Own Your Weird with Jason Zook

Emily Thompson 0:02
I'm Emily Thompson.

Kathleen Shannon 0:04
And I'm Katherine Shannon,

Emily Thompson 0:05
and this has been boss. In this episode of being boss, we're talking about the tangle of work and identity, the things you learn from sticking to your entrepreneurial path and owning your weird with our boss boyfriend Jason. Jason is a serial entrepreneur who has made millions through various weird methods from wearing t shirts and auctioning off his last name to selling his future and building online courses and software platforms. He's also author of a new book called own You're weird. Jason has been a guest here on being boss a couple of times. So if you want to hear those two, check out episodes 38 and 141. As always, you can find all the tools books and links we referenced on the show notes at WWW dot being boss dot club.

Kathleen Shannon 1:01
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Emily Thompson 2:30
I guess is a side tangent here. David and I had a conversation in the car recently while listening to one of the great songs featuring little john little john, I suppose. And we talked funny it would be if we had him on the show. And then we got some sound bites so that we could have him going. What Yeah, occasionally Oh, yeah. Or I've always wanted a soundboard. I think we need to being ball sound boy, yeah, that would be really fun.

Kathleen Shannon 2:55
Well, speaking of soundboard, I just got a slack notification from you, Jason, that you're going on some radio shows, I feel like those are full of the sound.

Jason Zook 3:08
Jason, tell us what you're up to. Like, there's no reason to have air horns there. Why do we have air horns and because radio that's

Emily Thompson 3:16
why right, because that button button had not been pushed in a long time.

Jason Zook 3:19
It very dusty buttons, dusty buttons over the radio station.

Kathleen Shannon 3:24
So radio, you're going on radio to promote your book.

Jason Zook 3:27
I've done this before. You know, it's one of those things you ladies know this to like, as much as you don't want to do some of the things you do want to do as much as you can, right? Like, you don't want to look back and go, I spent all this time writing a book or doing whatever. And then you just don't do one thing that's going to take like one day of your time. Like there are many things I'm not going to do. But a radio tour is super easy. Like it's like three to five minutes, you get to talk to all the DJs around the country.

Kathleen Shannon 3:52
We did zero radio shows to promote our book and I wish that I could say it's because we're too cool for radio. Yeah, we just didn't get invited.

Jason Zook 4:03
I'm just gonna have fun with it. Like I've done one of these before. Literally 10 years ago, I did one of these for my Irish art project. And I remember at that time, I mean, I was so excited because I actually thought it was gonna matter. And I realized it didn't. And I know that it's not really going to matter this time, but I'm just taking it with a grain of salt and just being like, Okay, how can I make this fun? You know, like, what, I'm just gonna be like, how's it going in Cincinnati? Like, I'm gonna pretend to be the radio host or do something weird. So I got to make it fun, you know?

Kathleen Shannon 4:28
And that's what we expect you to do here on being boss today is to just pretend like you are also one of the bosses here.

Emily Thompson 4:35
Right? We all make fun. sound board noises are welcome.

Kathleen Shannon 4:40
Okay. Okay, yes, I will be the little john soundboard so to speak. That's it. You're welcome. Okay. All right. So speaking of I wear your shirt days, I feel like that's whenever you kind of became a big deal. The big deal that you are now was starting with I Wear your shirt. So tell us a little bit about that. And just a little bit about who you are for our listeners who haven't been around for a few years and haven't heard one of your multiple being plus episodes.

Jason Zook 5:10
Yeah, I'll call it going from no deal at all to a small deal. How about that? Because I don't want to say that I'm a big deal. And I still I honestly don't think that at all. Because I think people who are big deals like they kind of you carry that weight. And you also feel like you have to live up to that constantly. And I kind of lived that a little bit. But anyway, I think we'll talk more about that. Towards the end, we've discussed this, but I started this project called eyewear your shirt in 2009. The idea was, I wanted to get paid to wear a different company's t shirt every day and promote them on social media. Now, for everyone listening this now it sounds they're like, okay, yeah, that's fine. That's Instagram influencers, that's YouTubers. That's all this. This is 10 years ago, like Twitter was a baby Facebook was just opening up from being college only, like, YouTube was not really very active. So I was I will give myself credit, I was very ahead of the curve on this. But I also had no clue what I was doing. But the idea was unique. I mean, it was this wear a T shirt every day promote companies on social media create content, we all know that now. But this wasn't a thing. And so when I did it, it was really novel. It was also right after the recession. So I did this pricing scheme where it was $1 on the first day, $2 on the second day, $3 on the third day, so the whole calendar year was for sale. And it was just a way that I wanted to help tell stories of companies that probably didn't get much love or didn't get much advertising. And just try and make money in a weird way. Just do something that wasn't the normal, I was a designer, so like sitting at a desk, you know, punching my keyboard, moving my mouse, it's what I still ended up doing for the most part, but it just felt really unique and interesting to me. And that was really what excited me and, and I found that that was kind of the big deal for me was, holy shit, I can come up with an idea. And I can just do it. And then I can make money and people can find it. And I was so inspired by the million dollar homepage, which was like, even five years before that. So that was like crazy early on. So yeah, that was my start. I did that for five years, I made over a million dollars with that business. I ended up over $100,000 in debt, it didn't go well. I had to fire a bunch of employees. I tried to grow in the startup, you know, kind of mindset because I thought I had to keep up. But I worked with over 1600 brands 10 of which were in the fortune 100 I you know, randomly got a check for $25,000 in the mail and didn't even know who was from like, weird stuff was starting to happen in that time of my life. But I also ended up being super depressed by the end of it super burnt out. I couldn't touch a video camera for five years, because I just did it so much. And yeah, I learned a ton of lessons. But it was fun. It was it's so easy to look back on now. But at the time, it was really tough.

Kathleen Shannon 7:43
And then I feel like whenever I met you your last name was surfer up.

Jason Zook 7:47
Yeah, so I think we got connected around that time. So in 2012 might

Kathleen Shannon 7:52
say I legit thought that your last name was just super.

Jason Zook 7:55
Well, I mean, it was I mean technically like, Yeah, but like for all times. Yeah, yes. It seems like it right. Like it seems like a Norwegian or Swedish name like Oh, yes, sir, for that, you know, just like it makes sense. No, I so I did this I research project and through that I had like sponsored road trip sponsor fitness challenge. Like I just started doing like fully sponsored life pretty much. And it was fun. Like, I really did enjoy it. It like had me do all these cool things. But one not cool thing that happened was my mom ended up going through a divorce. And it was my third last name at the time, because I've been adopted a couple times before that. And so I didn't feel like my identity was shaped by my name. Like so many people, you know, so many people had the same name, like their entire lives, or they get married and like that's the only other name change. So for me, I had three names, and I was stuck with his name with the situation I didn't like. And I just remember going well what if I just sold my last name? Like I don't know what I want my last name to be but I've done all this sponsored, like what have I sponsored last name. So I put up an auction sold my last name, I thought it was gonna make like 5000 bucks, like I would have been super happy with that and ended up making $45,000 the first year and then $50,000 a second year when I became surfer app. So he literally made $100,000 pimping my last name for two years. And then my last name now is my great grandfather's last name who was an entrepreneur himself and I'm kind of carrying his legacy forward which is cool. So you know I had like six last names all with a bunch of weird different stories and but I just feel like my identity was really shaped in those years online and and through these weird projects or these weird things is really like I become like really who I am like 100% me and it feels awesome to have done that through all these crazy projects people like what you did soldier last name you sold t shirts like super weird.

Emily Thompson 9:37
So you've started making a name for yourself, almost literally.

Kathleen Shannon 9:44
Like that. soundboard

Emily Thompson 9:49
doing weird things, but even that was several years ago. What have you been up to since then, and how have you continued bringing this really unique view on how it is that you show up especially on an inner To provide value and make money, like how has that shaped what you've done since then?

Jason Zook 10:06
Yeah, I mean, we could do like hours upon probably all the things that I've done since really 2013. But the very quick version of it is, I wrote my first book, and I didn't want to do it. And you're like anybody else, obviously, people probably already understand that that's not going to happen. So I got sponsors, for every single page of the books at the bottom of every page, there's just like a little 140 character message. It's not obtrusive. In fact, most of the companies just wrote, like, we just wanted to support Jason and his projects, and like, super cool. So my first book made me $75,000 before I wrote a single word of it, which was awesome, because I was afraid to write the book, I had no idea what I was going to write. But I wrote that book. And then I just wanted something easy after that, like, I'd done all these weird big projects that takes so much energy, it takes a lot to, like, just explain to people. So I started dabbling in online courses. And you know, now 2019, as we're recording this online course, it's everywhere. Like we all get it. But it's funny, like, you go to the grocery store, like we're not at the place where everyone's mom knows what they are, right? Like, if you were just asked somebody to do you know, an online courses, they'd be like, what, like, I don't, I don't know what you're talking about. But in 2013, I was just starting to see some people doing this kind of like in our entrepreneurial circle. And I was like, Oh, this seems a lot easier than the crazy stuff I've been doing. And so I started I created a couple of courses, some of my own some with our other being boss boyfriend, Paul Jarvis, and, and that was good. Like, that was much easier money for the time spent in the work going into it. And I liked it. I liked teaching. I like doing it in my own way. But it kind of felt just like, I don't like anyone could do it. And I felt like I was just following other people's plans. So I cobbled together a couple different like little software projects, I made my own online course platform because I couldn't find one that I liked. So I had a software app called a SAS app for everybody in the biz. And I ended up with like eight different projects between courses and software. And then I decided, Okay, I'm ready to do something weird again, and I sold my future. So I sold t shirts, I sold my last name sponsors in a book, and then eventually ended up with this by my future idea where I packaged all of my things up my work things and put them together in like one kind of weird bundle, if you will, and said anyone can buy this for $1,000. And then you get everything I make in the future at no cost. So not at all. And one Kathleen Shannon literally bought it while we were recording an episode of this podcast, I remember, which was super fun, I had no idea you were gonna do that it

Kathleen Shannon 12:28
wasn't by my future is more of like I was trying to just buy your friendship. And when you did ever say 100% work,

Jason Zook 12:35
I will answer all of your emails, all of your texts, all of your slack messages. Other people, I ignore them. They didn't pay me $1,000 Why would I talk to him? Exactly. But yeah, that project was really fun. And that was kind of my way back in from the kind of normal, maybe traditional, you know, entrepreneurial stuff. And man that really lit a fire under me again to just like, do more weird things, put more stuff out there that's different. And so that evolved from by my future, which sold 178 spots, which was my first ever quote unquote, six figure launch, I'd never done anything like that. And I didn't even intend to that just kind of like happened because I think the idea was so unique, and there was so much value in it. And then that moved to by our future. So my wife and I combined, she had some courses and things. And then that last year transitioned into a business we have called wandering aim fully, which is a membership community. And then I had a couple different software projects actually sold most of those off, I just have teacheri now just have wandering aimlessly just have this new book. And then now we're actually starting to dabble in little stuff like Squarespace templates, and like, just trying to balance out the bigger projects that are harder to explain the weird projects with like, Hey, we just want to make some cash this month, you know, like anybody else, like it's just nice to make a couple extra $1,000 with not having to do a whole bunch of extra promotion and sales and all this other stuff. So that's kind of like the I don't know if that was medium long winded version of this stuff I've been doing for the past couple years.

Kathleen Shannon 13:54
I've got some questions. So sure, I'll answer them up. On my very successful podcast, um, I have a question about burnout because this is something that Emily and I have been talking about in our newsletter if you subscribe to our newsletter list, you got an email, a very candid honest email but Emily was even a little bit nervous to hit send on all about our experience of burnout which happened to us really right after our book was published and it was just that like, Hi, you know, success success. I can't say success without sounding like same sex like sex. Sexy success to some sexy success. Anyway, it it led to this burnout that almost has me a little gun shy to be honest. And I'm we're both just now crawling out of it. After a year's worth of work. I got shingles around the same time that your wife got shingles. Yeah. And you know, just like the burnout anxiety is real. And if you get shingles, you know that it's real. Right, if you get to where you can't really crawl out of bed, it's real. If you're crying every day, it's real, the burnout is real. So I guess my questions are one, how did other than the five years of time that it took to, you know, kind of shake off some of that burnout? Is there anything that you did to kind of get past that? And is there anything? Are you ever afraid of hitting that amount of success again? Because Do you feel like it's inevitable that with the highs are well below?

Jason Zook 15:30
Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, the irony here is that as much as we all feel like we're all going through burnout, and it's, you know, oh, man, I can't believe like, I can't believe I'm going through burnout. And then you send that email and you're super hesitant. And then you get like 100 replies of people that are like, I went through burnout. Last year, I had shingles. But you know, it's just like, then everyone comes out of the Woodworks. And I think part of it is that, you know, Emily, where you had hesitation of hitting send on that email. Most people just won't hit send, they won't publish, they won't do anything. They won't even admit that it happened. Because a lot of this is what really burned me out with I reassured which is, we feel like we have to show up online as perfect people all the time. Even if we're saying like, oh, but like I'm I'm unique. And I'm real. And I only show up and do these things. But it's still like a really nice looking photo, it's still a really thoughtful written caption, like, you're not just laying in bed, taking a photo, and like scribbling out some words, and, and I think the constant creative energy that we're having to put in to our work and put out into the world to represent who we are. To me, I think that's the number one cause of burnout for the people in our space and in our bubble. And I don't think there's really any advice that anyone can give, because I feel like in Caroline, my wife, and I talk about this all the time, like, it's the hot stove moment. So it's like, for Emily, it's different for Kathleen, it's different for me, it's different. And you have to get to that point to where your hand is getting so close to me. Like, I feel like I'm kind of sad. And he just like, You burned your hand and you go, Okay, now this has to heal. Now, how long does that take to heal? For some people, it's yours. For some people, it's months. For some people, it may never heal, and you may never come back to doing whatever you were doing. And I just I don't know that there's any way to avoid it. And I think the reason is, because this time that we live in, like all of us that are listening, this podcast, you guys making this podcast, we have not experienced this long enough to understand the repercussions of the things that we do. And there's not enough data, there's not enough time, there's not enough guilt that goes into it. And it's like, we all know, by this point, cigarettes are terrible for you. So if you're gonna smoke a cigarette, you just know, hey, I'm, I'm doing this, it's gonna be bad for me. But we have no idea like how much time we spend on social media is like the effects of cigarette for you. Like if you scroll through social media for an hour, is that as bad as smoking a pack of cigarettes for your mental health? No one knows. Like, we just don't have the data. But I think all of us having these things happen, these burnout moments, I think it's showing us that we just don't know how to directly correlate it, because there's not necessarily a physical act that we're going, I'm doing x, I'm feeling why these, you know, like, there's some type of concurrency here. And just think that another part of this burnout thing is like, I don't know, part of it is, we all have big dreams, right? Like, you know, you guys have awesome things you want to do, I have awesome things I want to do, it takes a lot to do that. And I don't think there's anything that can be stopped with that, at some point, if you just believe so much that you want to do it. And you just have to figure out what happens. Kind of as you go through that process.

Emily Thompson 18:22
That made me feel like I need to take a nap.

Kathleen Shannon 18:26
We all need a nap. Now, just even thinking about burnout. So I suppose for me, I don't know how much both of you either of you will relate to this. But for me, it could be where my stars and planets were lined up whenever I was born, that I have a bunch of stuff in my 10th house Anyway, my identity is my work. Like I see myself as a creative entrepreneur, I see myself as a designer, I see myself as a creative person in general. And that is who I want to be like, whenever I'm on my deathbed. Whenever Emily and I are I don't know if I've ever mentioned this on being Boston over we were writing our book, there were so many like on our deathbed moments that we had to edit out of the book, like we just can't be talking about our deathbed the whole time. But a lot of it is like who is it that you want to be and we have the freedom and flexibility to be our own boss to determine what that is. And so I think that for me, and this ties back to the burnout. I think a lot of this shame happens whenever I feel like I'm not being successful at being who I am. Right. And a lot of that is tied to the success of my work and these like external factors, deciding right so for me, a lot of my burnout recovery was really figuring out who I am, beyond the metrics beyond the work beyond all of the things. So I'm curious to hear from the two of you. Do you feel like your work plays a big part into your identity? And do you think that that leads to burnout? Or you know, do you have any other insights around that topic?

Emily Thompson 19:59
Oh, boy. Yes, I believe that sort of been the overarching sort of lesson I've had to learn. And like inner work, I've had to do pulling myself out of burnout as releasing my ego attachment to the things that I create and produce, and releasing the idea that any amount of my worth is tied to the hours that I clock in, or what it produces. And like, and even saying that out loud, if I don't believe that, like, I think there's still some work to be done where Yes, I still definitely tie my worth, on some level to what it is that I'm able to produce for the world, and not necessarily, you know, within my own family, or at my house or for myself, but it is that like, outward expression of who I am. So that has absolutely been the thing that I think about almost constantly and is obvious, something I still need to think about.

Jason Zook 20:56
And there's so many, like, touch points to external validation. Now, you know, like, likes on Instagram is one but sales of a product is another or compliments of people via email, or meeting someone in person and then talking about like, oh, I've heard your podcast or whatever. And like, all of these things can really build you up. And then you kind of get used to that, right. And that's, I think, a big part of what I had to let go of when I reassured kind of tumbled down toward the end was, I mean, I was talked about on all the news outlets, like I was starting to get text messages from people, like my brother just sent me a photo of you on the Jiffy Lube, like TV screen and the waiting thing, like, what do you what are you doing? And and it's just like, That felt good. Like, I'm not gonna lie that that's super interesting. I mean, it's a stupid thing to like care about that. But I think we all don't know how good external validation feels until you get it. And then it's like a drug. I mean, it's like anything else, like you just kind of get addicted to it. And I don't necessarily know that, you know, for you to ladies, like, some of the things I love about you guys so much is that you're so honest, and you're so real with everything that you do. And I'm not gonna say that a word, Kathleen, don't worry, but authentic.

But I do think that there is something to doing that at all times. it perpetuates the cycle of external validation. And I'm, I'm guilty of it, too, you know, like me creating all these weird ideas and weird things and interesting projects, like, I continue to do it, because it feels so good to continue to show up that way.

Emily Thompson 22:27
Yeah, and something that really hit home for me is, whenever you mentioned the idea, that is this constant creativity that we have to like to do these creative, especially online businesses these days, we are expected to not only produce the thing that we are here to offer people, but to continually produce other things that support that thing and draw people to it. And that, for me has definitely been a place where I've had to draw back from a lot of that sort of peripheral creativity, to focus on the actual creativity. And I think balancing that is one is going to be one of the greater challenges that we all face in this arena is, you know, what are you actually here to create? And how about we make that a priority?

Kathleen Shannon 23:11
We say more about that, Emily? Like what do you mean? Because for me, that shows up even with being boss, like we're talking about the work versus doing the work, even though producing a podcast is a ton of work for sure. For me, it's like my, you know, coming home to graphic design again, you know, I feel like I'm really in it and doing the work. And it's like breathing. To me, designing feels like a second language that I'm incredibly fluent in. And I feel like I'm good at it. And so for me, I think a lot of burnout too happens in a very feel like I don't know what I'm doing. And that's a lot of what entrepreneurship is. And I wonder if that's maybe even the biggest challenge of entrepreneurship is just getting comfortable with not knowing what you're doing. Even Jason, you were talking earlier about during the I wear your shirt days, you didn't know what you were doing. But that's part of what made it so creative and awesome and weird and cool, but it's also what, you know, it's two sides of the same coin, it can also lead to burnout and just feeling insecure and shitty all the time.

Jason Zook 24:14
And This to me is part of the enough mindset, right? Like, I think that's something we've tried to adopt over the years, which is number one, like how much work do we have to do every day? Like what's enough work? Like when can we turn it off because there's always going to be more work to be done like that was for years, like Karolina and I would go on walks every day with our dog and she would go you know, like, how much more work do you have to do today? And I would just be like, well, it's endless like it's it there's never like I you know, I'm done like I don't have to do any work ever again. Like I finished it all Yay. It's just not realistic. And I do think that there's something to be said for defining what enough means across the board both for how creative Do you have to be because that's something we run into of like, how different does this sales page have to look? how unique does this product have to be? How different Does this have to feel once you buy it and like our experience in this thing, that's a lot of effort. And it's just continuing, it never stops. And, and so I think defining both the enough of like, this is good enough for you know, for design, like you run into that Kathleen so much I remember I used to be a designer many moons ago. And you would have to just stop because at a certain point you go, I could keep making this different, I could keep moving things around, I keep changing things, but it's good enough. And I just have to let go. And I think that's so much of what just being a creative person is, is figuring out again, it's almost like the hot stove moment there too, which is, when is it enough to stop. And then on the other side, I think the other thing that we get caught up in a lot as entrepreneurs is the ability to make more money, like it's, we can make money out of thin air to some degree. And if you do that constantly and forever, like you never get off that treadmill, because you just always want to make more money. So you really have to define what is enough for you to stop, or at least to just go Okay, here's my range. And I don't have to go above that, you know, if other people are making a million dollars a year or $100,000 a month or whatever, good for them. But that's not me, I don't want to do that. I don't want to hire people I don't like we're good with this amount of money and we could just move on.

Emily Thompson 26:07
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Kathleen Shannon 27:08
bosses who have signed up for podia have made 10,154 sales for a total of almost $655,000 in revenue. We don't know a boss who isn't currently thinking about scaling their business online. And if you were to ask us about creating online courses, digital downloads and memberships, well, we'd send you to podia. podia is the all in one hassle free platform for online courses, digital downloads and memberships. we've researched all the platforms and hands down podia is the past podia has a 14 day free trial with no credit card required. Try it out for free and get 15% off for life by signing up@podia.com slash bosses. Again, that's podia.com slash bosses. Okay, Jason, I have a couple of questions about making a million dollars that I wear your shirt. So like, super successful, but you were also super depressed. So do you feel like you've adopted any terrible money stories along the way? Like, what's your relationship with money right now?

Jason Zook 28:15
My relationship with money now is good. But there is a little bit of scarcity mindset where I feel like we've just had this thing in the back of our minds of like, we really want to have $100,000 stashed away in a savings account. And we can't quite seem to get there. Like there's always something that comes up. So like Caroline's health earlier this year, like we had to pull money out of savings, cuz we just went to like every holistic doctor there was, which is fine. Like, that's why that money exists. And we absolutely wanted to go that route. And we're so fortunate that we could spend that money and do that. But it's like, we I that's the only part of the scarcity thing for me. And then, you know, also our money is not as repeatable and predictable as people who maybe work nine to five jobs or as people who have like a successful app, and it just makes a bunch of money. And you know, they do that. And that's what we're really trying to work toward. And so I think for me, you know, kind of like my, my biggest thing with money is we got out of debt $124,000 in debt after I reassured it took us two years. And we wrote a whole post about it, if people want to go deep on it, it's at wandering Gamefly comm slash debt. It's also in the book if you want to read it. But a

Kathleen Shannon 29:21
big part of you will include links to all those things in our show notes as well.

Jason Zook 29:25
Cool. And a big part of that for me is now though I have this like even when like $1,000 is on our credit card, I like freak out. I'm like, ah, I don't want to do it. And then I have to take a step back and go Hold on a second. Like it's not possible to like 100% be debt free all the time when you're not at the place where you've figured it all out. And I do feel like we will get to a place like with my software app that I have with our wandering shamefully community and everything like we will be making more money than we spend on a very consistent basis and it will be a more fluid system. But like we're kind of still in the first year of our new business and Just like anybody else, like, even with the years of experience we have, we're still running into Oh crap, like we had $700 we had to spend here and then like this money didn't transfer from stripe fast enough and like, hold on, like, how did we run into a cash flow issue? Again, this is ridiculous. But it's a constant thing that we all deal with, no matter how much we charge, no matter how much we make, I'm just glad now that I don't have like vendor bills of $20,000 to like a T shirt printing company, or even employees, like, you know, we don't have employees. So I don't have money like that, that kind of holds me back. And that was really a big lesson for me, I can't operate a business with those things hanging over my head, it stresses me the hell out. So I like just knowing it's us. And if it ever grows to someone else, being on our team, that's great. But like, we have to have the money in the bank to be able to pay for them and not have to have to like show up every month. And think about it.

Emily Thompson 30:48
It sounds like all of your experience has given you a lot of self awareness as to how it is that you want to show up and be an entrepreneur and know where your boundaries lie. And the things that you create, which is amazing.

Jason Zook 31:01
And it's, it's how we want to do it. Like I think all of us get so excited and inspired and motivated when we read these these stories or these posts, or we hear these podcasts of these successful people. And it's like, dammit, I wish I was just like that person, or I wish I just had like their amount of money or whatever. But the thing that like there's so much context we don't see below the surface of all of that. And I think that's the thing where the self awareness has really kicked in for me, Emily, because on paper, I wear your shirt made $1.2 million in five years. But the context is I was $124,000 in debt, 50 pounds overweight, I had to fire seven employees, including my wife, I hated the video camera, and my entire life was miserable. So it's like on paper. Wow, look at this guy who did the super cool thing. In reality, such a bummer.

Emily Thompson 31:54
And I've heard stories like that so many times do from the people that we love and you know, put on the highest pedestals, they're making 2030 $40,000 a month, but they are the saddest individuals on the face of the planet.

Kathleen Shannon 32:07
And I don't think that you know, making 2030 $40,000 a month is automatically going to make you sad, but I have found that there is some truth to that, like the Mo Money Mo Problems like 100% is Yeah, it's so much more to manage and figure out so for me the enoughness it's like enough to eat out of season avocados. If I want enough to go on vacations enough to afford the house that I live in previously in Oklahoma. Now in Michigan, I don't live in Hawaii, I don't live in California, like, and that's the thing, you know, back to what we were talking about with the comparison trap, though, is that even just recently, someone was mentioned the exact number that I make in my salary. They mentioned that number and acted like it was nothing. They're like, Oh, and I was only making money. And I feel like I've done well for myself until they said that. And I instantly fell into this like, Oh, am I not making enough money. And it really just is this you have to get used to look at your own context and your own circumstances, I make plenty of money for the amount of time that I work for living the lifestyle that I want to live. And it's good, it's good to go. But oh, sorry. One other point that I wanted to make was, I've just gotten to the point of assuming that anyone who I become jealous of on Instagram has like a ton of terrible, awful circumstances or hard decisions that they have to make every single day. You know, like I just don't assume the best that everyone has the best, which is where I used to be probably early in my creative entrepreneurship career, I would look at everyone else and think, oh, they've got it figured out. It's better. It's perfect. They don't have and this really also comes from, you know, working with lots of rock stars and people who are doing incredible things. They have incredible problems that they have to solve constantly. And it's really hard.

Jason Zook 34:09
I posted a incredibly stupid thing on Instagram A while ago, which was like, every successful person that you look up to, at least once every couple months has a really messy poop. Like, it's just like, I don't care how much money you make. I don't care how great your team is, I don't care how great your work is, like you're having one of those situations where it's like, Damn, everything else in life is great, but like right now, this is a bummer. And it's it's both a metaphor and a literal thing but it's like it's the truth is everyone goes through some type of messy situation and it's just a lot of people don't show it and I think the money thing is so interesting. I've actually been thinking a lot about it almost like fitness which I know that you know you ladies definitely care about and see the value in which is you know that if you don't keep up with fitness, your body will not be fit, like you have to keep doing it and it's kind of the same thing with the enoughness mindset of money, which is, every day, you almost have to tell yourself, I make enough money for me. And it's almost like your workout like I'm doing a workout that works for me. I'm not going to be doing a bootcamp seven days a week, three times a day to be like a fitness model who's in the fabrics commercials? Like, I want the legs of the women in those commercials like no, like, I'm just like, wow, I literally would love to have those and wear those pants. But it's it's the same thing with money where you have to show up every day and you have to say, Okay, I don't care what anyone else is making. It does not matter. Do I have the house that I love? Yes. Can I put the out of season avocados on all of the sourdough bread that I want to buy? That's artisanal? Yes. Can I go on the trips? I want to go on? Yes. Do I maybe have to save for them for a year? Yes. But I can do all the things that I want to do. And that's for us. It's the same thing like we have to come back to that continent because we get stuck in these spirals of even previous us like I mentioned the by my future $178,000 launch. I have not done anything close to that in any project sense. And I have comparison traps to previous meeting and I look at that person is like an asshole and I'm just like, God, like how did you make all this money previous me and it's just you can't do that you have to just everyday like the fitness thing like keep showing up. Keep telling yourself it's enough. It's okay, you're moving forward. You're happy. That's all that matters.

Emily Thompson 36:21
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Kathleen Shannon 37:27
Okay, I mentioned that it's really hard and that most people you can assume are going through hard things as entrepreneurs, but I want to talk about the upside a little bit like the upside of money, the upside of entrepreneurship. What excites the both of you the most right now about entrepreneurship and creative entrepreneurship?

Jason Zook 37:48
Emily, I've been talking a lot. So I'm gonna defer to you.

Emily Thompson 37:51
Right? If today is probably not a good day, everyone's

Kathleen Shannon 37:54
like, nothing bad. Just don't do it. Well,

Emily Thompson 37:58
no, but it is because what I will say is I didn't work this morning from like, a long weekend, and was not feeling diving in this morning. So I sat on my front porch, and the rain and I read a totally for pleasure, though, that not that kind of pleasure fiction book.

Kathleen Shannon 38:21
And Emily's reading 50 Shades of Grey, right, right.

Emily Thompson 38:25
Actually, I'm reading the second one. No, totally just kidding. I'm not. Um, but and that, for me was everything to me, for me to be able to make that choice to spend half of my day, just doing what I wanted to do and asking no one for permission, and no one like throw me any, like guilt looks or anything for taking that time for myself. For me, the freedom to choose how I spend the day will always be my favorite thing about being an entrepreneur.

Jason Zook 38:56
We've been saying this to each other a lot lately, which I think anyone can steal, especially people who work for themselves, which is imagine yourself tomorrow, having to get in your car, sit in traffic, drive to an office sit in a cubicle with terrible fluorescent lighting with coworkers you hate with a boss that micromanagers you like crazy, like, imagine that's your life, then look at your current day today. And it's just that perspective is incredible. And it really is so important. It's the same thing I just said about the money in the fitness like every day you have to figure out how do I make sure that I'm not just falling into the like, Oh, well, I had to like send emails for 20 minutes a day. You know, it's like imagine you literally had to sit in like a spreadsheet all day for eight hours and that was your entire existence and I don't mean that as a criticism people I think ml would love

Kathleen Shannon 39:41
that. I think Emily's like oh my god, this is an option. Yes,

Emily Thompson 39:48
screw my inbox. Give me this spread. Now, everyone has their thing everyone Exactly. Everyone has the thing that they would hate doing all day. They think they would love doing it takes all kinds for sure. But I think you're right. And that has been one of the things that has kept me very grounded over probably the entirety of my career. Every time things get hard. Every time things get boring, or every time I'm not making enough money, or a client is being obnoxious or you know, a launch doesn't go as well, or it does go great. Whatever it may be. It is always that though, that keeps me really grounded, like the ability that we have to shape our own day, and to weed out the things that we don't want to to not have that commute to not have to sit in fluorescent lighting, because that would be the death of me. Right? Those for us to have the freedom to make those choices for ourselves is is everything.

Jason Zook 40:42
And going back to your question, Kathleen, for me, the thing that I have learned in love about entrepreneurship and like doing my own thing is, like this specific example for me as teachers, so teachers, this online core software that I have, I've never marketed it, I've never promoted it, it's only ever just been mentioned in things. And the entire goal is it's just a side project, I wanted it, I wanted to build it for other people. So they could have a great platform. And over the years, it has made a very modest amount of money. And we're getting to the point now, where it's making decent money. It's about $7,000 a month that it's making. And there's no marketing, there's no promotions, there's no nothing. But I'm at this really interesting place where I decided to buy out my original co founder, because he's just not in it anymore. Super amicable departure, which is great. So I'm buying him out for like the next couple months, I brought in another developer to replace him to like do features and all this other stuff. And we're running into like hiccups and things just like you do when you're building things. But the really interesting thing that I now see with tea tree that I haven't been able to see for years, is in about six months, I'm going to go from making $0 because I'm investing everything in buying out the partner and paying this developer to making what looks like as a forecast of about seven to $8,000 a month, just for our family like just for me, which is incredible. So that to me is like one of the greatest things of entrepreneurship is sure it may take years, it may take a lot of work, it may take a lot of effort. But you can get to a place where something is making use such an exponential return on your time and on your investment that you can't see anywhere else. And, you know, for teachery, who knows how long this kind of ecosystem online courses get me wrong, I think it's gonna be around for a while because I think this is the future of education is being able to choose your teachers and the things you want to do and all that stuff. And we're all benefiting of that, right? Like we've all taught stuff. And it's it's proven really to work well. But I'm so excited for Okay, that's next year, what does two years look like. And now if it's double that, I don't need to go any higher than that that's a great amount of money. Because I don't want to have again, I don't have employees and other things. But that, to me is the beauty of entrepreneurship. Kathleen is really this ability to make your own money, and continue to grow that on your own pace at your own level with your own decisions. And you don't have to fall into any of the like. And that's what I talked about in the book, like you don't have to follow other blueprints, you don't have to follow their path, like you make your own. You figure it out, you do it your own way, it may get a little bit muddy, it may be a bit messy at times cue the poop sound effect. But it's it's just all part of the process.

Kathleen Shannon 43:06
Yeah, so I'm actually curious, going back to your early days of entrepreneurship and feeling like you didn't know what you were doing? Like, how's that feeling lifted? Or have you just become comfortable with that feeling of not knowing what you're doing? Or have you learned that that's the magical part of making something innovative and creative?

Jason Zook 43:23
I think it went it's gone from scared and nervous to now like, maybe, like confused, but a lot of opportunity. You know, like before, it's like, oh, I don't know, like, I don't know how he's gonna do now. It's like, I just don't know what works anymore. You know, like, I've done so many things. And it's just all been so different. And Carolyn and I talk about this all the time, or like, how can we just make this easier on ourselves. And the problem is that when we try to make it easier, it gets boring. And I think that's the big difference for me is that I need the like fire of the uniqueness in projects, I need the different thing. I more than money. I mean, money is important. Yes. But I need people to tell me, oh, like this is different than I've ever seen. Or this feels so unique. Because we live in such a like time when everyone's created everything by this point. So to create something that is different or to do something in your own way. And that's that's really kind of the whole reason why I wrote the book was just to illustrate the fact that number one, it is possible, even for like for me like I'm just a nobody like anybody else. But two, it also feels really good when you define what that means to you. And it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to get I mean, it will get easier, but it's not ever going to be like just kind of like print money constantly. And I think that for me is really the differences. It's still a mess, and it's still confusing, and it's still a little bit of like, why haven't we figured out wandering aimlessly, but I'm also like, it's still fun to figure it out. And there's a lot of things we can do to figure it out and see how that goes.

Kathleen Shannon 44:53
Yeah, I think that that's huge. Everything is hard. This is what I've learned about being a grown up like everything is hard. But how can you choose? Where to find the values in the hard work? Right? So for me, my values might be I need security. And I need honesty. Right? So where can I find that in the actual work that I'm doing? for Emily? It's freedom. So where can you find the freedom in the hard work that you're doing? Jason, I have no idea what you value. I'm just kidding. It's control and being weird, like so control and being weird, like, so where do you find that in the hard work, like, it's really just about choosing your battles. And then actually seeing that there's a lot of creativity and joy are all the things that you wanted, are right there in the hard work.

Jason Zook 45:42
And there's something really interesting too, and I know you ladies have come up across this. But the reframing for me of changing obstacles to opportunities has been an incredible mindset shift for me. So it's like when something goes wrong, or when something gets difficult, how can I not see this as a roadblock that completely stops all momentum, and instead see it as an opportunity to improve something or to make an experience better, or to apologize to a bunch of customers, if something didn't go the way that I hoped it would, and then you build fans for life, right? Like if you really just give them more than they thought. And so this opportunity is not obstacles, thing has just been a really nice mental framework thing for me of your website's gonna go down, your idea is gonna fall flat, no one's gonna buy the first course that you make, your Instagram isn't gonna grow. But all of that doesn't have to be an obstacle, it can be an opportunity for you to go okay, but how do I do this in a way that I still feel good about no matter what the external validation is? And then also, how do I go get that external validation? Like, what does that look like? And how can I be creative and unique and fun with that?

Emily Thompson 46:43
I think that that's one of the magic things about being an entrepreneur for as long as we all have is that you get past the fear and anxiety. Well, I say that it still springs up sometimes for sure. But you get past the daily fear and anxiety and you start aligning yourself with what it is that you value, and you see the opportunities. All of those things. I think I think that that is that is what is instilled in you when you stick with it even when it is hard.

Jason Zook 47:19
Yeah. And I think like this didn't end up making it in the book. But I've talked about this in couple different places. Like

Kathleen Shannon 47:26
what is your book called?

Jason Zook 47:28
Only your its own? You're weird. And by the time this goes up, it should be everywhere. Except for Walmart. I don't know why didn't get on Walmart. huge bummer. No, it's but it is, it's, it's on all the things I recorded the audio books, if you're an audible person, I'm actually really excited to hear from you. So if you do buy the audio version, please let me know if it was fun. I had a lot of fun recording it. Hopefully, you've heard that I'm kind of weird and silly. So I tried to put that into the audio book. But yeah, on your weird, it's on all the different places. But what I was gonna say is so you bring up the the fear and anxiety. And Emily, I think you're right, the way that I've thought about this is like fear is essentially and I think I stole this from Liz Gilbert subconsciously. And you ladies can tell me because you may know this Gilbert stuff more than I do. But basically, like you have a smart car, which is your entrepreneurial life, and you're driving it. But fear is essentially like passenger screaming in your face, right. And so it's just really hard to do anything because fear is just in your face constantly. But then as you get further along your entrepreneurial journey, guess what your smart car turns into like a 1988 Ford Taurus, and it gets a little bit longer and fear maybe moves to the backseat, and you can still hear fear is still screaming at you. But like it's just a little further away, like you're a little bit more detached from it. And I feel like the longer you go through entrepreneurship and do stuff, the more stretched out the car gets, you know, and eventually it's like this big ikana line van like limos, creepy white van with no windows, but fears like all the way in the back. And you've even put up like a retaining wall or something and you can't it's like a muffled sound. So it's still there. And I think even like for me, I'm 13 years into being an entrepreneur, I'm working for myself, if you're still comes up, like we just launched a project this morning as of recording this. And, of course, I still had fear that no one's gonna buy people we're gonna hate it. All the work we do is gonna be for not, but I didn't let that stop any of the things that we were doing and it really didn't slow us down. It just was like a muffled sound in the back of my brain as opposed to when I started over your shirt. Fear was screaming at me in the face and I had to do everything in my power to just not let it derail me. And a lot of that just becomes just being naive and just going like okay, but I just want to see what's gonna happen fear like you can yell at me but like I still just want to try.

Kathleen Shannon 49:33
So I I felt so blessed by my knife knave, hi, the hardest time with that word and do it sexy success. Come on, you got this naive at my evety Harvey one. You want to put a little little spice on it? Yeah. I feel incredibly blessed by how much I didn't know whenever I first started. And it was really just one step at a time and there was a lot of excitement in it. And so those First two years. All right, let's get this off the ground. Let's see if it works. Oh, it's working. It's working. Okay, now let's scale it and grow it. Oh, okay, we can do that, too. The opportunities are endless. And then around years four and five, maybe even 645 and six, I started to know more of what I don't know. I've been in it long enough that there was some things about it that just felt like a chore or felt like, you know, a capital J job. It almost felt like a day job again, right? And I was realizing, oh, I have a lot of bosses. Every client is a boss. And, and then the fear really geared up and I was like, oh, now I've found success. How do I maintain the success? How do I keep growing it? I'm exhausted. How do I have a family at the same time? It was just a lot, right? And so I'm just now after this year of burnout after we published our book. I'm just now coming back around to Okay, fears in the backseat. For me, it's a lot more like parenting. Like, there's no retaining wall. Yeah, the van hasn't gotten bigger. If anything, the car has gotten smaller, shrunken back down. Yeah. But this kid is screaming at me. Pro parenting tip. This pretend like your kid is always tripping acid. And you're just trying to keep from having a bad trip, right? And so you just need to like, protect them and make them feel safe. So that's what I've done with my fear is I've said, okay, you're I hear you screaming at me. Are you hungry? angry, lonely, tired? What is it that you need to shut up? And then I give it that thing, right? So that thing might be looking at my bank account and really organizing things or going through CEO day kit and getting it on paper and seeing, okay, what's our plan? You know, having a plan in place oftentimes mitigates fear it is looking at, okay, what is enough? It's really just analyzing it and looking at it and saying, okay, you're good, I'm gonna go ahead and launch this thing anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and do this thing anyway. Also, becoming completely okay with being average has been huge for my mindset lately, like, I actually don't have to be the best, I don't have to be the fitness model, I don't have to be the number one podcast, I don't have to have a seven figure launch, I can just be completely average. And life is pretty good. And I think

Jason Zook 52:24
some of that, first of all, that, to me is kind of like the ethos of my book is like, your what you're saying is average is what I say is weird. So it's you finding your own baseline, it's you finding your own thing. But I do think that that's kind of the thing that you can't tell people, which is, you kind of have to go for being a seven figure business, you kind of have to go for having a number one podcast and iTunes, only to realize that what it takes to get that is not what you want to be doing. And you constant like I think we all like, especially you ladies know, like your, your women in entrepreneurship, who constantly see other women in entrepreneurship, who are doing like the perfect like, I think it's just different between men and women. Like when I look at female entrepreneurs on Instagram, I just look at like, cash, like I kind of just wish there was just more like real you, you know, like I but I understand also that like the time that we live in, and I'm not wanting to necessarily like take this conversation on. But it's like, a man can pose all these different phones and buildings and things and it's a much less scrutiny. And then a woman does all this different stuff. But then there's also the business thing and that whole side of it. And I think that coming to that baseline is so important for everybody. But I do think that like the harsh reality is you kind of have to go for it a little bit until you realize again, hot stove moment of like, Yeah, but I don't want to do that. I don't want the perfectly posed life on Instagram. I don't want the perfect podcast, it's number one on iTunes, because I know we have to like structure every episode and record every soundbite and do this and then have the soundboard of Little Johnny to pay little john every single episode you know, it's like you have to do all these things that you don't want to do at all. And and that to me is just such a interesting part of this the overtime I think it only comes to realize or show itself and kind of present itself as that is an actual opportunity. That's okay as well to be quote unquote average or to be weird or to just be who you want to be. And that is good enough. And that is interesting. And that is unique. And that is going to bring success to you and how you define it.

Kathleen Shannon 54:21
A huge part of figuring this out too, as you go is having conversations with people so people might not know is that the four of us. The fourth not being here is Paul. So Emily and I with you Jason and Paul Jarvis. We each get together once a month and we chat through like what we're working on. We're talking about work. We're talking about life. We're talking about how much money we're making, we're talking about what's working, we're talking about what's not working. And for me that has what it that has helped me sort through what it is that I value, what you know what's working for you and am I willing Do that, what's not working for you that I might be, especially skill that and that's easy for me, you know. And so it's really figuring out context with people that you trust, and people that are going to be candid with you and honest with you. And that's just I just want to make sure that I throw that out here to is that you have to have real conversations with an inner circle of people that you trust, that you can get incredibly candid with. And it will just help you figure it out as you go. That's why we hit publish on these conversations. And I love those conversations too. Because like, even in the times that we've been doing them, Emily started Almanac while we were doing it, and I love it, because I'm like, well, eventually, I

Jason Zook 55:41
want to do some physical product stuff. So now I have this person that I have a great connection with, that I can ask all these questions. And I think you see that probably Emily all the time on those calls. I'm always like, talking about Almanac, you know, like, what's going on? Like, what are you doing? Like, I remember when like the storage of Almanac was behind you and our calls. And I was like, oh, what do you have, you know, like what's going on, and now it's moved to its own space. And I think that those conversations become so much more effective and helping you grow and helping you get motivated, inspired, as opposed to like continual scrolling and following and consuming of other people who are just having only a highlight reel of their lives being shown. But yeah, we have these calls. And you know, and I'm just throwing this out as an example. But Emma could be like, oh, like, all of our inventory didn't show up on time. You know, like we could like that didn't happen to you. But like, that's a real thing that I can hear for you. And I go Okay, so for me, I kind of put that in the back of my mind, like, I'm gonna have to deal with inventory issues if I start a physical products company. But Kathleen, your point is that like surrounding yourself with like minded people, I think even people that are on your same level two is helpful. It's why for me, I've never had a mentor, because I feel like my competitive nature, I would just want to be that person or I would want to beat that person. And it's why I've never sought to have any of those people. I've always just said, Where are the Paul Jarvis is of my life. There's only there's only one, Paul Jarvis. Come on, let's be company of one, but also Paul of one. But like, how do you find those people, and that just becomes looking for them looking in groups, joining groups, like I think that's why having a membership community, you ladies had a membership community, we currently have one, people start to create connections within that community that are incredible, because they're on a like minded scale, and you're not trying to go for some big thing that doesn't really kind of resonate with what you actually want in your life.

Kathleen Shannon 57:27
The last thing I want to mention about that is that entrepreneurship isn't going anywhere, if anything, it's growing more and more, we've all heard the stats that by 2021 75% of the United States is going to be working for themselves. I'm making that up. I just totally we need to fact check. I think

Jason Zook 57:46
it's actually I think it is 40% is actual the actual number that they've forecasted. But you're right, like it is okay.

Kathleen Shannon 57:51
40%, because I was actually thinking legitimately 50%, and I only see it growing. And with the opportunity that I really see here, though, is that it's going to become less of a scary, uncertain, unknown thing, more and more people are doing it. And my hope is that we can all band together and demand certain benefits or change the culture of the workforce, I think that already is becoming so much more flexible and accommodating to I don't know how to hear kid home for the day, or being able to run into like mental health issues for a few weeks or months at a time. So that's really exciting to me, and I hope that it eases some of the anxiety of working for yourself is that everyone's going to be in on it together.

Jason Zook 58:37
But I think the two things are gonna happen there that you just have to be realistic about one when more people are there, it means that there's kind of more competition for those things. Now more competition is good, because that means that people are willing to pay for something, so that's fine. The second part of that is you have to own your weird. So that is how you stand out. It's why people hire braid creative. It's why Emily, people buy from you and the things that you do. It's why people find the being boss podcast. It's why people pick up your buckets, why they pick up our products and stuff. It's because we have our own layer of difference kind of woven through all of our products and things. And I think that you ladies, you ladies talking here, people listening to this, like, you look up to people, not just because of what they do, but because of who they are. And that for me is so much what I've found in my life is like I'm just attracted to the weirdos, I'm attracted to the people who do things differently. That is going to become such an important thing in owning your own business and being an entrepreneur. It doesn't mean you have to be weird. It just means you have to find what makes you different and unique so that you do stand out from the 39 other percent of people who are now moving into this type of workforce.

Kathleen Shannon 59:47
I would like to wrap this up by asking you what are like just some top line key takeaways that we can use to own our own weird what would those be?

Jason Zook 59:57
I think you touched on one which is really defined Your core values. So you know, that's such a rote thing at this point. It's such a thing that so many people have said, but I think a lot of people read about it and see about it, and they don't do about it. I didn't just make that up on the fly that for some reason is the same as getting my brain. But I do think that it's something where people don't take the time to actually go, Okay, let me sit down and write this out. Like, what are the things that matter to me? Not what have I read? Not what is like someone else? Like, what is it for me? So I think that's number one. I think number two is realizing there is no map to success, there is no straight line to success. It's the map that you create. And for me, and what I've learned, and I think you ladies can attest this, it's a treasure map. It's not a straight line drawn across two different continents. It's a weaving, winding, dotted go through sunken treasures, and you find the trip the ship that's like shipwrecked, and you have to navigate through like it's all these weird metaphors. But it's just a weaving winding path through becoming successful in whatever that means for you. And I think the last thing is just really owning who you are. So, again, you said average, Kathleen, I don't think you or Emily are average by any means at all. I think you both are so unique and fun. And it I wouldn't spend time every month talking to you if you weren't like I don't have interest in hanging around average people I want to hang around people who inspire me make me laugh or fun or interesting. And so figuring that out for yourself as a person who's just trying to navigate the world as well. You can do that you just have to look within a little bit and and truthfully, there are exercises throughout the book that help you do that. But if people aren't gonna buy the book, I don't care like it's still to me just matters that someone goes yeah, you know what, I am a little bit weird. Like I do crack jokes. I do have a little john soundboard I use all the time. Like it's whatever those things are for you. Those are the things that I think are the most important because it really starts to show you. Oh, yeah, life is worth living because I'm showing up 100% me I am being sorry, Kathleen, authentic and it is true to who I am in kind of this space.

Emily Thompson 1:01:57
Wonderful. I'm so glad that you can't even duck out like Kathleen's hiding. See. Okay, believe me. Cool.

Kathleen Shannon 1:02:11
Let's try one more time.

Emily Thompson 1:02:14
Thank you so much for having to chat with us. Jason. You told us where people can get your book everywhere but Walmart Where else can people find you?

Jason Zook 1:02:22
Yeah, wandering aimlessly. Calm is the business. My wife and I run together. We're kind of just trying to figure it out like anybody else. You know, we've gone through some ups and downs. We've learned a lot of lessons this past year. But yeah, all of our YouTube Instagram, all that stuff is linked from there. But yeah, just super excited for people to maybe try and own their weird if they've listened to this and they're like, yeah, okay, I want to know what this is about this book. seems weird. Grab it. Not a Walmart. Sorry, again. Can't get it there. But yeah, that's it. Thanks for joining us.

Emily Thompson 1:02:55
Thanks for listening. And hey, if you want more resources, we're talking worksheets, free trainings in person meetups and vacations and more. Go to our website@www.de vos dot club.

Kathleen Shannon 1:03:08
Do the work. The boss