, Kathleen? And I remember having this conversation where I was like, Kathleen, I have this fear that you will it could go one of two ways. One, she was either gonna, like do exactly what she ended up doing and like returning to work and bossing out and doing the things. I was like, I also like, have this vision of you like sitting in a corner with your baby like wrapped around your baby and never getting up. So total like Earth Mother Hurmati adorable mom who can't get enough.
Kathleen Shannon 18:15
And you know, it's funny whenever I think about my life, and whenever I think about my work, and whenever I think about Fox, both of those things come to mind. Like it really turned out to not be an either or situation. I whenever I think about Fox, I do think about being wrapped up with him. I think about in those early days nursing him all night long. I think about just really all the cuddles that we got in. And at the same time I think about daycare and, and outsourcing and delegating some of my childcare, which I know can be a really, really tough choice for some women. So Arianna, I'm curious. And I do want to come back to daycare because I have a few thoughts I want to share on that. But I'm Arianna I want to hear from you kind of what you say to new moms who are scared or even. Even some bosses who are listening who might be thinking about starting a family but they're not because they're afraid that if they start a family, it means that their career is going to be ruined. Like what kind of advice or mindset shifts Could you give them to think about it in a new way?
Arianna Taboada 19:19
I'll pass on the sage wisdom that was given to me. And that was that waiting around for the perfect time. It will never arrive. But there's when you know whatever the time that you choose is your going to make it perfect for you. It's there's no bad choices here. There's just the choice that you make. And and if you need to pivot, you can pivot, right there's very few decisions that are you know, totally, irrevocably, you can never ever take it back when you make a decision and you end up in a situation that you didn't think was for Are you then trust that you have the skills, the confidence, the grace, to really find what you need to be able to shift out of the current situation and, and build a new one for yourself, it takes sometimes it takes the right support. Sometimes it takes, you know, crying on the shoulder, a few good friends or colleagues. But it is it is figured out double is what I would say.
Emily Thompson 20:27
Agreed. And just to like, I don't know, share some things, too. I tried them all. Like I remember very early on, I relied on family. And one of the things I learned there is having like and Kathleen, I think you experienced this too, having having a schedule for Family Assistance, where they know that they're going to come over and hang out with grandkids, like every Thursday, right, whatever time I think is really helpful for that sort of scenario. So I started with that. And it worked. All right. I felt personally that I was putting strain on those, like, on the relationship that I had with my parents. So I ended up starting my business and staying at home with Lily. And then I got a nanny, which I love that scenario a ton.
Kathleen Shannon 21:12
And your Nando camp to your your nanny came to your house, right, Emily? Yes.
Emily Thompson 21:15
Oh, yes, it was so in home, so she'd come over and hang out. And I loved her. She's still a friend of mine. She's super fantastic. It was a great experience for everyone involved. And then we set Lily to like part time daycare for a little while, which we also loved. I thought it was really great. It was a really great arranger of everyone. The daycare was really close to our house and work. And that was at a time in my business, where I was really like doubling down on a lot of things I needed Lily, like off somewhere. That worked really great. And then it was about time for I guess, kindergarten, yeah, kindergarten, which is full time daycare, basically. And that's where I hit a place where it was inconvenient for me. And also not a great experience. Really, for anyone involved. And that brought me back to homeschooling, which is something that I always wanted to do. I was one of those pregnant people who like, you know, some people are like, super hardcore breastfeeding, or like, whatever it is you preach, I was preaching homeschool, like that was what I was going to do as a pregnant homeschooled from the womb. Right, exactly. So Lily went through kindergarten, which was great, for some reasons, and then we decided to bring her own. But even now, like she has enough things out in the world, where it's still kind of part time daycare like that's, that's what we found. So we tested every single option along the way over the years, and found what worked for us and none of it like caused irreparable damage. And none of it like wrecked any relationships, or I hope none of it causes a need for therapy in the future. But we definitely like put ourselves through the paces, checked out all the options and found the scenario that worked right for all of us. And I think if you take my usual test and change mindset into this as well, then you'll find what works for you. And there's no reason to like feel overly judgmental or afraid or anything, you just got to treat it like every other decision you make.
Kathleen Shannon 23:20
Yeah, this is something that both of you have brought up is really being able to trust yourself that you'll be able to make the decisions and you can always change your mind. And I remember that was one of the things that brought me the most peace whenever it came to even worrying about oh my gosh, what if this ruins my career, I trusted that I could figure it out. Like if I decided that I had the baby and I didn't want to work anymore. That would be my decision at the time. And I would be perfectly okay with letting go of my business. I mean, maybe not. So here's another thing that someone said to me recently that I thought was really brilliant. I wish I could remember who said it. But it was that you're going to mourn your decisions. Like no matter what the decision is, there's always something to mourn. So even whenever you're having a baby, guess what you're gonna have to mourn your life, as it was whenever you were able to do anything you wanted. Anytime you wanted, you're going to mourn your sleep. But you have this whole other thing that you can focus your attention on. And it's going to be worth it for you like and you have to trust that it's going to be worth it for you. And people have to have this. This happens with people even whenever they quit a day job, they have to mourn the security that comes with a steady paycheck. And now they're going to embrace creative entrepreneurship. So no matter what decision you make, there's always going to be something on the other side that you're gonna have to mourn a little bit but it will be okay. And you can always change your mind.
Arianna Taboada 24:41
Yeah, greed. That is huge. I was just at a conference where we were talking about motherhood and grief. And that it's like the shed no one tells you when you are pregnant, like is that you will be in a constant state of mourning. And you have to learn how to hold that simultaneously with this constant Then excitement and new growth and change. And learning how to hold both is so important. Yeah,
Kathleen Shannon 25:09
that's such a good point. And I think that's one of the ways that I really grew in becoming a mom was learning how to hold both like holding this new identity of being a mom with my old identity of being a wild carefree adventurer. And I think that that's just such a good, interesting point, and that there is a lot of grief and mourning that comes with having a baby, hopefully, not so much that you're balling all the time, but even if you are, there's help for you there as well. Alright, so I want to talk about though, after you have a baby, or maybe even before you have the baby, what are the best ways to build both in your business and in your personal life support networks? And, and just how do you start to like gather that help that you need.
Arianna Taboada 26:01
So I use a little something called an eco map. And if you're a visual person, that eco map is great. And if you're a list person, you can learn how to use the Eco map and build your list into it. But if you you know, if you imagine for a minute, it's it's circles, around circles around circles, so concentric circle design, and you're at the minute you're at the middle, and you start thinking about in your immediate surroundings, who who can you lean on. So sometimes it's family, sometimes it's friends, sometimes, especially if you're a business owner, you're like, I have no one in my family, you know, that I can physically reach out and touch. So then we know it's a gap. And you need to fill in that gap with, you know, local supports, you can reach out and see if there's a local mom's group you can if you know, if we're going into a Kathleen, what you mentioned, if you're crying all the time and find yourself at the need professional support help you can figure out where are the mental health and maternal mental health specialists in my area. And so he started that intimate level and then we go out and I do this with all my clients, we go out to the next concentric circle and we think about family or friends or other you know, business comes into this a lot of times colleagues business besties, who you can reach out to and rely on for other types of support. Sometimes it's you know, people will give you as a present a kind of grocery store, delivery package, or people will send home cooked meals or people can organize a meal train for you this is you hear me talking about food. This is like the number one thing that that I love to get people to think about outsourcing and those immediate postpartum months is get yourself in. But to to come back to the circle, if you think about all those different layers, like like you put an onion right the postpartum experience, you can kind of uncover what do I need immediately? What do I need in the next few weeks, who are the people that are maybe a little farther out from my immediate area that I can rely on and who are the the professionals that I might need and professionals when it comes to physical mental individual health, but also the professionals that I would need to help me as a business owner. So that gets into the outsourcing conversation for sure. And it gets into the the different levels and layers that you can start to unpack the the complexity of this transition can be mapped out really nicely. And it can be brought into lists. But it's nice to have a tool to think about all those different layers.
Kathleen Shannon 28:46
I love this so much. I literally just drew out my eco map. And on the top part of my circles, I have all my personal support, including not only people and coaches and resources along those lines, but systems, including amazon prime is on there. Right? Yeah, Blue Apron, not a sponsor of the podcast. And then on the on the bottom half, I definitely have the people that like Emily is. So on my little ecosystem. It's like my husband is on the top,
Emily Thompson 29:16
I can only help so much from here,
Kathleen Shannon 29:19
Emily and my sister on the bottom. But whenever it comes to, like if I were to get pregnant today, who would I go to first it would be Emily and my sister and my husband, right? And so they're in that like next circle. And then I've got some other co workers and creative colleagues, my Facebook communities, and then including the systems and processes that helped me automate things more and just not forgetting that those tools are there for you as well. Even if you don't have a whole lot of people in your life, you can start to create systems that will make things easier for you. I love this so much. I didn't realize how hard of a time I had asking for help until after I had my baby And you know, you talk about food. Only two people brought me food after I had my baby. And I think that people are shocked whenever I tell them that because they would imagine that ever I have so many friends and family, like, why isn't everybody bringing me food? Well, when I was super picky about what I was eating at the time, and to, I think that they just assume that I had it, because I usually do like I come across as this really super confident boss. But at some point, I had to ask for help. And for me, I remember the day that I had to really ask for help was, my husband took five weeks off with me after I had the baby. And on that six week, he started to go back to work. And I told him Don't go, he's like, Don't leave me. I'm scared. I don't know what to do. I don't, I don't have this. And so he stayed home with me for another week. And I still let my courage and after he did go back to work. I loaded the baby up in the car. And I drove down to my closest daycare that has a good reputation. So just like you were talking about Ariana, I got some references. And I walked into the daycare. And I remember Fox was so teeny tiny. And I was wearing him and like a sicura, Bloom, yellows, sleeping, and just looking around and thinking, How am I ever going to drop my baby off here to let other people take care of him? I went home and I googled reasons why daycare is awesome. And I found all the articles that I was reading. Were talking about daycare as a consolation prize, like, Oh, it's it's not so good. But here's, here's why you're going to be okay. And what I wanted was an article talking about like, no, here's why this is a really positive thing and could be even better than your baby hanging out at home with you all day, like that's the article I needed. And that article didn't exist. So I decided to write it myself. And I wanted to just share a few of those points from that article that might help some as particularly mom bosses, or women who are thinking about starting a family but are freaked out about working from home with the baby, which is a big societal expectation for creative entrepreneurs to work from home with their baby. So if you think your
Arianna Taboada 32:13
daycare permanently saved in my content library and goes out on a limb, so share away.
Kathleen Shannon 32:19
Good, okay, so good to hear. Okay, so a few things I want to tell you is that first daycare is an investment, it's not an expense, I hear so many women talking about daycare eating up their entire salary. Well, one, if you're in a partnership, and your partner is working as well, this is a shared household expense, it does not just come out of the person who gave birth to the baby, or the mom's role, you know, it doesn't just come out of your bank account, it is a shared expense. And also it's an investment. So for me, even if I'm paying 100% of my salary towards childcare, for me, recognizing that my kid is only going to be a baby for so long. At some point, he's going to be in school, or 18 years old and out of my house, like what am I doing for myself? What am I trying to build for me? And daycare affords me that time to build that thing for myself. So for me, I very much see it as an investment and not a cost or an expense. All right, point number two, and you guys feel free to interject at any point, if you have additional thoughts on any of these. We all hear that it takes a village to raise a baby. But then whenever it comes to actually having the baby people are saying things like Well, I didn't have a baby to have someone else raise it. And I think that these kinds of comments are so hurtful to women, and so hurtful to a community that wants to love and support you and your baby. So once I started taking my baby to daycare, I remember one day I walked in and I saw one of the daycare workers Her name is Taylor. And she didn't know I was there and she had Fox and she was kind of like, you know, tossing them in the air and then like kissing his cheek and I they were just having a blast together and I could tell that she really truly loved him. And I know that this isn't always the case for all people but seeing that love made me realize that by sending my son to daycare, I'm expanding his circle of people that love and care for him and and it just really got me super excited and made me feel like I was making the right choice. So that's my thoughts on it takes a village
Arianna Taboada 34:42
it does take a village and I'm gonna circle back really quick to what you mentioned when it came to only two people brought your meals is that you know the Eco map part of it is mapping it out to see for yourself what you've got, you know, your the assets and the deficit, so to speak. But the second half of it is making the asks because these people don't know that you're drawing them in as your pillars of postpartum support and the pillars to, to making your transition back to work as a success. So you have to a communicate that to them. And and I always like to tell people make a specific ask, so don't just be like, Yeah, I love your support. And please help me and please come over, like say, Yes, I want you there like five days after I give birth, doing laundry and making me some chocolate chip cookies or whatever you You mean at that moment, and let people know how they can help.
Kathleen Shannon 35:40
I love that so much. And I would say even before you have the baby, because for me a part of my frustration and exhaustion after having the baby came with, I don't want to have to delegate one more thing in my life. Like I'm already running a business like a boss, I don't even know how to ask or manage more people to do the things that I want them to do. So I would say in that second trimester golden hour, like you described it Ariana, make a list of literally your favorite foods. Make a list of how often you like to take a shower, or go to the gym, and even start to figure out the things that you could make those specific asks for, like, hey, I need you to come over and hold my baby while I go work out. Or, hey, I need you to bring me some Indian food whenever I am five days postpartum. And there's lots of cool systems and apps. Now for women postpartum for meal deliveries, I'm sure you know, more of those are Yana that people could tap into to use. Yeah,
Arianna Taboada 36:37
meal train is my favorite. Again, not a sponsor of the podcast and anyway, but it's it's basically a little calendar, crowdsourcing your meals for any kind of event. For you know, I think can can go up to a few months. So you can get I had my meal taken care of for like six weeks after the baby was born. And that was great.
Kathleen Shannon 37:00
So nice. The final thing I want to mention whenever it comes to daycare, or whatever you choose, is that it's not always perfect. And that is totally okay. So there have definitely been times whenever I remember early on Fox's breast milk got swapped with another kiddo. And so they were drinking other moms breast milk, which is fine, like, in general, I'm fine with it. But that was like what and I do think that a lot of his sleep issues did stem from some lack of structure at daycare. So like, there were things about it that I didn't super love, of course, but I worked around it. And just like you were talking about Arianna, I trusted that I could go to the daycare provider and say, Hey, this thing isn't really working for us. What are some alternatives? What are some solutions? How can we work around this, and they were more than willing to work with me on it. So and I've also changed my mind since then fox is actually not in daycare anymore, one of his teachers that he really created a bond with left to become a private nanny, and I had the opportunity to send him with her. So now he has a nanny who he loves. And it's because our context changed, he got older. And he started requiring different things, including like going on adventures or eating organic, like there are some things I didn't have control over at daycare that I now do have control over with a nanny, and it's working for us. But our context will always change as will our needs and support systems. And I can always change my mind,
Emily Thompson 38:42
when that's the thing I think I want to point out the most is that like, none of us go into this having anything figured out like we all have like these, like expectations or hopes and these like inklings of how we'll want to do it. But I think the magic of making it work is staying open to all of the possibilities. Like even think of a friend of ours who recently had a baby and like had a creative business. And I remember talking to her about like going back to work, what her plans were it she was like I don't really have plans, like I plan to be at home with a baby for the first six weeks. And then I'm just going to see what I want to do. And I think that whenever you can go into these, like the idea of having a business that you run yourself and being your own boss is that you can be as flexible as you need and want to be and you have to do some work absolutely to make that happen. But it's worth it in the fact that you can go into you know, your six weeks of maternity leave and then decide to slowly work back into it or decide to go back into it and take your kid to daycare if that's what you feel like doing. Or if it's taking another six weeks. God bless you if you can do that. I love that but it's totally possible if you put the things in place to make that happen. So it is about staying open to all the options and not closing yourself off. Because I think whatever it comes to the anxiety and overwhelm of bringing a new baby into the world and the sleep deprivation, because my God, that's such a real thing, and all the things you will naturally begin to close yourself off, that's just part of like this, this like closing yourself around your baby and protecting yourself and the baby, you close yourself off to all of the possibilities and opportunities. And the more you can work to keep yourself open to all the things that are out there. And the fact that you have a voice that you can ask for help and all of those things. One, I think the less likely it is that you'll have some postpartum depression issues, because you have these structures in place and you're tapping into them. But you're open to all of the options that there are to help you make this work. Because there are a lot of options. You just have to stay open to them.
Arianna Taboada 40:53
I think that's a skill for sure that learning to make learning to be comfortable, but also make decisions with an ever present level of uncertainty. Right.
Emily Thompson 41:05
So entrepreneurship and motherhood and all of the things I know there's so many
Kathleen Shannon 41:09
parallels. Another thing I'm gonna mention, because I was very much Pro, like going back to work and sending my baby to daycare, and I want to mention that that was my choice, that does not have to be your choice. And I've seen a lot of moms and creative entrepreneurs rocket in so many different ways. I was recently at a conference, well, actually, well over a year ago, I was at designer vaycay. And I remember Jessica hische showed up and she's like an amazing typographer. Those of you who are designers, you know who I'm talking about. Anyway, she had her baby in a carrier. And that's another thing I love about these conferences with creative entrepreneurs who are starting families is that everyone's just bring in their kid, or their kid is at home with the husband, and we're swapping stories on the side. And then there are some women there that don't have kids, and they're tapping everyone's brains being like, okay, but what's it really like? So this is another thing, it's just having a tribe of people that you can ask and have honest conversations with has been one of the most beautiful things about creating a support network more in like an emotional capacity. And just knowing that I'm not alone. And really having that time face to face with these women is so valuable. Anyway, I wanted to mention that Jessica hische. I remember she was talking, she was giving a talk with her baby in a little carrier on her chest. And she was talking about how she had been living in San Francisco for two years. And one of her friends from New York where she had lived previously texted her one morning was like, hey, do you want to grab brunch. And she was like, I've been across the country for two years, and you didn't even know. And so her point was, if you have a baby and you want to bow out for a couple of years, nobody is going to notice and nobody is going to care, you can always jump back into this thing. full force, whenever you're completely ready. Whether that's two weeks in, or three years in or 20 years in, you're going to make the choices for yourself. Alright, Arianna, let's come back to you, Emily and I have been gabbing a lot about our experience. And what should every pregnant entrepreneur know about having a baby? And how will it affect their business? Like if you could give anyone who is newly pregnant or thinking about starting a family or maybe even on their second baby, but they've just ventured into creative entrepreneurship? What What should they really know? Like, what is your best nuggets or tidbits of advice for them?
Arianna Taboada 43:43
I mean, this it totally, you know, build right on, I think the points that that we've been making in the past few minutes is that no one structure is going to work for everybody. But that also means that as as bosses, we get to decide what what the structure or structures are that that'll work for us along my trajectory of our boss and motherhood journey. And similar to the way that you figure out what shifts and pivots are needed in your business trust that that that same skill set will apply to to the to being able to you know, do do the figure out dance of what you need when it comes to parenthood. And I've seen things like maternity leave for two weeks work and I've seen it you know, extended for a year and a half work and I've seen everything in between. So know that there's not one right way that there are lots of right ways and that you'll find the right ways when you when you are walking it.
Kathleen Shannon 44:51
Okay, I have a few more questions. What about all the mom guilt? The mom guilt, like, do you ever have clients coming to you and they just feel guilty About everything.
Arianna Taboada 45:02
Well, yeah, I mean, you and I'm there, right? So you feel guilty about putting in extra hours to you know, deliver a project, you feel guilty about declining a project so that you don't have to put in extra hours. It's, you know, it pops up every every which way. And then if you're me, you feel
Kathleen Shannon 45:21
guilty for feeling guilty. And you're like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Intellectually. I know that this is mom guilt. Why am I suffering from it? Hey, because of
Arianna Taboada 45:30
the rabbit hole of guilt. And so I mean, stepping back is the kind of tool of choice. But to get even more specific, something that I that I use, and that I work with my clients on is like, really, if you were talking to a friend right now, if you put yourself in the place of someone who's not you, if you remove yourself from the situation a little, like, what would you say to that friend? And can you talk to yourself and treat yourself with that same level of compassion and patience, and understanding that there is a learning curve and that at the end of the day, you're going, you're doing just fine. You're doing it and, and you're rocking it right? I remember, actually, I that was my lesson, like from birth that has served me to motherhood. And as you know, in my journey, and motherhood thus far is that every time I was like, What am I doing what's going on? While I was in labor, my midwife was like, you're rocking it, you're rocking it. And she that was like, a mantra. And I was like, Okay, I guess this is what rocking it is like, so that's, that is the lesson learned is even if it doesn't feel like it, you're rocking it because you're doing it.
Emily Thompson 46:48
I love that that's such a like a life lesson. Rocking. It does not feel like rocking it just is doing it. Got it.
Kathleen Shannon 46:55
I love looking for little clues that I'm on the right track. And for me, this is synchronicity. So looking for clues of synchronicity, like little winks from the universe that I'm doing okay. And so the most recent example of this was, Fox finally slept through the night at three years old. One night, hi fi and I rewarded him the next morning with a doughnut. So we're sitting in the doughnut shop, he's eating a doughnut that's in the shape of a green star, or it's a star with green icing and sprinkles on it. And I was feeling so bad. I was starting to feel guilty about feeding him sugar. One because he had a little bit of a cold, too, because I would like for him to be eating more protein, you know, just stuff like that. So I'm sitting there watching him eat his doughnut instagramming about it. And all of a sudden, this four non blondes song comes on and it's like the one that's like when I wake up in the morning and I step outside. Okay, I sing that song every morning his first year because we would be up six to eight times a night. And I would just feel insane in the morning. And so that song really resonated with me. And that song started playing at the donut shop while he was eating his donut and I was like alright universe you are good with this donut. So am I we're on the right track
Unknown Speaker 48:17
Kathleen Shannon 48:18
It's handled. Um, okay. Another question is like, what about online support systems? Like how do you feel about these mommy groups and Facebook because I was really all about it until I started really feeling in my personal life. I never feel mommy wars or mom judgment everyone is to feed your baby, no matter how you have to feed it. Everyone is you know, do what you got to do to get sleep whether that's cry it out or putting your baby in your bed or just not getting any sleep. Like you just do what you got to do right? But then whenever I started joining these mommy groups I started feeling really judged even though nobody's judging me so how do you feel about mom groups and kind of like creating online support systems?
Arianna Taboada 49:04
I think mom groups have a time in place at at for everyone at some point in the journey. It might not be right away it might be you know a certain struggle or challenge that triggers you to join a very specific type of support and I would say that you know, there's lots of places besides Facebook to find that So Facebook is kind of an easy access point. Yes, you know, if you if you are able to find something easily and it works for you do it if it's not working for you if you're if you really know that every time you go there you're like in for for more of a hassle pen and then help then figure out like I I swore I wouldn't need any in person, mom friends, I was like, I don't really think I have much in common with these other moms around and then I ended up Joining one, like three months after my baby was born. And it was great because it was what I needed at that time.
Kathleen Shannon 50:07
I love that, I think coming back to your eco map, like, if you're looking at your eco map, you're not looking at Facebook as a second ring, which I think a lot of us end up doing. And that's where we get into trouble. like Facebook for me, the mom group, whenever I was sketching out my ego map, as you're talking about it, it's one of my very last rings. So maybe even in the middle of the night, that's like something I'm going to if fox is having, like a stuffy nose, and I'm freaking out about it. I might go to Facebook, then because someone might be able to respond to me then. But otherwise, I'm going to go to my mom, I'm going to go to my husband, I mean to go to his nanny first or his doctor, like not Facebook.
Arianna Taboada 50:50
And that's one of the beauties.
Emily Thompson 50:53
Yeah, I feel like I've had the conversation about mom groups several times over the past couple of months. And my answer has always been like know what support it is that you want. Because a lot of times parents or husbands or whoever be like, Oh, you just need a mom group is like the sort of cure all solution for you're sitting at home with a baby alone all day. But it really may not be the support that you need. Or it may be just the support that you need, I don't think you should take the the request to like join a mom group as the solution for whatever problem someone is seeing. But know what it is that you are wanting to solve what sort of support you need before diving into those things. Because in my experience, too, they can be a little more like the kind of group where you're just bitching about the bad shit to like, have a place to vent and not actually being productive in the ways that you need.
Arianna Taboada 51:46
Right? Or, or having that place to vent and not having expectations about your help coming from that space. To help you need.
Emily Thompson 51:55
Definitely Right, right. And maybe you need a place to vent. In which case find one of those mom groups, but it may not. It may not just be the default solution for whatever problem you're trying to solve.
Arianna Taboada 52:09
I'm also an advocate and this is my like social worker hat. Yes, I'm going to put on my my social worker hat and advocate advocate mentality for a little bit and talk about that sometimes the sometimes the level of help you need is at a professional level of help and you're not going to find it no matter how many in person mom groups you go to, or how many like infant swim class or infant massage class or, or how many Facebook groups you find. So no to that that is available. You know, if you don't have any of those professional supports on your ego map on your radar, then figure out what are some in your area that you can rely on? Should
Kathleen Shannon 52:50
you need it. This is so important. I ended up having postpartum depression that went undiagnosed because I looked fine. I was getting up. I was putting on makeup. I was rocking out to businesses, I was doing all the things. But I felt so isolated and lonely and sad. But not all the time. Like I could still have a good time and laugh. And so the fact is, I didn't think I looked like a depressed person. So I didn't even recognize that I needed to help again with asking for help. So I remember I went in to see my midwife about getting sterilized because I want to make sure I never put myself through this situation ever again. And she was like, Okay, I can totally do that for you. But first, let's look at your mental health. Maybe you need a little Zoloft. Maybe you need to talk to someone, both of which I did and no shame around those things. And I just wanted to share that because you might not look depressed, or you might not look like what you think a depressed person looks like if you've never experienced depression. And I think the thing that really blew my mind at the time was that it's a spectrum. Like I thought that you were either depressed or you weren't, I didn't know that there was a spectrum of sadness or isolated isolation or loneliness or feeling disconnected. So I just wish that there were better systems put in place in women's health and postpartum care to recognize these things. I feel like after six weeks, they're really just looking at your vagina to make sure that you're okay. And then they send you along your way. Like they're not looking at anything else. And that I think that's like so upsetting. So what would you recommend to someone like, do you think that they should get in touch with their doctor first or their ob gyn? For me? That was easiest place to start? What about what do you think Arianna?
Arianna Taboada 54:42
If you're regularly in contact with a primary care provider, yes, by all means, there's a great resource that all make sure we link up in the in the show notes. But it's basically a checklist that you can administer yourself and hand off when you're at an appointment. It can be a primary care appointment for yourself or it can be A well child visit. So you can literally, you know, ask someone for help without having to say the words. And, and then there's the route of going directly, and seeking out mental mental health care through a therapist, social worker, you know, depending on what state you're in depends on who can provide those services. And the best resource that I like to give out for that is postpartum support internationals. warmline. So not a hotline, a warmline. It's a place to call when you're not in a moment of crisis, when you think you might need some help but aren't sure where to go. And they're, they're trained volunteers can help you figure out where there's a mental health provider near you that can help specifically who's trained in maternal mental health issues.
Kathleen Shannon 55:48
Yeah, I'd say even if you think you have zero depression, go ahead and go to these websites and check out these resources. And look at this, because you might not even be able to recognize it in yourself, especially if you're in the thick of it. All right, Arianna, what makes you feel most boss?
Arianna Taboada 56:08
What makes me feel most boss is being fed? Thanks, I feel that I have not cooked
Kathleen Shannon 56:17
I'm seeing a theme here.
Arianna Taboada 56:19
Yeah, I love that. It's really figuring I mean, the theme of what makes me feel badass is learning how to be taken care of and accepting being taken care of. Because I and we and everyone out there do so much taking care of others and, and running the show. So knowing how to how to let yourself receive what you provide for others is a big part of the boss equation for me.
Kathleen Shannon 56:47
All right. And finally, we'll be sure to include a lot of this in the show notes. But where can our listeners find more and learn more about you?
Arianna Taboada 56:55
Sure thing my home on the interwebs is just my name calm, which is not easy to spell spell it out. It's Ariana Tabata, A r i a n n a t TABO, a da.com. And you can actually download the the Eco map the workbook I was talking about. It's right there. If you if you are expecting or you think you're going to be expecting, I highly recommend downloading that and playing around with it to see what the future might look like for you.
Kathleen Shannon 57:31
Thank you so much for joining us. It has been such a pleasure talking to you. And I know that so many of our bosses who are thinking about starting families or are newly pregnant or even thinking about expanding their families. I know if I ever have another baby, which I'm committed to one and done but I just saw that Beyonce is pregnant with twins. So maybe I'm gonna have to like go away
from the universe. Um, but no, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a delight being able to talk to you.
Emily Thompson 58:06
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Kathleen Shannon 59:13
Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Articles show notes and downloads at WWW dot being boss club.
Emily Thompson 59:22
If you're a creative entrepreneur, Freelancer or small business owner who is ready to take your goals to the next level, check out the beam boss clubhouse a two day online retreat followed by a year of community support monthly masterclasses book club secret episodes and optional in person retreats. Find more at www dot being boss club slash clubhouse.
Kathleen Shannon 59:46
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Emily Thompson 1:00:04
do the work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.