Episode 15

Find Your Rat People with Paul Jarvis

April 13, 2015

In today’s episode of Being Boss, Emily and Kathleen welcome Paul Jarvis, a web designer who has worked with big deals like Marie Forleo, The Highline in New York, and Mercedes-Benz. He’s a best selling author and his books include Be Awesome at Online Business, The Good Creative, and he’s even written a vegan cookbook. You may know Paul from his newsletter called The Sunday Dispatch or his podcast called Invisible Office Hours.

Learn More about the Topics Discussed in this Episode
This Episode Brought to You By:
"It's important to listen to your audience and kind of take their pulse as often as possible."
- Paul Jarvis

Discussed in this Episode

  • Work systems (daily/weekly) and how you separate income streams
  • When to know to say "yes" and when to say "no" when taking on new projects
  • Learning how to place focus on your audience before anyone else
  • How to deal with your haters
  • Being uncomfortable about talking about money and business as a creative entrepreneur
  • Learning how to step away from something that isn't working, even if you've already invested time and effort into it
  • Successfully launching a new course and learning how to pitch it to the right audience
  • Growing your [email] list with followers who are interested in the products you continue to release
  • Getting to know your subscribers/followers in order to continue to produce valuable content and products


More from Paul Jarvis

More from Kathleen

Braid Creative

More from Emily

Almanac Supply Co.


Kathleen Shannon 0:04
Get your business together, get yourself into what you do, and see it through.

Emily Thompson 0:10
Because being boss is hard plumbing work, and life is messy. Making your dream job of your own isn't easy.

Kathleen Shannon 0:18
But getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable.

Emily Thompson 0:24
If you do the work, being boss, a podcast for creative entrepreneurs from Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon. Welcome to Episode 15. With our guest, Paul Jarvis. This episode is brought to you by fresh books, cloud accounting.

Unknown Speaker 0:41
Hey, hey. Hey, Paul, thanks

Unknown Speaker 0:44
for joining us. So we have a couple of announcements, then I'm going to introduce you, Emily, can you?

Emily Thompson 0:50
Yes, I certainly will. So first of all, YouTube, we have a YouTube channel. And we're gonna have that in the show notes at love being boss calm, we are having some technical difficulties. So we did not get the Hey sweet pea episode up on YouTube. But we're figuring it out. And all willing, this one will be. So if you enjoy the YouTube videos, we'll keep trying to work it out so that you can see as an action very, very soon. Also, we have our newsletter, be sure to sign up for the newsletter list at loving boss calm so you can get our secret episode on cultivating confidence, which will be available only to our newsletter list. We also send out weekly updates whenever new podcasts are being released. And we're editing up that new one now and we'll be sharing the secret episodes soon. So love being boss calm get on it.

Unknown Speaker 1:45
So you guys today we are so excited to be chatting with Paul Jarvis. If you don't already know Paul, you are in for a treat. And if you do know Paul, then you already know that you know that you're in for a treat. Right. Paul Jarvis is a web designer who has worked with big deals like Marie Forleo, the Highline in New York Mercedes Benz, and he's been a best selling author. And his books include be awesome at online business, which I just read while I was on a business trip. The good creative and he's even written a vegan cookbook. I best know Paul from his newsletter called the Sunday dispatch, which I've been subscribing to for maybe a year or two, and I love it. And Paul also has a podcast called invisible office hours that he co hosts with shit, Paul, what's your co host name?

Paul Jarvis 2:38
Jason sees his name changes all the time because he sells his last name. But now it is Jason zouk. Yes. Okay. So

Unknown Speaker 2:46
it's not no longer surfer app.

Unknown Speaker 2:48
No, that that's, that's done with now.

Kathleen Shannon 2:53
Okay, so anyway, I'm a big fan of your podcast. And I've been listening to it. And it's so funny because I'm having you on this show. I kind of just want to talk about like, hey, let's talk about your episode on death. Can we? Can we chat about that? You know, and that always happens to I think me and Emily and Jill life. Our friends are like, hey, that thing you said on your podcast, let's talk about it. I never even remember what I said.

Emily Thompson 3:16
Yeah, no, I know. I know. I don't know. I listened to a read listen to them sometimes. Like, like, because someone mentioned something I'm like, Did I say that? Like, I don't remember ever saying these things

Unknown Speaker 3:27
I'm gonna say was the books that I write. People are like, oh, remember, in this book, you wrote this chapter on this? And like, yeah, I'm sure I did. Write about that.

Emily Thompson 3:39
Perfect. I'm glad that's not just me.

Unknown Speaker 3:42
Alright, so Paul, let's get into this. Like, I want to hear your story of how you started down this path. And being your own boss and where you are today, just give us like the rundown.

Unknown Speaker 3:54
So this I have been my own boss for a very long time. So in the like mid 90s, I was the creative director at an agency for a short time, and they poached me right out of school. So I was working there. I didn't like working there. They didn't like the way that they were dealing with the clients. I'm like, if I was running this show, I would treat my clients so much better than these people. And my boss was also a cokehead, which doesn't really count. It's really hard to work with those kind of people. So but so I quit. And I was like, I'd had enough and I was like, okay, there's got to be a better agency to work at, it's got to be somewhere that's like treating their clients nicely doing good things. And then I can kind of like, line up my values with. So go ahead, and I was gonna go to the library the next day to figure out how to write a resume because I hadn't written a resume at this point, because they had poached me at a university. Because the internet really wasn't this is like 96 or 97 or something like this was like I couldn't Google resumes. Alright, maybe I could have I don't know, but I was gonna go to the library. But then I kept getting calls from the client saying like, hey, Paul, where are you going to go work next? Because we just want to bring our business with you because we Knew You Were doing all the work because the people around the agency were idiots. And after like the third or fourth cause, like, maybe I should just work for myself, so I didn't actually plan and that's what I did. So the next day, I figured out how to get like a business license and get like a sole proprietorship that's what's called in Canada, maybe the same in the States. I don't have any idea. Yeah, but yeah, so I started that way. And then I started working with like, four or five clients, like the third day, pretty much. So I didn't really want to work for myself, I was gonna go find another job, but then it kind of worked out that way. And that was like 1718 years ago. So it's kind of it kind of stuck.

Unknown Speaker 5:39
Yeah, nice. Yes,

Emily Thompson 5:41
that's fantastic. Good for you. Way to be better than everyone else.

Unknown Speaker 5:49
was good. When are you kind of fall into it? So Okay, so here's one of my biggest questions. And this is a selfish question like, this is for me, this is not for our listeners. So like, you're super prolific, you're writing books, you're creating digital products, you are writing a really awesome newsletter every Sunday, do you do any additional writing other than the newsletter?

Unknown Speaker 6:11
Yeah, I write for a bunch of publications, although I'm scaling that back and moving more into the syndication model instead of guest writing, because I find now that where I'm at with building my audience, and that it's just better for me to share with the people that are on my list are already paying attention than to write for other magazines and publications. So I'm scanning right now probably have to do about four or five articles this month, and then maybe one or two next month, and then that should hopefully be it. But yeah, so I typically for the last year or so I was doing four articles for a month for my list, and then four or five articles or more for other people. And then a couple other things, as well as writing books and writing courses and all of that. So right and

Unknown Speaker 6:56
you've got the podcast, okay, but then also you do client work? Yes. I'm kind of curious, like, this might be too nosy too fast. But like, whenever it comes to the money that you're making, like, what is your bread and butter? Also? Like? What is your daily and weekly routine? Like? Or what kind of work systems do you have in place that you are able to be so prolific?

Unknown Speaker 7:19
Remember all of the parts of those questions, I'll answer the first. I will remember, oh, I started with the money thing I started when I started writing books, I think three years ago, I was like, Okay, if I'm going to do this, I want to kind of separate it. So I keep every single one of my income streams completely separate. So design is separate from books and separate from courses and separate from consulting and separate from the one off products that I do. And in doing that, I can see, okay, oh, books are making a lot more money. So I can scale back the client work or my products aren't selling as well as they were the last month. So I'll take on another couple jobs, so I can kind of balance it out. Right now, my course the creative class makes the bulk of my income, which I was surprised, like, I know, the course is good. I know it's useful, but I wasn't expecting it to sell as well as it has. So it's Yeah, that's made up the bulk of that's probably at about 60% of my income. Whereas all my other products, books don't make that much money, especially when I have them on Amazon for like seven bucks or something or 10 or 15 on my site. So you get extras and audio in that. So but the course is worth a lot more money. So it that seems to be bringing in quite a bit of money, which I was surprised by. But I'm awesome. My sister

Unknown Speaker 8:38
is my business partner. And she ran the books on like all of our income streams, because they're all figured out. And she was like, so our ecourse makes about 10% of our income, which is like, good, and it's still a good chunk of money, but because I feel like I spend so much time promoting and marketing and I think that's like a myth that people think that they usually call it some passive income because you create it once but nothing about it is passive. So I kind of want to ask you about that, like the amount of time to also like promoting those things. But going back to the original question,

Emily Thompson 9:15
when gets really into it, like we need

Unknown Speaker 9:17
something like math, logic and pie charts. Like

Unknown Speaker 9:21
I was listening to Alec Baldwin podcast, Have you listened to it? I think it's called. This is the thing. We'll include it in our show notes and I will have the right name in the show notes. But he's such an amazing interviewer. He has such a awesome voice. I mean, it's Alec Baldwin. Anyway, it makes me feel like a spouse with a terrible voice.

Emily Thompson 9:41
Yeah, I'm actually not going to let you drink coffee again before internet.

Unknown Speaker 9:47
Anyway, whatever. Okay, so what is your daily and weekly routine like in that you can be so prolific.

Unknown Speaker 9:55
So I don't really have one. I kind of know what needs to happen. on a weekly basis, and then I kind of break it up and I like to, I find I get more done. If I chunk things together, like if I have to write four articles, I can get four articles done faster. If I write them all at the same time, then write one. And then like two days later write another I feel like same with design. If I'm, if I like to start projects all around the same time, because they've been designed for one person, then my mind is kind of going like design, I have a really hard time shifting gears between all the different things I do. So the more that I can chunk things together. And this doesn't work for everybody. This is just kind of what works for me, and I guess people weird like me, but it just seems to uh, once I can get into the flow of doing one thing, I can keep doing that thing. So I kind of break it up into like, I've writing days or today is like a talking on Skype day for me, because I find like, if I'm doing calls, and I've scheduled meetings and stuff, it's hard for me to work like, the hour before or the hour after I kind of know that something's happening. So it's hard to get into it. So I kind of break it up like that. So today, I'm on the phone all day, yesterday was writing all the day, all day, the day before I was probably doing code or something like that. So I like to chunk it up and kind of figured out like, Okay, this is what I need to do for the week. This dam doing this, this day, I'm doing this or even half days kind of thing.

Emily Thompson 11:20
I like that I'm kind of the same way I found that like evolution of workday for me, like I used to, like, want to go in and do like all the little pieces of what I do, like all day long in the morning is email and then I have meetings and I tried to design or code. It sucks, or like, or at least the evolution of like my daily to do used to work for me, but it is not work for me anymore. I think that chunking it up like that half days are what I'm currently doing. It seems to work a little better than the usual like daily routine. So high five, I'm right there with you.

Unknown Speaker 11:53
And do you have any employees?

Unknown Speaker 11:56
No, I don't. I work with a couple awesome freelancers. Like I have my editor Sherry Hanson who is smarter than I am. And the reason why all my books and products sound as good as they do. I have my copy editor Ashley bright, who copy edits all of my dispatches and articles, a couple illustrators that I work with a couple programmers that I work with when they need my own products for my clients. I do all the coding. But for my own stuff, I get into this weird, like automation shit with a lot of the stuff that I do. So I need to like, do all these weird API calls. So I hire somebody else for that. But yeah, it's just a couple freelance. And then I have like an accountant bookkeeper as well. But I only really deal with him once a year when I give him my digital shoe box. and apologize for being awful.

Kathleen Shannon 12:44
I think everyone's dealing with that right now.

Emily Thompson 12:46
Yeah. And we're all apologizing. I think everyone

Unknown Speaker 12:50
want that's the thing. Like, I know what I'm good at. I'm not I'm good at making money. I'm not good at organizing that money afterwards for the government, because they just don't care. So if I could pay somebody else to do that. That's the best thing ever.

Emily Thompson 13:06
All right. Yeah. Go, Kathleen.

Unknown Speaker 13:09
Oh, I got another question. I got another question. Okay, because you were so busy and making so much stuff. And a lot of the creatives that Emily and I work with are terrified that they're going to like set their foot down the wrong path and get so far down this scary dark forest, the path with like, little like Wolverines coming out and attacking them. Like, how I guess the question is like, how do you decide what to say yes to and when you say no to, before you get down that path?

Unknown Speaker 13:42
In terms of other people's requests, I say no to everything, at first at least. So even if it's like if somebody wants to hire me for web design, I say no. If somebody wants to do an interview, I say no, I didn't say no to you, because your stuff. But typically, like, I think people get pulled in too many directions. And people get overwhelmed because they have so much shit on their plates. It's because people say yes to everything, like I'm okay to say no to pretty much everything. And then for the client work that I do. If somebody I typically recommend doing something a different way if it makes sense for them. Or I say like I can work with them later. So it's a no as but it's deferred. And then once we get talking, then we figure out a way to work together but I find that it's just eat like I know what I need to do. And I have so much stuff on the go that is really hard for me to take on more things like I turned down everybody that wants a guest article from me I just say no to it doesn't matter who it is or what the publication is I just I don't have time for that. So I just say no, for my own stuff. I do kind of like forgetting down I write about I write about like the path analogy. So I'm glad you brought it up in those terms because I see that I can wrap My brain around that, I find that like, I still don't really know what I'm doing. I like I do what I do. And I've done this for a really long time. But I still worry about like, doing things the right way. So I find that I like to do small, like, I like to take a step, and evaluate and then iterate and then take another steps, evaluate, iterate, test the idea. So I'm not like, all the way down some path. And there's like all these little Wolverines all over the place, which I think would probably be pretty cute. They may be green and vicious animals, when I think it will reason like, oh, they'd be kind of like my rats, but like figure

Unknown Speaker 15:35
that they're like the Game of Thrones, like dogs. Do you watch Game of Thrones coach, I

Unknown Speaker 15:40
don't watch TV, cultural references. They're just like, Alright, nevermind.

Unknown Speaker 15:46
So that's how you get shit done is that you're not watching TV, basically.

Unknown Speaker 15:49
Yeah. I say yeah, I say no, to all that kind of stuff as well. Like, I don't. Yeah, I there's a lot of hours in the day, it's just a matter of prioritizing how you spend those hours.

Emily Thompson 16:02
Yeah, I want to talk about really quickly, like the mindset that you have around it being so okay with saying no to people, because something that that we, we find a lot with like, especially with the being boss community and the questions that we get. And because this is something that Kathleen and I need to work on, is being able to say no to people both like I think in our personal businesses, but also in like, in the community that we're building around being boss, because we love it. But being boss is our side, hustle, and just all that jazz. So let's talk about sort of the mindset that you have around being so okay, with telling people? No, because that freaks a lot of people out.

Unknown Speaker 16:41
Yeah, there's like the fear of missing out and all of that, like, do you just not have that fear? What's different in your head?

Unknown Speaker 16:49
A lot.

Emily Thompson 16:53
That was an open question specifically around saying no. So I guess like,

Unknown Speaker 16:59
I still have those fears, like I still fear like, Okay, well, if I said no to that publication, maybe that could have done like 100 sales for my course, or could have got like another 600 people on my mailing list or something like that. But then that doesn't like those aren't really my goals, like my goals are to be valuable to the community that I serve. So and I already talked to those people, they're already clients of mine, they're already on my mailing list, they've already bought the products that I have. And yes, I want to grow that. But that's always a secondary goal. To me, it's serving the audience that I have, that's the primary goal. So I don't need all of these other things like they're kind of good to have and their bonuses. But I say no to them, because they don't really like, it doesn't serve me as much as it may serve them. And I find that a lot of times, we think everything is going to be so much more of a big deal than it actually is. Like, I get so many people that pitch me to be on their podcast, like, Oh, I have 100,000 listeners and stuff. And then I'll do the podcast. And then I'll sell like, zero, anything and like no real sign up for my mailing list, because I track all that through like UTM, source tags and stuff like that. So I find or even like writing for big publications like Oh, so and so wants to write and they have like all millions of readers, and you look at their Twitter following that, like 1.4 million readers, then I write an article for them, then they tweet it. And then it gets like 1000 reads or something like that, which is good. But it's not like I can get more On My Own Website. So I think a lot of times all of these opportunities, because they're in the future, it's like, we think that they're going to be the best thing or like the biggest thing. And we think it's going to be like our big break or something like that. And I don't think that's even a thing. Like I think a big break is just a series of like tiny little breaks over like a long, long bit of time. So I think it's just a matter of valuing your shit first and then taking care of everybody else. And that's, I think, why I'm okay with it. I also kind of like that people think I'm kind of a nice guy, but also kind of an asshole. Kind of like, kind of like that. So people expect that there's probably going to be a no. So I don't know, it's branding.

Unknown Speaker 19:10
You know, it's so funny because you say that for a while. Like, I feel like you were writing a lot about haters. And I was like, who hates you? And maybe it's just because I'm such a fan that I can't imagine it and I can

Unknown Speaker 19:22
hear my inbox with you from yesterday. Holy shit.

Unknown Speaker 19:26
Wait, what did you write? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 19:27
What did you write even writing?

Unknown Speaker 19:31
Just your hater day

Unknown Speaker 19:34
schedule. They're all on. They're all on the hate Paul mailing list and I think they got like, a campaign that did that converted really well.

Unknown Speaker 19:45
Are they customers that like are emailing you they're mad about something or like it's just like people?

Unknown Speaker 19:50
Yeah, it's people that would never support it's not they're not my rap people. They're not people that would ever buy anything of mine anyways, because if somebody buys something and doesn't like it, they're just getting a refund. I don't care. Like that's how it

Emily Thompson 25:00
Jack's with a with a clinical herbalist. And we learned lots of fun stuff as people are smart, a dream client.

Unknown Speaker 25:10
And you know, and it's funny because on my original agenda, like I just I couldn't narrow it down all the things that I wanted to talk to you about and ask you about. And it's funny because sometimes Emily and I are on this podcast and like, what two dudes be talking about this with two dudes be concerned about this? So I just listened to invisible office hours? Yeah, like,

Emily Thompson 25:29
really? Yes, they

Unknown Speaker 25:30
are talking about I think that and so then I couldn't decide is this a feminist issue? Is this like a man woman issue? Or is it a creative entrepreneur, like creative industry issue that people are afraid to talk about money? So that's like, when specifically is people being afraid to talk about money? And sometimes I don't know if it's just women? Or if it's creatives in general? Do you have any? I guess, just like, overall insights on that?

Unknown Speaker 25:53
Yeah, I think the whole creative thing, it's like, we all get into art and creativity, because it's kind of like, I don't want to like wear a suit, and B, or like one of those like business skirts. And like, even though I look good, and one night, we kind of shy away from the business stuff. And then we then a lot of artists start to equate business stuff with, like, evil or bad or like, a lot of artists that I know are like, marketing, I don't want to do marketing. And so it's like, Okay, well, good, good luck. So I think there's a real disconnect and divide with like talking about that more concrete stuff with business, because I think that's part of it. Like, the reason I like being a creative person is because I get to control the business side of things. I like marketing, because I can market stuff the way that I actually want to market it, I don't have to follow some like company rule book or play book or something like that, I can make it work for me. And I think a lot of creatives and artists feel like if they're going to market themselves, or trying to sell themselves or their work, they have to do a certain way. So it's like icky, I want to do that. And you don't have to like a lot of times I do stuff just because it's like, Okay, this is the exact opposite of what people say you're supposed to do. And I just want to see if this will work or not doing something totally opposite. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it falls flat on his face. But sometimes it works. And I think a lot of times, it's just a matter of finding your own path to do what you want to do in a way that you feel comfortable doing it. So I don't know. Yeah, like a lot of bringing it back to the money thing. Like I have no problems talking about that. I like talking about it, cuz I think it's something that needs to be talked about. Because I think there's I the people that like to talk about it are the wrong people that should be talking about it, because they're talking about like, well, you can make like a million dollars sitting on the beach, with your laptop, and all of that. And those are the types of people talking about money. So we all kind of get a bad taste in our mouths. But then when people like us starts to talk about it, I think it's more were more like no bullshit with the way that we approach our business and money and all of that. So I think we need to be talking about it. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker 28:02
I think that we have very similar philosophies when it comes to just doing the work. Like I hear you preaching it in all of your content, that it's not about having that six figure business in two weeks. It's about just putting your head down and doing the work and what you were saying earlier about little steps, leading to the right path is kind of like going back to the pack metaphor. Like you're not to be thinking a lot of steps to like, find yourself in the weird dark forest being attacked by Wolverines. And like you could probably have diverted far before that ever happens if you're Yeah, think small enough steps, right? Yeah, it's

Unknown Speaker 28:39
just like a sunk cost bias thing where we all feel like the more that we invest into something, the more we have to try to make it work, because we've already invested all of this into that. And I think we have to step back from our egos a bit and say like, Okay, if something isn't working, maybe we should try something else. And I don't know, I think that's the only reason why someone like things do okay, is because I'm okay to say like this failed hard. Now let's try something totally opposite and see if that works. And I think a lot of times, it's not things don't always work out the first time. Sometimes they work out like the eight or the 800th time. And you have to kind of get out of that mindset, where it's like, well, I've already put all this time and effort into something, I gotta make it work. It's like, well, it may not.

Unknown Speaker 29:25
So here's a question is that and maybe it's a little bit of both. But will you ever like so whenever I think about a failure, usually it's attached to the launch, right? And so I launch something and maybe it fails. I don't have to redo the content. Maybe I just see a package and launch it in a new way and the contents the hard part, right. So it's not a total failure. Right. And have you experienced that where you just like kind of repackage your content and launch it in a different way.

Unknown Speaker 29:53
I'm experiencing that right now. So I launched a course last year. underwriting I thought it was like this is the best book writing course ever. It's sold like maybe 10. Like maybe 10. people bought it as like, want wall. And I just had another course which is sold like seven or 800 seats in it. And I was like, Okay, what the hell like does this course suck? And then looking at it again, I'm like, No, it doesn't. And then we repackaged it and relaunched it on through a different venue. And now in the last few days, I think it's sold almost 650 seats in it. And this is like seven months later. So and people love it. But nobody was buying it at the beginning. So they didn't know that they could, but they were going to buy it and love it because it just wasn't like, aligned the right way. So I changed nothing in the course, like the course is 100% exactly the same as it was in October, November when I first launched it.

Unknown Speaker 30:52
Do you mind sharing specifics about like the first launch versus the second launch? Like what specifically was different about how you did that

Unknown Speaker 31:00
price was we launched it and we launched it to one of my mailing lists that they sign up for this list because they wanted basically a free version of the course. And then six months later, I built a paid version of the course. So they signed up for free content, not expecting there to be a pitch. And then they forgot about it. And then I launched the paid course. And then of course nobody's gonna buy it. It's like, I'm already not interested in this. And then we relaunched it and we packaged it with a deal website who has a lot more subscribers and the mindset of people being on the deal websites mailing list is there going to be pitch products every week. So they know there's a pitch coming. And if it works for them, they're gonna buy it, if it doesn't work for them, they're just not going to buy it, but they expect to have to spend money on things that they want. whereas previously, it was a list that they thought they were just getting a free course and that was it. And then they forget about it. And then I come back at them six months later, and I know Well, this doesn't work. And somehow I'm like, okay, maybe I can figure out a way to make this work. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 32:06
but this deal website, we're just getting into this because like I'm, I'm about to package and launch something too. And I'm about to do the freebie. And I'm what you're saying is like well, backtrack. undo all of that. Yeah. Emily, Stop the presses.

Emily Thompson 32:23
We'll do we'll do

Unknown Speaker 32:25
the internet. We don't stop. But um, so anyway, about this website. So you're pitching this now to people who are not your rap people, right? Like they're not your audience or someone else's. Some of them are correct.

Unknown Speaker 32:38
Yeah, they're okay. So they're my rap people. They just don't know it yet. Or the people that bought it now are there now my rap people.

Unknown Speaker 32:47
So but I want to ask you about I guess, like I was listening to your launching podcasts, and I was like, what I screen captured it. I texted it to Emily. And I was like, listen to this right now. Because I feel like you're talking about things I've just been going direct to my rap people that I've cultivated and built very slowly are what feels like I'm not the six figure in two weeks person. And I've been just selling to them directly for so long. And then I hear you on this launching podcast talking about syndicated content and and writing stuff and putting it on medium calm and half the stuff. I don't even know what it is like, how do you find those places? And what has your experience been like? They're like, basically, I want you to tell me how to do it.

Unknown Speaker 33:31
So the reason why it didn't work. And I'll backtrack a bit, the reason why the free to the paid didn't work is because there was no expectation of the paid. So my current course of creative class, there is a free email course that you can sign up for. But it even says on the course on the eighth day, I'm going to pitch you my paid course, that converts at probably around five 6%, which is awesome. So for for every like five, six people that sign up somebody, I don't know. So for every Yeah, my math is off for every 50 to 60 people that sign up, somebody buys it, but it's like a $300 course. So that, to me is good. And I know I can drive 5060 people to the mailing list every like half day or day. So it does work, you just have to do it in a way that it's expected. And where it makes sense. You can't just send them a free thing, wait six months, don't email them in those six months, and then pitch them something and come back and they've already forgotten who you are. So that's why that one didn't work. So the syndication and the reaching beyond your network is because I know how to sell like you can only reach you reach a limit selling just to your audience. And even though those are the people that I tried to make happy first. I know I still need to go outside of that sometimes to get people to like grow my rat people even though I don't really care. Like I don't want to grow them to like millions and millions of people. That would just be scary. I don't want to do that.

Emily Thompson 34:55
Think of all the hate mail you'd get then

Unknown Speaker 34:59
I need to Like I need to somehow get those people to put like something in the subject line that I can just filter it to another folder. Just be really helpful if you're going to email me something mean just do it with like hashtag hater in the subject line and then I can just filter that in my Gmail.

Emily Thompson 35:20
I have a folder already like on my Apple Mail, and it's called the grumpy bitches. You need hugs, too.

Unknown Speaker 35:29
But you have to manually put them in. I do. Yeah, I want to automate this.

Emily Thompson 35:37
That's good. Then you can just read it when you're a little too happy

Unknown Speaker 35:41
with it. You need to be taken down a peg right now, son. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:48
I feeling good about yourself today. Read this

Unknown Speaker 35:51

Emily Thompson 35:53
Perfect. Perfect. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 35:54
So medium. Let's keep things on topic, ladies.

Unknown Speaker 36:00
Okay, so where you are? No, I'm

Unknown Speaker 36:01
joking. I don't want to

Unknown Speaker 36:02
know I do I want to go out. Yes. Anyway, I want to go all over the place. But these sites were you already engaging with these sites? Like were you already a member of this deal site? Because you like buying deals like like your will writing? Like, did you find it? Is that the same site that you're not selling? You're

Unknown Speaker 36:22
no my realtor totally up sold me on that the deal for my well, so the backstory people haven't listened to that on my list, which I expect everybody already. But so basically, when I bought the current house that we have, our realtor said like if you guys want to well, the lawyer that we use also has a sale right now on wills. And it's like only valid for like a month. There's like urgency. Like, Lisa, let's take advantage of this. So yeah, we got our we got our well for like, basically Groupon pricing without using Groupon. But the first part of that question, the actual important part of access, yeah, not important. The actual important part of the question was, so I try to connect with people who have similar audiences, and who talk who kind of align with the things that I talked about. They may talk about different things. But the people that they speak to their audience has similar values or similar pains and motivations is mine. So I'm always trying to make connections with these people like hop on quick calls. So I got to know know, the guy who runs the deal website a couple years ago, and he had a he actually emailed me to ask me a question, which I happily oblige, because I knew that his audience and my audience kind of like overlap in some ways. And I feel like people that work for themselves kind of think that they are part of this like silo, or this like Fortress of Solitude, where it's just them. And I find that the more and even though I'm introverted, and even though I'm not really a big fan of people all the time, I feel like it's still a good idea to network and reach out. And like on my mailing list, even like I talk about when people that I know, and like launch things, I'll mention it, I don't do that very often. But I do and people do the same for me. So when I launch something, it's not just me talking about it is maybe Me and 20 other people, and then another 20 people later, and then another 20 people later talking about it. So it can kind of like ripple outwards, because people especially when they're buying products, they're probably not going to buy something the first time they hear about it, unless they're like been on your mailing list for years and like chomping at the bit for something new from you. So it takes like a bunch of mentions, and for them to see it like oh, I see this tweeted by this person on Twitter, and this person is talking about it on their Facebook feed, and somebody just hashtag whatever it was on Instagrams, like, maybe I do need this thing, like everybody's talking about it, I may only be like 20 people talking about it. But if you run in similar circles with these people, then it kind of ripples out. And it kind of builds that social proof because people need to trust something before they buy it. So it builds that trust factor, where it's like, ah, I totally need this now, when they got the email from you on launch day, and they're like, yeah, that seems interesting. And then they forget about it, but then they get reminded about it by other people. And then it's like, it really, really reinforces that. That building trust and that that desire, if it's something that fits with what they need.

Unknown Speaker 39:33
Alright, cool. So like the website that you relaunch this product onto. It wasn't like the equivalent of the people who throw the newspaper in your lawn that's just full of ads. Or it's not like the equivalent of like woot.com or that sort of,

Unknown Speaker 39:49
like, you know, is this more super serious, super targeted, very, very curated, like, yeah, it's hard to get a deal on this site because they focus every thing they have at that, like one deal at a time, one deal every couple weeks, there's sometimes weeks where there aren't deals, it's just free stuff. So they're really building that value to their own list. So then when they do launch a deal, it's something that people a want, because they do a lot of research, which I'm also a big advocate of, but it's also something where it's like, oh, they've been getting value. So they can reciprocate by spending money on whatever it is that that product is. So they're very, they're very smart.

Emily Thompson 40:29
So I love how I love how like basically packaging that up. And this is something that I feel like, like our listeners, like really need to hone in on is this idea of like, constantly growing your outreach and your engagement, because otherwise, you're just gonna like sell out your list and the people that you have attracted, because there's something whoever I'm talking to my clients all the time, it's like, do an email list, like it's one of the most important things that you can do as an online business is actively consistently growing an email list, because you can sell out an email list. And once you sell out your list, you have no one else who's going to buy your stuff until you are okay Emily,

Unknown Speaker 41:10
what you mean by sell out your list? Because I'm thinking like, sell out. But like you're saying, like you've tapped that resource?

Emily Thompson 41:17
Yes, exactly. So everyone who's going to buy on your list at any given moment has bought. And so if you continue launching new things, or releasing new products or, or just trying to book more clients, then if you're not consistently growing that sort of like bucket of rap people, for yourself, and then you're done.

Unknown Speaker 41:38
Unless you go and hit up some other people's rap people and your future rap people. So I love that too. And I feel like that's kind of what you know, even Emily and I have done by partnering up and we're just gathering forces and combining forces all over the place. Okay, so speaking of email lists, we don't have a whole lot more time, I don't want to take up too much of your skype day. But like you wrote a lot of I mean, you write you have an amazing list. I can't even like Guess how big it is. But and I think that we all know the typical tricks and tips for growing your list, which is like the be consistent, be valuable. offer something for free. And you even cover these things in your book on how to be awesome online. But I'm wondering if you have any sort of, like rocket fuel for growing your list in a meaningful way? Or like what maybe you've even learned since writing that book about growing your list?

Unknown Speaker 42:34
Yeah, so I think the biggest thing and super super technical, but it's listening. And what I mean by that is, it's really easy to just kind of like get in a groove of like, Okay, this is the type of articles that I'm writing. This is kind of a free, I don't even have a freebie for my last. It's like the freebie or the incentive is getting my articles. Yeah. Because I've tried freebies. And I see when I look at the value of that customer monetarily, it's very low if they sign up for a freebie, but also if I look at the engagement of the signups for that it's super low as well. So people that sign up for a freebie tend to get the freebie and then not really open stuff for subscribe an email or two later. So it's like, I don't even care. It's just like, if you want my articles sign up for the list. If you don't, then don't sign up for the list. But for coming back to the listening thing, what I've done almost every year, well until now I'm doing something different next week. But up until now I've done kind of once a year is kind of do calls with people on my mailing list, and not all of them. But like, the last time I think I talked to 36 people on my list on Skype for like 15 1015 minutes. And I just offered it was just like, I'll do like 15 minutes of consulting for you for free. I usually charge like 400 bucks for consulting but like I'm gonna do these short calls for free. I just want to get to know people on my list. That is so helpful. There's so much information like when I wrote a book from doing that, which was my best selling book buy like as like an extra zero on the end of it. And two, it's there's so much good information like people always think like, Oh my god, what am I going to write for my mailing list? And it's like, if you talk to the people on your mailing list, you're going to have more story ideas than you can possibly think of. But also you're going to be writing about things that people actually give a shit about instead of things that you think people give a shit about. Which is there's a huge difference there even though it's only like a couple words difference. I think actually like getting to know your mailing list subscribers and I know like Chris guillebeau up to his 10,000th person signing up for his mailing list would email them all individually. That's good Martin. That's good marketing one but that's also good to get to know them for a lot of people's mailing list and mine included. They say like look, this is a two way street. This is you're not like signing up for the Macy's newsletter when you Sign up for Sunday dispatch. I say like, introduce yourself to me and I get people who tell me who they are and what they're working on. And that's like, I save all those now. And that's like, I'm, that's like, probably above my like hater folder. So like, if it's like, if anytime I'm like, I don't even know what to write about, it's like, I can start reading those emails, I'll probably read one or two, and then I'll have at least an idea. And that's, and then if I start to read all of them, I can start to look for trends. It's just really like simple data analysis, where if you look at the data across, like 100 emails, if you start to see like, maybe five or six people are doing one thing, or five or six people are struggling with something or 20 people are interested in something that's huge. That's like a lot of stuff. You don't need to hire like a market research company to do this for you. You can just like ask people, what do you do? What are you working on kind of thing. And that does a whole lot. I think next week, I'm sending out an actual reader survey, which has more jokes than actual. But, like, it's important to listen to your audience and kind of get kind of take a pulse of them as often as possible without like, I guess annoying them with it. But like, kind of getting to know what they're working on and what they're doing and what they're what they're interested in. More importantly.

Unknown Speaker 46:17
Yeah. Kudos to that, as our Facebook group has been amazing for that with even crafting our content for our podcasts and

Emily Thompson 46:25
yeah, usually crowdsource content,

Unknown Speaker 46:27
I think, is I think, a good point too, is that even whenever you make it big, you're still just a person. And even Paul, you and I like interacting. I think I just emailed you back one day, and I was like, Hey, I like what you're putting out, I kept it like, really short and brief, because I know that you probably get a ton of emails that are really long. But you know, keeping it short and brief and just saying, Hey, I like what you're putting out there. And I've met so many really amazing people just saying that. So

Unknown Speaker 46:54
same. I think

Unknown Speaker 46:56
a reminder just to our listeners is that is we're still all just people and simple interactions can go a really long way.

Unknown Speaker 47:05
Yeah. And they make a difference. Like sometimes my day is made by like a two line email from somebody. I listen to this one episode. And they did this for me. He's just like, awesome. That's so awesome. You go in the nice folder.

Emily Thompson 47:18
Hopefully that one's much more full.

Unknown Speaker 47:22
feeling bad about myself. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 47:23
exactly. I didn't read too many than after read a couple from the back.

Emily Thompson 47:28
Just to level it all.

Unknown Speaker 47:31
Well, Paul, tell us what you're working on right now. And maybe even just like what's been on your mind that you want to explore more or write more about, like, what's next. So I don't actually have

Unknown Speaker 47:43
like, as far as like products or things I'm working on. I'm not working on anything. Right now. I'm doing a lot of client work. And I'm doing a lot of stuff for the course that I have. Because I feel like that course is doing really well. There's a lot of people interested in it and engaged in it now that they pay for it. It's like I just want to keep making this the most valuable thing there is. So I'm kind of just like building up the creative class and doing writing and working on client stuff. I kind of like to take the summer off too. So I don't really want to work that much this summer. Again, as I like to do, what

Unknown Speaker 48:15
are you going to do whenever you're not working this summer?

Unknown Speaker 48:18
Like what are your two garden stuff?

Unknown Speaker 48:21
like vegetables or Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 48:23
yeah, growing, growing stuff, hiking, I don't know. I just like reading as well. Just normal, pretty normal stuff. Maybe I'll start watching that. Whatever show it was

Unknown Speaker 48:36
pretty intense. You have your non violent person, I wouldn't watch it because it's incredibly.

Unknown Speaker 48:42
So I'll put Ahimsa aside and then just kind of like, tuck into that.

Unknown Speaker 48:48
I'll think of a good show for you to watch and be like, Okay, this is the show.

Unknown Speaker 48:52
Is it like Battlestar Galactica, where you watch one episode, and then you're like, Oh, my God, I had to keep watching. And then eight days later, portlandia did a skit.

Unknown Speaker 49:00
Yes. portlandia did do a skit on it is amazing. I

Unknown Speaker 49:07
grow up to

Unknown Speaker 49:10
that, like when I watched that skit, I was like, This is Wait, I can't find this funny because it's so close to what actually happened to true, it's too true.

Unknown Speaker 49:20
Um, anyway, I'll think of a good show. And I'll send you an email and tell you that and that's a lot of pressure to show. I love this for all of our listeners. If you're an Amazon Prime member, and this is not sponsored, maybe we can get amazon prime to sponsor this podcast, but the show transparent. I dinged on that it's the dad from Arrested Development. And it's so okay. Oh my gosh, you guys.

Emily Thompson 49:49
So anyway, if you have too much time on your no listen.

Unknown Speaker 49:54
It's about him and transitioning from a man to a woman later in life. So you He's in his probably 60s. And then it's really about his three kids. And anyway, I really liked the writing on it. It's good show.

Emily Thompson 50:10
The best Kathleen's like television recommendation for the week.

Unknown Speaker 50:16
Oh, man, Paul, thanks so much for joining us. It's been really fun chatting with you.

Unknown Speaker 50:22
That's a lot of fun. Yeah, we'll

Unknown Speaker 50:23
include all the ways that our listeners can find you and and taking the creative class and all that will include all of that in our show notes at love being boss calm.

Emily Thompson 50:32
Yeah. Is the creative quest still open for registration? Or is it like it

Unknown Speaker 50:36
doesn't close? Oh, no, there's no close date. It's just always there.

Emily Thompson 50:39
Good. Yes, we'll definitely make sure that we share that so everyone can check it out. I was looking at it this morning, and I was wanting to sign up. And you'll

Unknown Speaker 50:46
have to let us know like what track those analytics let us know what your conversion rates are.

Emily Thompson 50:51
Yeah. Do you need to send us a special link? Just let us know.

Unknown Speaker 50:56
Oh, I already know.

Unknown Speaker 50:58
I feel like you have like Internet superpowers like you're able is

Unknown Speaker 51:03

Emily Thompson 51:04
Oh, perfect. No, this has been this has been fantastic. Thank you so much. Now I'm

Unknown Speaker 51:09
cool. Yeah, it's my pleasure.

Emily Thompson 51:12
All right. You may do algebra you do after doing algebra?

Unknown Speaker 51:14
I can do the outro do it. Alright, hang with us for two seconds, Paul. And then we'll officially say goodbye. All right. Thank you for listening to being bossed from Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon. Find Show Notes for this episode at love being boss calm. Listen to past episodes and subscribe to our new episodes on iTunes, SoundCloud and Stitcher. If you like our podcast, please show us some love by reviewing being boss on iTunes and sharing it with a friend. It really does make a difference through the work be boss and we'll see you next week.

Unknown Speaker 51:55
That and all of our Facebook we have a Facebook group. It has over 1000 people in it now. They're like freaking out about Yeah. Like they're like Paul Jarvis is my spirit animal. So

Unknown Speaker 52:06
when someone said that, they just don't. That's my mom. Thanks, Mom. I appreciate that.