How to Set Goals Like a Boss with Paul Jarvis

[00:00:10] Emily Thompson: Being Bosses hard, blending work and life is messy making a dream job of your own isn't easy.

[00:00:17] Kathleen Shannon: But getting paid for it, becoming known for it and finding purpose in it is so doable.

[00:00:23] Emily Thompson: If you do the work.

[00:00:26] Kathleen Shannon: Being Boss is a podcast for creative entrepreneurs, brought to you by Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon.

[00:00:32] Emily Thompson: Hi, I'm Emily and I own Indie shopography where I help passionate entrepreneurs establish and grow their business online by helping them build brands that attract and websites that sell. I help my clients launch their business so they can do more of what they love and make money doing it.

[00:00:50] Kathleen Shannon: And I'm Kathleen, I'm the co-owner of Braid Creative, where I specialize in branding and business visioning for creative entrepreneurs who want to blend who they are with what they do narrow in on their core genius and shape their content.

[00:01:04] So they can position themselves as experts to attract more dream clients.

[00:01:09] Emily Thompson: And Being Boss is a podcast where we're talking shop, giving you a peek behind the scenes of what it takes to build a business, interviewing other working creatives and figuring it out as we go right there with you.

[00:01:21] Kathleen Shannon: Check out our archives at lovebeingboss.com.

[00:01:25] Emily Thompson: Welcome to episode number 35. This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks cloud accounting. A couple of episodes back, we talked about fear. So we wanted to follow up that episode with getting specific about what you do want. And other words, we're talking all about setting goals and focusing on what you want rather than all the scary stuff.

[00:01:49] And we're bringing our boss, boyfriend, Paul Jarvis in to join the conversation. And I think we all have pretty different approaches and views when it comes to goal setting.I don't think you're going to want to miss this one.

[00:02:04] Kathleen Shannon: If you're building a business and feeling intimidated or unorganized, whenever it comes to managing your money, billing your clients and tracking your expenses, trust us, you are not alone.

[00:02:14] That's where our friends FreshBooks comes in. FreshBooks is the easy to use online cloud accounting designed specifically for creative entrepreneurs who did not major in financing, and they are there to help you run your business and make you look like a pro while doing it. All right. So here's the deal talking about money with your clients to be super awkward, but FreshBooks is one of my secret weapons.

[00:02:36] Whenever I send out a legit invoice from FreshBooks customized with my logo, I don't really feel like I'm begging for spare change from my clients. Instead, I feel really confident like, Hey, I'm a business person with real accounting software. Here's your invoice and here's exactly how you can pay me.

[00:02:53] All right. Try FreshBooks for free today. Go to freshbooks.com/beingboss and select Being Boss on how did you hear about us section.

[00:03:01] Paul thanks for joining us. We just introduced to you as our Being Boss boyfriend thing, and today's episode is all about the goals setting. So we wanted you to come on with us, not so much as like an expert to tell people what to do, but just as our friend, we're curious to hear what you have to say about goal setting and, we're basically trying to trick you into coming on to all of our podcasts.

[00:03:28] I just keep emailing you like, Hey, do you want to come on the podcast and talk about fear or goals or money?

[00:03:35] Paul Jarvis: No, I love it. Definitely sign me up for the grammar episode, whatever you want to do, just say.

[00:03:44] Kathleen Shannon: All right. And our listeners can find out more about you and your online course and sign up for your newsletter at pjrvs.com.

[00:03:52] But we'll also include that in the show notes.

[00:03:54] Paul Jarvis: Awesome.

[00:03:55] Kathleen Shannon: You guys, let's dive in like, I'm feeling the vibe here and I want to keep going with it. So let's talk about, I don't have an agenda at all, like for today's episode. So like one of you start, like, what do you think about goal setting? I feel like this is

[00:04:11] Emily Thompson: Emily's the winging it today, guys.

[00:04:14] So my goal for the day is to wing a podcast and not have it completely fall apart. How about that? Goals are huge. Goals are really big for, for doing anything in life or business. Obviously you want to do something, you set a goal and you do it and you make it and you have five. But yeah, let's talk goals.

[00:04:34] I am a metrics person. I like to set numbers. I like to dream big and make really big numbers and usually fall short, but that's fine. Cause it makes me better anyway.

[00:04:45] Kathleen Shannon: It doesn't leave. You like sobbing into your pillow. Like I need to get my I'm such a failure.

[00:04:51] Paul Jarvis: So I have a question, even though I'm the guests, am I, I guess I'm allowed to ask questions.

[00:04:58] Kathleen Shannon: You are the boss boyfriend, and you can say an interject whenever you want.

[00:05:02] Paul Jarvis: Okay. So Emily, how do you come up with the numbers for the goals that you set?

[00:05:06] Emily Thompson: I usually set realistic goals and then I double them.

[00:05:11] Paul Jarvis: So how do you come up with realistic numbers then? Like let's, let's die. Let's dive in deep here.

[00:05:15] Emily Thompson: Let's do this. Okay. Let's talk. Let's talk about like revenue. Revenue's probably the easiest number to do. And at this point, five years in, Would we have a good growth pattern going. So it's easy for me to look at previous years worth of revenue and like looking at individual months. Cause I have big months, like, spring and fall are always really big for me.

[00:05:35] Winter summer are usually pretty small. And I can, I see the patterns and I can, look at like just growth projections, hoping that it continues to grow at the same rate, if not more than, it has been. And I will set goals based on that. So let's say, last year, God haven't, I don't even last year, I think we made about 150.

[00:05:59] We'll get super real with this one, 150,000 last year. Just go in there and yeah, why not? And this year I have the goal, my realistic goal is two 50, but I doubled it.

[00:06:13] Kathleen Shannon: So your goal for this year is to make half a million dollars.

[00:06:16] Emily Thompson: Yes. Yes, I know. Right. And so the sobbing in your pillow question. Because I know that I have a realistic goal and honestly, that's the realistic goal

[00:06:27] I always make, always make the realistic one. But having that sort of fake when the fake crazy one, it makes me still push harder. So not only do I always meet that goal, but I always usually, well, I always, usually that's not even correct grammar

[00:06:46] Paul Jarvis: whenever you can, whenever I can. I'm not going to let that go.

[00:06:52] Emily Thompson: That's fine. Whenever I can, I will, far exceed the usual goal. I never make the dreamy goal. So it's not like I go into it. Not, I really didn't expect to make half a million this year. Like that would have been great, but like, just knowing that that's my number that I tell myself, makes me reach the smaller goal and exceed.

[00:07:14] Kathleen Shannon: It's not even really a goal then. Right. You're just like, I'd like to make half a million dollars. I sure. Great.

[00:07:21] Emily Thompson: No. So half a million is the goal that I work off of. Like, I work off, like I'm going to launch things and get projects and, you know, email constantly to make sure that I'm making the connections and doing the work and making my clients happy.

[00:07:35] So that's like a hundred or 500 is my goal. David, the one who actually runs like the actual business side of business, his goal is 250. So, I don't know, it's it, it's just how I see it in my head. But I do set numbers and I doubled them and I dream really big. And I always like exceed everyone else's expectations, even though they were mine.

[00:08:04] Paul Jarvis: So you, so you, basically, your goals are basically based on projections from previous data and seeing like, so you pick like KPIs that are based on like the upward trend of, of more, I guess.

[00:08:18] Emily Thompson: Yes, exactly. Pushes hard. What about you?

[00:08:23] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. So, okay. Whenever I emailed you Paul, and I was like, Hey, when I come hang out on the show, you were like, I was like, we're talking about goals.

[00:08:30] And you're like, oh, so like, what was that about?

[00:08:34] Paul Jarvis: So, yeah, because, well, I've, I've written about goals before and I've basically like thrown down the gauntlet about not really having specific. Like I don't, like, I honestly don't have specific goals like for client work that I do, we definitely work off of like smart projections and developing things with numbers.

[00:08:56] So it's not like I want to grow my traffic. Oh, grow your traffic then, but it's like, I want to grow my traffic by 400 subscribers per month and have it increased by 200% in three months. So we have like very specific things because then we can work off like, okay, what's the daily goal for that, but for my own stuff, like when I started working for myself, I was like, in my early twenties forever ago, my goal was basically to make a million dollars a year.

[00:09:22] And I was like, this is good. This is like, I just got to get this. And then I realized like six months in that I'm so not motivated by money enough to like keep working 16 hours a day. And at that time I was just doing client work. So in order to make that money, I would just have to keep working more and more hours, whereas products, it's obviously a lot different.

[00:09:40] So I scrapped that idea of a million dollars a year. And it was just like, instead of having goals, I'm just going to have like directions. So like, I want to make products. I want to work with freelancers. I want to work with creative. So I'm just going to like run screaming that way. And see what happens like for my latest launch, the creative class, I had no goals with that.

[00:10:02] Like my goal was basically to, I wanted to have fun making it, and I accomplished that before I launched it. And then I was happy. I was happy with that. Obviously it does extremely well now, but I didn't really set a goal for that. I look at metrics for sure. Like, I definitely look at, growth in revenue and, like audience stuff, but I don't do much about it unless I see that something's going horribly wrong, which luckily it hasn't.

[00:10:30] But like if my, if my conversion rates dropped to zero, that'd be like, okay, my goal is to fix this shit right now, but that doesn't really happen. So, yeah, I don't really, I don't know. I like the process more than I like the outcome. Cause I feel like I'm not in control of outcomes to a certain degree.

[00:10:48] Like you can launch and you can hope to make half a million or a quarter million dollars, but there's so many other variables and factors. I dunno, I can't control any of that really. Like I know how to do the best I can and work my hardest, but past that.

[00:11:04] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. Whenever I first started freelancing. So before I even started Braid, I remember thinking I don't want to set goals or make a business plan.

[00:11:13] Like I just want to track and measure where I'm at. So whenever it comes to metrics and goals, I like to just track where I'm at and then kind of like Emily, see where I'm at and increase from there, but setting that initial goal is really scary for me. So whenever Emily and I first started Being Boss, she's like, okay, let's make some goals.

[00:11:32] And I was like, okay. My goal is I want to make this thing. That's so fun and have a place where I can just be really candid and feel good about sharing content again. And Emily was like, uh,

[00:11:48] she was like, how about. How many people do we want listening? How many subscribers do we want our newsletter? How much money do we want to make that sort of thing? So I was like, what money numbers? What are you talking about? But it was really cool. I really liked how she pushed me into goal setting in a way that I'm not used to.

[00:12:09] Because what was fun is that we were then able to celebrate those whenever we hit them. So it just kind of gave us an excuse if anything, to celebrate.

[00:12:18] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. I think the other thing is that I think a lot of times we make like unrealistic goals. Like our dreams become our goals and then that's like scary, scary waters because it's like, dreams are good to have, but it's like very difficult to reach those, especially because I find as well, like I see people that I work with or people that I teach that just set goals, but then don't do like the daily required minimums.

[00:12:45] Like if you want to have like two or 300 people sign up for your mailing list every day, then you need a certain number of people per day. And if you're not doing anything, then that's a dream. It's not a goal. So I feel like goals are only things that exist. If you are actively working towards them. Maybe that would be a definition that I would run with, because if you just have that goal, but don't do anything, then that's a dream good for you for dreaming, but you're not doing anything to get there.

[00:13:12] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Oh, I like a dream is a wish your heart makes right. I think I read a quote yesterday and I'm kind of mad I didn't bring the book. I started reading, do the kind thing, by I'm the CEO of the kind are you feeling mean? The mean person guys really mean no, he's, he's the CEO of kind, which is the, like a granola bar company.

[00:13:40] And they'd kill me if I called them. Like, they heard me call them the granola bar company. But, they're the whole premise of their brand is, built around like doing the kind thing and being good people and all that jazz. And they had a really good quote in there about how, how imagination pushes dreams, but then like you set goals from dreams.

[00:14:01] And I liked the idea of a dream becomes a goal when you start taking action towards it. I have this really funny story. Whenever we were in college, David had to take a, like a freshman seminar class. And, they all do, he's going to kill me for telling the story. And they all had to draw a picture of where they wanted to be when they grew up.

[00:14:25] They were all starting out their college career and everyone, apparently in the class was drawing themselves as teachers and like whatever they were going to school for it. And David drew a photo or a picture of himself, laying next to a pool with a big pile of money. Like that's what he wanted to do when he grew up was just like live the life with lots of money.

[00:14:48] And, I've made fun of him literally for years because of this. But it's been a goal that we're working towards quite honestly. And today he is at his parents' house, swimming in the pool and he like, he worked on like managing the money of our business this morning. I told him, I was like, you realize that this is literally what you've been working towards.

[00:15:11] Hanging out by the pool instead of a pile of money, you have a laptop, which is the same thing, more or less. And, it became a funny dream that he's actively been working towards and totally gets to live it up sometimes. I think that whether it's metrics or like inspiration or direction, it is all goals that we're working for.

[00:15:36] I have to be super specific with numbers. Like that's how I push myself is numbers. Kathleen likes feeling.

[00:15:47] Kathleen Shannon: What does it feel well? Okay. So I have to tell you, I went to the energy doctor on Friday.

[00:15:53] Emily Thompson: How did that go?

[00:15:54] Kathleen Shannon: All right. So I go to the energy doctor basically, because I've been feeling. I don't know, probably a little angry and just scattered spread thin, you know? And he was like, no, are, are you, I'm a control freak?

[00:16:09] And I was like, well, yeah, I mean, I'm getting shit done. Right? Like, or would you guys define yourselves as control freaks? Yes. Yeah. Right. Because like, this is the difference. And so he was like now, and he's a little woo. So he was like, you need to focus on the what and not the, how. And I was like, it's my job.

[00:16:30] I'm like the how person for a lot of other people's whites, you know? So, but I love hearing David's story of laying by the pool with a ton of money because he probably wasn't focused on the, how he was just like, here's my vision. And now here, you know, here we are and he's at the pool.

[00:16:51] Emily Thompson: Right. And managing a lot.

[00:16:53] I mean, like

[00:16:53] Kathleen Shannon: counting a lot of money

[00:16:55] Emily Thompson: because he's counting money. He is, he's spending lots of money. Like he pays everyone and does all the things, I mean, we're, we're buying a house. So like he's dealing with all of that, but he's, he's doing it from the laptop by the pool. So exactly. He was super focused on the what, not really caring about the how, and ended up getting there anyway, which

[00:17:17] Kathleen Shannon: so it's awesome.

[00:17:19] And silly. Going back to the energy doctor. I didn't believe him. I kind of was like rolling my eyes and thinking, oh my God, how am I going to tell my husband this story? Who is my husband's a total atheist, not into the what or the how, or the energy doctor. Right. He's like, you're just spending how much on this guy.

[00:17:43] So then I was like, okay, I'm going to focus on my what. And then I did realize that maybe there is a little bit of that lacking right now. Like I've been so reactionary and forced into my present moment that I haven't really had time to get super dreamy. And so for me, I think that goals and dreams are kind of the same.

[00:18:02] And, and it's really about for me, goal setting is really about deciding what it is that you want. And so for me, a lot of times it's a feeling Paul, you just described it to you. Like, I just want to have fun making this course it's about the process, not really the destination, which is funny. My sister is the same way, who is my business partner.

[00:18:23] We used to work at an advertising agency together, and I remember one time we were doing this huge pitch and it was all spec creative, which is basically creative that you do for free before the person ever hires you. And it's usually based on like, no logic is just, let's make something that looks cool.

[00:18:42] So we spent, I mean, hundreds of hours, lots of money doing this really cool spec creative campaign. We almost like completely transformed our office. These like a bunch of old white dudes are walking through for this energy company and we totally do not get the client. And so I, as all bond, I was like, what the bullshit.

[00:19:06] And my sister is like, eh, I don't really care. I was like, how can you not care? Well, when she wasn't the owner of the company too, she was really much more about the process. I mean, she had fun making that campaign regardless of whether or not the client hired us.

[00:19:22] Paul Jarvis: So, yeah, and I mean, that's even what, like a, at the back of a Gita talks about how you're entitled to the labor, not the fruits of your labor.

[00:19:29] So it turning that into creative speak. It's like, if you don't like the process and it doesn't really matter what the outcome is because you didn't really like doing it in the first place. So yeah, I'm kind of, of two minds because I feel like I'm more for my own stuff. I'm more just like, let's just see how this goes.

[00:19:48] I like doing this stuff because with my clients, it's like, holy shit, they're paying me a lot of money to like track and metric eyes and figure out everything to make it do better. And so with my own stuff, I'm just like trying to LA let's just, let's just make some

[00:20:05] I do, but I don't do that much about it unless I feel like for me, I feel more like.

[00:20:11] If I'm aligned with the direction I'm going, then I don't care about the goal. Like, I don't care about setting goals if I'm like, if it's fulfilling me financially and otherwise, and it's working, then I'm just going to keep trying in that general direction and not really like set anything. Like when I wrote my first book, I was like, if I had said like, okay, my goal is to be a writer or to sell like a hundred copies of my book.

[00:20:36] I'd be like, that seems like work. Let's not do that. So I was just like, I'm not a writer, but I'm going to write a book anyways and really sit. And then the book did really well. But if I had gone into it with goals and like, okay, my goal is to be like a bestselling author or a published writer or something like that.

[00:20:54] I probably would have talked myself out of it.

[00:20:56] Kathleen Shannon: Do you think that's because you're afraid of

[00:20:59] Paul Jarvis: failure? I think I'm equally afraid of failure. I'm like, well, I'm not afraid of work, but I'm equally afraid of failure and success. So if something does really well, that scares me if something does really shitty, that also scares me.

[00:21:14] Kathleen Shannon: Tell us more about that.

[00:21:17] Paul Jarvis: Well, I don't know. It just feels like successes. Success is weird. Like doing really well. It seems weird. Like, I wouldn't know what to do about that.

[00:21:27] Kathleen Shannon: Well, okay. Creative class, your eCourse is doing. Would you say it's doing really well?

[00:21:33] Paul Jarvis: Yeah, it's done almost half of it's done almost a quarter million dollars in less than a year.

[00:21:38] So if we're talking numbers, it's done. Yeah. Almost two 50

[00:21:43] Kathleen Shannon: So creative class can potentially get you that million a year.

[00:21:46] Paul Jarvis: It could, but like, if that was my goal, then I probably wouldn't like the process as much, I guess is what I'm saying. And yeah.

[00:21:56] Kathleen Shannon: Have you ever seen the documentary in beauty as embarrassing? [00:22:00]

[00:22:01] Paul Jarvis: I am in. I am embarrassed about how beautiful I am. So maybe,

[00:22:06] Kathleen Shannon: yep. I was referring to your resting bitch face, Paul. I promise. I would describe to you, you don't have a resting bitch face. Like you're kind of like real smiling.

[00:22:18] Paul Jarvis: Okay. I totally do though. So when my wife and I, where

[00:22:21] Kathleen Shannon: should I start? It looks like

[00:22:26] Paul Jarvis: my wife and I were both before we were in the same band. We were in different bands. So we would both man, each other's or woman, each other's merch booths. Like while she was playing a show, I would sell her bands, merge and vice versa. When I was playing a show. And after a while, she was like, you can't just sit there looking like you're an asshole.

[00:22:42] Nobody's going to come and buy our CDs and like just sitting there. And she's like, you look like a Dick though. I was like, I guess, like I just said. Often my own world, I'm thinking like a gazillion thoughts, but like I have a, yeah, I have a resting bitch face. Maybe it's just in public. Like when I'm sitting in the sanctity of my fortress of solitude, maybe the resting bitch face doesn't come out as much.

[00:23:07] Kathleen Shannon: Mine is definitely while I'm driving. So it was like, I saw you driving and he looked so mad.

[00:23:12] Paul Jarvis: Nobody sees me driving. I live in the woods, I guess, deer see me driving.

[00:23:17] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. Was that ever a goal for you? Like your woods,

[00:23:22] like your house, your woods, like where you're living, the kind of lifestyle that you live?

[00:23:27] Paul Jarvis: No, because the net, well, it was after we lived in like downtown in a city and we realized that was 100% not for us. So our next step was okay. Let's move, one to the island and two to the middle of nowhere. So I don't even know, is that a goal? Because we realized we didn't like some things, so we sold our car.

[00:23:48] We didn't even sell our condo. We put our condo for sale and moved because we were that done with city living. We were just like, hope to God, this sells as soon as possible. It didn't actually, it took about eight months to sell, which was kind of scary. Cause we were paying rent and mortgage at the same time.

[00:24:03] But is that a goal? Because we didn't like something, so we just changed it. So it's just kind of, yeah. So

[00:24:12] Kathleen Shannon: after I went to the energy doctor and he was like focused on the what and not the how I was like, okay, I need, I need to like channel my pool with a pile of money. Like, what is it that I want? And so I was eating some Indian food with my husband and I was like, okay, here's what I want.

[00:24:28] Let me show you what I want. And I pull up my phone. Got Instagram going. And there are a few people that I follow that just for a living or I don't know, maybe they have trust funds. They're just out adventuring, a hundred percent of the time they're in national forests. They're out hanging out on mountains.

[00:24:48] They are rock climbing and their lives are beautiful. Like they're all photographers, professional photographers that adventure for a living. And I was like, oh, Hey, so this is what, this is my, what I can tell my husband was, became very overwhelmed with the how, like, oh, crazy. Like, what does this mean? I was like, listen, I'm not even going to buy a new couch.

[00:25:09] We kind of need one. Cause our cats have torn ours apart. It's like, I'm not even going to buy a new couch because in case we need to like pack up make this adventure Instagram a reality.

[00:25:21] Paul Jarvis: So anyway, people are really like that. I don't know. I love Instagram for that, but I feel like it also, like we only post pictures of shit

[00:25:29] we want other people to see. So I think those people who, and I follow a lot of the, probably the same people, but people who are like always having like massive epic adventures in nature, I feel like they're also sitting binge watching Netflix in their underwear, but they're just not posting that to Instagram.

[00:25:45] Right? Like I've tried, like I've tried to set up the shot and it's like, this doesn't work. I'm sitting in my underwear watching Instagram, watching a Netflix. I don't know. I think it's unrealistic a comparison there.

[00:25:58] Emily Thompson: Hey, maybe, but if that's your goal, Kathleen, if that is your what. Yeah, go for it.

[00:26:04] Absolutely go. However, I also want to see the underwear shots and watching Netflix.

[00:26:10] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, I'll post those.

[00:26:13] Emily Thompson: I know you will.

[00:26:16] Kathleen Shannon: Whenever I first got Instagram, I thought it was like hips Dematic or any of those other, like just photo filtering apps. And my very first photo is my husband just like in his underwear crotch shot.

[00:26:32] So then once I realized that all this stuff was going on to the internet, I texted him and I was like, so you can probably never run for politics

[00:26:41] Paul Jarvis: because famous on Instagram,

[00:26:46] Kathleen Shannon: this is before all that this was before any Insta fame. So anyway, I deleted it, but. Anyway, I don't know. Okay. So I also think that goal setting is a lot, like, well, actually going back to what you were saying, Paul, about enjoying the process, one of the things that I like to do whenever I'm goal setting or helping other creative set goals is, okay.

[00:27:10] So let's say your goal is to make a million dollars a year and then asking, okay, you're making, let's just pretend that as if you're already making a million dollars a year, how do you feel like, what is different? How do you feel? How do you behave? What are you doing with your million dollars? Because usually it turns out that you can do all of those things now without a million dollars.

[00:27:33] And so like maybe the feeling of million dollars, cultivates security, there's some other things that you can do to cultivate those feelings. It's not necessarily working

[00:27:42] Paul Jarvis: like what? Like spending less money. Yeah. There's that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I guess one of the biggest things for me was I was out surfing with one of my buddies.

[00:27:55] Who's a chartered accountant, which is funny, cause he's like a surf bum and he's like, dude, I'm like a month away from having enough for the year. And I'm like, tell me about, tell me about this enough. And he's like, well, I just kind of work until I have enough money to live off of and enough to put in a savings for retirement.

[00:28:13] And then I surf and rock climb for the rest of the year. I was like,

[00:28:16] Kathleen Shannon: so he has one of those Instagram accounts,

[00:28:19] Paul Jarvis: even on that. He's not even on the computer. Like he doesn't, I don't think he's on social media at all. He just doesn't care.

[00:28:25] Kathleen Shannon: So busy living a fabulous life. Can't even document it and share it.

[00:28:29] Paul Jarvis: But he's like, I just worked.

[00:28:31] So I have enough to cover my life. He doesn't spend very much. He lives like half the year in his car because he's surfing and rock climbing. And then half the year in a little condo, he asked and he's like, if I make like 60 grand a year, then in like four or five months, then I'm good for the rest of the year.

[00:28:48] And I was like, I kind, I like this enough because it's just like you were saying with the million dollars, like right now, there's nothing like, I don't have a very lavish life, but like I have enough to afford what I need. Like I drive a hatchback, I live in the woods where it's cheap. And like, if I had more money, I don't know, like my wife and I play that game.

[00:29:07] Like, well, what if we won the lottery? We don't play the lottery, but what if we won the lottery? Like, what would you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't really have anything like, I don't really have any needs and my wants are pretty much covered. Cause don't really want that much stuff. So yeah. I feel like my goals are fine because they don't really want more than I have or more than as, beyond like just a simple, like decent life.

[00:29:36] Emily Thompson: I like what Kathleen said a minute ago and like on that, about security and how that affects how you set goals, because I've definitely found like, as I've found more security in my business, like, I don't even track my like monthly goals near as obsessively as I used to. It used to, it was pretty legit, like daily knew exactly where we were for the [00:30:00] month.

[00:30:01] So security, like what would you do say, like, how does security played into how it is that you set goals?

[00:30:10] Kathleen Shannon: Well, I mean, so security has definitely been a big player in how I've tackled my goals. So I guess, I was just telling a client of mine this earlier today. So my secret is that I was able to quit my job,

[00:30:30] working in advertising because I'm married to a guy that if, if I didn't make any money, he would financially be able to fit the bill. Right. So that gave me a lot of security and, and then he also gave me a lot of emotional support too. So I always tell him, and I remember whenever I quit, he was like one day you're going to be making more than me.

[00:30:51] And he's a software engineer and I, you know, big deal. So like, or it seemed like a big deal, like, to make as much money as he did anyway. I was like, no, that's crazy. You're crazy. And he was like, no, mark my words. And so I thought it was really great that he had that much, faith in me. But, so I wouldn't have quit probably, or I don't know.

[00:31:15] It's hard to say, but I would have been really scared to quit my job and do my own thing if I had not had that security. But because I have that freedom, I was able to. Do what I want and enjoy the process. And then I think that there is something about loving what you do, where the money just kind of follows it.

[00:31:39] So that's what I was talking about. The documentary beauty is embarrassing. It's about this artist named Wayne White. And one of the things that he talks about is just doing what you love. Don't worry about the money because the money will follow. And I think that I really cultivated some trust and security in that if I do the things that I need to do, like if I write, and I wonder if you feel this way to Paul and Emily, like if I write this newsletter, if I just keep doing the things that I'm doing that I love doing, if I keep, designing this stuff, if I keep writing e-courses, if I keep putting out a podcast, I trust that everything else will follow specifically.

[00:32:16] I'm talking about the revenue, the revenue will follow. So. My security comes from, I guess, cultivating a sense of trust, not in finances necessarily, but that in doing the work things will get done. Yeah.

[00:32:29] Paul Jarvis: I think a lot of that comes down to the fact that our intentions are evident, even if we wish that they weren't.

[00:32:35] So when you're just about like making a shit ton of money in like bags with the dollar signs on it, then I think people, and more specifically our audiences would see that. Whereas for me, it's like I write every week because I like doing it and I share whatever the fuck I want. Like, and I try to be valuable to my audience, but I still I'm sharing things that I think other people will like, because I like it.

[00:33:01] And if I was just about like hard sells, like the news, the email that I sent out for the last pitch of my course, and a lot of it came from me talking to Kathleen about not doing evergreen discounts. So thank you for that. But the email that I sent out saying like, okay guys, I think this course is good enough that we don't need discounts.

[00:33:18] I'm going to cancel the. In a week. There's no hard sales pitch. Here's a picture of my rats. If you want it by the course. Cool. That email generated $25,000. Like there was no sales pitch in it. It was just like, this is if you want the course, it's great for this reason. If you don't want the course cool too.

[00:33:38] Like, it's, it's fine. I trust this course and I trust the content and here's a picture of my ride.

[00:33:43] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. But you also said the discount is shutting down. So, I mean, there was a little bit of a,

[00:33:50] but I feel like, and I feel like that kind of sums up your entire approach, Paul, where you're kind of. Here's what I'm doing.

[00:33:59] Take it or leave it. I think that you're really good about that in, in your writing and just demeanor and whole vibe.

[00:34:06] Paul Jarvis: Yeah.

[00:34:06] I wrote that email twice. Cause I wrote like an email based on like things I know about like sales pages and pitches and conversions and pain points and all of that. And I wrote it and I paid my copy editor to edit it and I read it again.

[00:34:20] I was just like, this is boring. Like, I don't care how this converts, so I'm going to rewrite it. And I just rewrote like the, the most honest sales pitch I could possibly write. That was more just me being honest in a sales pitch. And it said, yeah, like this discount expires in a week, but there's like, there's no bonus to doing it.

[00:34:39] Other than if you want it for a discount, you got to act now. And that was it. So I feel like, yeah, I feel like I would rather be aligned with what I feel is good than just like. Some number, but like, I feel like if I did have monetary goals, they would need to be there because they aligned with like the purpose that I have in life.

[00:35:01] And like the values that I hold, as opposed to just like my million dollars a year was just, I want money. And there was no, like, I don't even know why I want this money. I just want this money. It was, yeah. My wife was even like, well, what kind of car would you buy it? And like probably another Volkswagen golf.

[00:35:18] Like,

[00:35:19] Kathleen Shannon: Hey, that's what we have. How, tell me more about your Volkwagen Golf.

[00:35:24] Paul Jarvis: So we pulled it, we've pulled an Airstream with that golf easily across the country. The Airstream was a piece of shit, but the car is awesome. I had last week I had 1,851 pounds of Cedar mulch in the back of it. Like this car is just a workhorse and I love it.

[00:35:43] Kathleen Shannon: This fits into my goals now of living that venture life.

[00:35:47] Now I can get my Airstream and I know that our, so we have a GTI and it's 14 years old and I started driving it because I liked, I liked driving it, it's actually my husband's car. But then last year I was like, I want a mini Cooper. That's that was my goal is total vanity purchase. But I love that car.

[00:36:08] Paul Jarvis: What, I don't think there's anything wrong with that either. Like, I feel like if you've worked hard enough to get the things that you want, instead of just the things that you need, life's too fucking short. Like you might as well, you might as well do that. I don't know.

[00:36:25] Kathleen Shannon: So I, I like things I like, you know, being able to buy art or a car or, nothing super fancy though, but I found that like, as I get the things I want.

[00:36:39] I mean, this is such, I shouldn't even follow this thought, but I have found that what I'm really craving is more of like a philosophy of life or I'm craving that, like the way that you're talking Paul of like, I just enjoy the process. I'm like, holy shit. I wish I enjoyed the process a little bit. Not that I don't enjoy the process.

[00:36:58] I do. I just kind of get, caught up in it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:03] Paul Jarvis: But you can enjoy the process without enjoy the trappings of it. Right? Like you can enjoy working with clients, but still get a shitty client that you want to kill yourself over or kill them over. But still like, you still like working for other people.

[00:37:15] Like I still like being valuable to other businesses, but I still sometimes get a client that is the worst fit in the entire world. So, but yeah, I like what you said about the, like living more to a philosophy than. Like the actual stuff. Cause I'm like, I'm the same. I have like all the furniture we bought for a new house.

[00:37:35] Cause we just had crap furniture before. Cause we moved around a lot. So our philosophy for this house was we want to buy stuff. We don't need to replace. And that was it that like, we don't want to have to replace stuff. So we have a solid wood dining room table. That's just a piece of Sequoia and it's one single slab.

[00:37:52] It's gorgeous.

[00:37:54] Kathleen Shannon: That's like my dream table. Yeah,

[00:37:56] Paul Jarvis: you should look it up on Instagram. It's on my Instagram, [00:38:00]

[00:38:00] Kathleen Shannon: Instagram, but like

[00:38:03] Paul Jarvis: that tables outlive us. Like that table is easily. Same with the coffee table. Same with the chairs that we bought. Same with everything other than the couch. Cause upholstery just doesn't last forever, but we could get it reupholstered.

[00:38:14] So that was really like, we ended up spending quite a bit of money on stuff, but I wanted to do that. Cause I don't want to, like, my goal is to not buy more furniture other than like stuff that has cloth.

[00:38:27] Emily Thompson: Yeah, I think for me, whenever it comes to like what I'm setting goals for and like, Kathleen, you're all about feelings.

[00:38:37] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. I just want to feel good.

[00:38:38] Emily Thompson: Oh, you're all about process for me, it's like impact, like, and who are, how many people can I help? And I know both of you are probably like somewhere in this

[00:38:49] Kathleen Shannon: as well, Emily, like now you're making us look like hedonistic assholes, like be happy and enjoy the process. And you're like, I just want to help, but like [00:39:00]

[00:39:01] Emily Thompson: world peace.

[00:39:02] No. Well, no. So, okay. You think about my crazy money goals then, like I'm just redeeming myself here. How about that? So no, for me, it's, it's about monetizing impact in a way or about, about metric icing, impact and like what it is that I do for other people. So whether it's the client work that I do.

[00:39:26] Or if it's a digital product that we put out or the podcast or whatever it is like for me each year, I want to make more and more impact until I get to a place where I'm like all impacted out. But like, along the way, like bettering my life so that I'm in a better place to make more of an impact, because I don't know whenever, like living on the road was cheap, super, super cheap, but because of it, I didn't ever had wifi.

[00:39:54] Like, I was never able to like make the digital impact on like my community that I could like living in those conditions. So if I need to, you know, move to Chattanooga where I have gig internet and buy a house so that I have a studio that I never have to move again so that I can make the impact that I want to make.

[00:40:12] And it's obviously helping people. Then high five and I will measure it and money because that's something that I can measure along the way. Just to see if I'm I'm making it or not. And money doesn't even have to be the only metric. Like we've talked a lot about money goals, but, there are other goals that, that we have to, you know, for the podcast we set goals for like downloads and how many, how many subscribers we had, which equates to impact like how many people are we impacting to listen to, or that are listening to our content.

[00:40:47] And those are just metrics for doing it. I think that, I think all three of us probably it rolls into like, what is it that we can do, do share our bit of genius to make other people's lives and businesses better.

[00:41:02] Paul Jarvis: You can drop the mic and walk away now.

[00:41:07] Kathleen Shannon: But, you know, I really do think that that's a good point because a lot of the creatives that we work with and talk to are so freaked out about asking for money or, building a business, doing what they love.

[00:41:21] And I think it's just a good reminder that you're doing this because it probably makes a good impact on your clients. So, yeah, I mean, I think that's a great point.

[00:41:34] Emily Thompson: And I think it's one for like our entire crowd. I was reading something my God, why do I do that? But it was talking about, entrepreneurship and it is especially social entrepreneurship and how like really, we are all social entrepreneurs, like we're talking to the greed of cloud, but I think by default we're also social entrepreneurs and that we're all here to make some sort of difference.

[00:42:00] [00:42:00] All three of us are here to help people build better businesses. And I was talking to a client this morning who, who wants to help her clients get shit done. Like she wants to work with creative entrepreneurs to help them launch their digital products, or, you know, interior designers. You want people to feel at home in their home.

[00:42:19] Like we are here to do something better for other people. And if given the chance we do better things for the world. I mean, think about, you know, Marie Forleo builds schools in Africa and like, we use our impact to even expand, to make bigger impact. And I think setting goals like that, where, where we bring in those social, social, entrepreneurial qualities into what we do, and like, I don't know, affect change elsewhere.

[00:42:50] Like I'll make goals like that all day long. Like I want to build schools in Africa. Or a fund women and south America or whatever it may be. [00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Paul Jarvis: So I get a question again then. So what would you, how, what would you do and how would you feel if you didn't reach like a goal that you set and has that ever, has it ever happened?

[00:43:12] Actually?

[00:43:13] Emily Thompson: Oh yes. Two years ago I had a revenue goal and I missed it by $60 for the year.

[00:43:23] Paul Jarvis: Did you beat yourself up over that?

[00:43:24] Emily Thompson: I was so, and obviously, like that's not a huge chunk, like I'm more or less made it, but yes, I definitely don't make goals and I don't think about it. I mean, I do think about it. I don't dwell on it.

[00:43:38] I didn't make them for whatever reason.

[00:43:42] Paul Jarvis: So why don't you dwell on it? Because I'm asking this because I know a gazillion people who do dwell on, if they don't meet a specific goal, that's like their life from their own name. So why don't you?

[00:43:54] Emily Thompson: If I dwell, then I'm wasting energy. That could be used to make the next goal.

[00:44:00] Paul Jarvis: You're not acting. Yeah. Thinking,

[00:44:03] Kathleen Shannon: you know, I think I never dwell on my failures because, I guess maybe I don't set timelines to my goals. So a lot of times, okay. So for example, and Emily and I have talked about this before we tried hosting a workshop three or four years ago,

[00:44:23] Emily Thompson: about four years ago,

[00:44:24] Kathleen Shannon: no one signed up one person signed up.

[00:44:26] We gave her a refund, right? So now fast forward, four years later, and we're having a Being Boss vacation in New Orleans that has sold out. So we've reached our goal. It just didn't happen on the timeline that we thought it was going to happen on. That's kind of like what my energy doctor was telling me.

[00:44:48] It comes to focusing on the what, and not the, how our what was having a cool creative workshop. And now it's happening. It's just not happening on the timeline that we thought it would happen on. [00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Emily Thompson: I, I actually sent out a newsletter about this yesterday. And it, I said, you know, set goals and you may not get it when you want to, because timelines are the hardest thing to pin down.

[00:45:13] Like you never know

[00:45:14] Kathleen Shannon: when, what is time?

[00:45:17] Emily Thompson: You need to stop going to the energy Dr. Kathleen.

[00:45:21] Paul Jarvis: What was your goal for the energy doctor? Like what was the goal?

[00:45:25] Kathleen Shannon: Okay, so two things, two things. One I wanted to sleep better. And then two, I wanted to just, feel like a little more enthusiastic about life in general. So I thought that, and it really more than anything, it's just kind of paying someone to hold me accountable, like, okay, so now I'm getting this energy doctor and this is a whole article in the works of just that exchange of money and energy is holding me accountable to not being in a shit mood.

[00:45:56] So, but I don't know, like there might be some, I just kind of wanted to try it out. And, there I mean, it was way left field you guys. Like, there was some like muscle testing, but like asking my spirit and my astral energy, like what I needed. And then, so, and then I had to take like 10 drops of like different kinds of, I don't know, potions.

[00:46:21] Paul Jarvis: Cause it like call me off at the year. Was it.

[00:46:25] Kathleen Shannon: Yes. But like he said, minerals and gemstones like crushed up into the drops. And so I was doing like, I took 10 under my tongue and then on top of my tongue, but like he had asked my spirit, which drops I needed, I didn't even comprehend what he was saying. I was like, I hope my spirit knows what he's talking about.

[00:46:45] Anyway. So then I took the drops and then I was all paranoid. Like what if, what if he's roofing me right now? Or like, what if, and he was like, you, maybe you may get sick as an energy. Like if, if the energy is dispersed out of you or whatever. And, then I was like, what if he's giving me that drug that makes you throw up?

[00:47:04] Like I started getting really paranoid. And then he, so I took the drops and then he did another reading and he was like, you were 34% better.

[00:47:16] do this two more times to be a hundred percent done.

[00:47:22] Paul Jarvis: You find this energy doctor. I'm curious.

[00:47:25] Kathleen Shannon: I know. I know. It's kind of interesting. So, well,

[00:47:28] Paul Jarvis: okay, so I've started recording there and all that.

[00:47:33] Kathleen Shannon: So I've been working with one of my executive coaches who I want to have on the show. Emily, actually, then I was telling him just about my past couple of years and specifically the not sleeping thing, which I'm sure our listeners are so sick of hearing about how I didn't sleep for a year, but he was like, this may have actually created some like trauma, like some energy trauma.

[00:47:54] And so you might go to an energy doctor and get that cleared up. I'm using the word energy doctor. No one else is saying this except me. It's like one step below witch doctor. So

[00:48:05] Paul Jarvis: I am in the woods or in the, by,

[00:48:09] Kathleen Shannon: you know, but that would have been like amazing. I would have, like, that would have been Instagramable.

[00:48:14] His office was absolutely not Instagramable. So anyway, a couple of different people. So when my friend referenced this guy, then at a Being Boss meetup, one of our listeners referenced this guy and I was like, this guy keeps coming up. So maybe it's meant to be,

[00:48:34] Paul Jarvis: he's defined his audience and it's just really sticking to that niche and doing a good job.

[00:48:38] Like the marketing brain in me is like this, guy's doing good stuff.

[00:48:44] Kathleen Shannon: I know. Right. And so then it's funny because as I was leaving the energy doctor like this, really bad-ass yoga teacher that I know walked in and I was like, do, are we allowed to make eye contact and like, say, Hey, yeah, I need some energy cleared up too.

[00:49:00] You know what I mean? It was kind of awkward. I've never experienced that, but I was, I kind of thought, man, he does have a target audience. Like I probably know everyone, but then I did think about it from like a marketing and brand standpoint. I was like, maybe he needs some more personal branding. He needs like an office overhaul.

[00:49:16] There's like a disconnect between, I don't know, but it actually was actually kind of reassuring that going to an energy doctor, like it felt much more clinical than we woo-hoo in a lot of ways. So that was kind of reassuring.

[00:49:30] Emily Thompson: I think the shack would have been cooler.

[00:49:32] Paul Jarvis: Yeah, me too.

[00:49:32] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, I agree. All right.

[00:49:35] So, Paul, this is getting way off of goal setting. Are you woo. Are you like, have you seen an energy doctor?

[00:49:42] Paul Jarvis: No, I haven't. I read the Bible. God, I can never say it. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, that's the weird thing about me. Like I'm sitting, like I have like necklaces of like squished, rose pedals and a Rudraksha beads and stuff like that.

[00:49:59] Like, I have some of the stuff, but I'm pretty much an atheist and we're just sacks of meat that stopped being animated when we die. But still like, I super downer. Holy shit. I still, I don't know. I still kind of like explore that stuff, but I don't necessarily, I don't know. I feel like I'll make a decision on all of that spirit and we will do stuff when I die.

[00:50:25] Cause then if it, if it's there, there'll be like, okay, cool. If it's not, there'll be like, eh, whatever. I didn't think that any of that is

[00:50:31] Kathleen Shannon: it. So it, see my husband, I have this conversation all the time. Cause he is a hundred percent. Like I don't even think he believes in love, like he's that like everything is science and can be explained.

[00:50:43] We just can't explain it, but I think that for me, spirituality, it has not a lot to do with when we die or where we go whenever we die for me, it's how we live our life here and now.

[00:50:55] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I have a decent moral code, like basically not being addicted people. And I feel like I've, I feel like I've got that covered where some people, if they, if they need that, if they need that external guidance.

[00:51:08] Awesome, good, good for them that they're finding something to not be dicks. Cause really that's what life is all about.

[00:51:16] Kathleen Shannon: I agree with that. Paul Jarvis has given us the secret to life, which is a, not being a dick.

[00:51:24] Emily Thompson: I agree with that. Can we get shirts? Just don't be a Dick.

[00:51:29] Kathleen Shannon: We are making some Being Boss shirts.

[00:51:32] Emily Thompson: Oh, that's in the works. They're going to be rad.

[00:51:36] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. So sorry. Bringing this back around to goal setting. I wrote down a couple of things. I said my favorite way to set goals is to make a bucket list. Like, I think that that's probably what it comes down to for me is a bucket list. But then also goal setting is a lot like to doing in general.

[00:51:55] And so I've got short-term goals and those are just like my daily, here's what I need to do. And then there's long-term goals, which are probably more like, here's what I want to do before I die.

[00:52:05] Paul Jarvis: I can't think of anything that would go on my bucket list.

[00:52:09] Emily Thompson: You can't, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard.

[00:52:12] Paul Jarvis: I've done lots of cool stuff. I feel like I'm going to do lots of cool stuff. I just don't know what it is. And I feel like to me goals would be limiting in a way that before I started writing and like developing my brand, I like if you'd asked me five years ago, Hey, Paul, would you be, or are you going to be a writer to be like, Like, I didn't even know that being a writer could be a thing or being a course person or being somebody that has an audience could be a thing for me.

[00:52:39] So I didn't even know that those were goals that I could set for myself. So I just feel like I'm just going to kind of go with the flow. I'm like Mr. Easygoing, right?

[00:52:47] Emily Thompson: You are like, you were the guy who just enjoys the ride. Like you see, you want to be surprised when you get there and you're going to love it.

[00:52:56] Kathleen Shannon: So that's actually interesting that you say that Emily. Cause sometimes I think like I wish I could just enjoy my cart to someone else's horse and just go along for the ride. But like, Paul, I don't see you as someone at all that's just hitching your cart to something and going along for the right. Like you're definitely driving your own bus.

[00:53:14] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. So, and I think that's where a lot of times that it turns to shit because I am definitely just kind of go with the flow, but I'm 100% invested in action and doing stuff. So I'm doing stuff to keep in line with the direction I want to go because I want to keep going in that direction. So, and I find a lot of people who are just go, I think that's what separates me from some of the hippies is I'm definitely kind of go with the flow, which kind of resonates with being a hippie, but I'm 100% gonna sit my ass down and do a whole lot of work.

[00:53:50] And some hippies I know from experience are not like that. They just want to go with the flow and then just like, I don't need to do anything because I'm going with the flow. It's like, I've got a paddle and I'm going to fucking steer this boat a little bit in this current.

[00:54:06] Emily Thompson: Good. I mean, I think that's awesome.

[00:54:08] It's like, it's a mindset I almost wish I could adapt, adapt, adopt, and. For who I am, because like I find myself quite often, not enjoying the ride, like I'm in the middle of it and I'm just done. And I just want to go to bed and lay there and like maybe cry a little bit and definitely watch Netflix. Like, that's what I want to do.

[00:54:29] And then I get pissed at myself because are you serious? Like I should be enjoying the ride right now. Like I think that, that I'm a little envious of that super like chill go with the flow, but like super high five to you for also like being someone who's going to do the work, because it is a dangerous place to go with the flow and not do shit.

[00:54:51] Paul Jarvis: Yeah.

[00:54:51] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, but like, so this is my thing. So whenever the energy doctor was like, you need to focus on the what and not the, how I was like, Hmm. I don't think you understand, I don't think you get it, but I feel like Paul gets it. Yeah. I feel like you're not, you know, white knuckling, the paddle, like, you're just kind of, but

[00:55:10] Paul Jarvis: that doesn't mean I don't get like super stressed out or bummed out about stuff, but I find that it's so much work to not be reactionary, to not be reactionary, like to not just react to everything.

[00:55:23] And I feel like that's the purpose of things like meditation or doing yoga, or that is to kind of find that calm in yourself. So then if there's, if life is just shitting on your face, you're not just going crazy about it. You can react accordingly and like take some time and think about it and then react.

[00:55:42] Because I find that everybody and myself included it's, it's easy to be reactionary. It's easy to just react to everything and then you're not in control at all. Whereas if you can kind of breathe for a second and then maybe react, maybe not react then it, it, but that's hard. Like it's so much work. It shouldn't be hard to, to not react to everything, but it totally, totally is.

[00:56:07] Kathleen Shannon: So this is going to seem kind of off topic, but coming back around to the bucket lists and how that kind of limits you. I think that if you do make something like a bucket list and I love making a list of just a hundred things that I want to do or experience, I like to also revisit it every year. So at one point on my bucket list, I think I have run a marathon and I am so uninterested in running.

[00:56:30] Like I can die without running a marathon and be perfectly happy. So I crossed it off and I replaced it with something else. So I, I talked a little bit last time on the podcast about this book that I'm reading by Marie condo, which is the life-changing art of tidying.

[00:56:49] Emily Thompson: She got it wrong. Last time. It's been life changing magic of tidying up.

[00:56:55] Kathleen Shannon: Thanks, Emily.

[00:56:57] So in this book, so I read books on my Kindle, which means that I'm not really seeing the title very often, which means I don't know what I'm reading, but I'm anyway, in her book. Have you read it, Paul? All right. So the gist of it is to touch every single thing that you own and ask, does it give you joy or should I discard it?

[00:57:18] And then one of the ways that she frames up discarding is by asking, has this already served its purpose and is it serving me now? And so for me, goal setting, I mean, I'm just Marie Kondo knowing everything. So secret, I'm actually shaving my head on Saturday, like Marie Condo my hair, like, you know, it's served its purpose, but I don't need it anymore.

[00:57:45] So that's one of the things is like, what do I need? What do I not need? And whenever it comes to goal setting, if I don't need to run a marathon anymore, it's going off my list and I will not hold myself to that standard if it doesn't make sense.

[00:57:58] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. I think we need to quit. And I'm a big fan of relentlessly questioning things that we believe in or that we feel we need, because I'm still like, I guess a minimalist, because I have like four pieces of furniture because I went through everything.

[00:58:12] It also helps them, my wife and I have moved a lot until now. So it's really hard to move to an island with a shit ton of stuff. So it's like, okay, let's, let's pair it down. And then when you move like 12 times and 10 years, it's like, you pair down a lot. So I feel like that's the point of minimalism, at least for me, it's not getting rid of stuff is just finding what serves me and everything else doesn't matter.

[00:58:35] Emily Thompson: Amen.

[00:58:37] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. So do you apply that though? Do you apply that philosophy to your business.

[00:58:42] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. Well, yes and no. So like right now, I know I should be doing less client work because it's not really serving me, but I still do because it's like a security blanket, but at least now I'm super picky and I'm only working with people that are really, really, really want to work with.

[00:58:59] [00:59:00] But yeah, I definitely like I've killed things that have made me like decent amounts of money. Like I've just stopped selling them because like for one WordPress themes, I hate supporting WordPress themes. Don't want to do that. So they were selling well, but it's like, I, if my goal was just money there, I would still be doing that.

[00:59:16] But it was, I hate doing email support. So I just had to, I had to cut it out.

[00:59:23] Kathleen Shannon: So actually I went in to ask about your surfing friend, who is, you said he's an accountant. All right. So how does he just work for like four months out of the year? And then, so this is my fear. Like whenever it comes to that idea, oh, tax season, see, like, so I would, I would love to create that kind of model somehow.

[00:59:44] And Emily, you know, you probably experienced this too on your recent road trip of like, okay, so this is my goal to take off more often or kind of do it. Stefan Sagmeister did, he did an amazing, I saw I'm talking real life at Alt summit. And, but he does it as Ted talk on how he goes on a sabbatical every seven years.

[01:00:04] So instead of waiting to the end of his life for retirement, he's basically interjecting a little bit of these periods of retirement into his life every seven years. So I think it's fascinating, but like my biggest fear would just be that the momentum of my business would stop.

[01:00:24] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. And I get scared with that too.

[01:00:26] Like right now I'm not taking as much time off, but for awhile I was doing like three months off a year. Now when I take time off, it's like, I'm taking time off from client work to work on products. And now that's like six months of the year that I, that I do that, but it's not really, it's not time off cause I'm still working.

[01:00:42] So I shouldn't really call it time off. But I used to take like three months off and like go on a road trip, but not really anymore.

[01:00:50] Kathleen Shannon: Why not?

[01:00:51] Paul Jarvis: Cause I just feel the same. I feel like there's so much momentum and so much opportunity. Right now [01:01:00] for me that if I stop, then I'm going to be like, just an irrelevant old man who doesn't have an audience or products that people buy.

[01:01:10] Emily Thompson: So someone's got some FOMO.

[01:01:12] Kathleen Shannon: Though I was about to say, I'm so glad that you have like a few of these things. Like you're not totally Zen master. Yeah. That's like my biggest frustration when people are like, well, you should, you should slow down and focus on what matters, which I feel like whenever people say that to me, they're talking about staying home with my baby or sleeping while he's at daycare instead of working.

[01:01:36] But for me, what matters is my work along with my family. And that's what I'm fortunate that my work matters.

[01:01:43] Paul Jarvis: And I like my work. Like I'm not doing something that I don't like to do. I'm doing something that I love to do. So it it's definitely work. Like I can in my brain define like work as not super happy, fun time, like sitting on the couch, eating coconut, ice cream.[01:02:00]

[01:02:00] I could, I could probably do that more than work, but I still love the work. I still love the impact that it makes and that, and that sort of thing. All right.

[01:02:09] Kathleen Shannon: So can we end this episode, all by sharing a goal that we have, or is that, is that a dumb?

[01:02:15] Emily Thompson: No, that's not dumb.

[01:02:18] Kathleen Shannon: Emily, what's, what's your goal right now?

[01:02:21] Emily Thompson: My goal at the moment I want to take December off, that's a goal.

[01:02:28] Paul Jarvis: I do that partially. I take, I take from black Friday to January off from sending newsletters and for being on social and from doing stuff because nobody's paying attention then anyway. So I'm just like, whatever, just go do what you need to do.

[01:02:42] And I'll just like do stuff, but I like that goal. Yeah.

[01:02:46] Emily Thompson: Good. That's a push. I need no newsletters.

[01:02:50] Paul Jarvis: Yeah. It, how about you, Kathleen?

[01:02:52] Kathleen Shannon: I think that a goal that I have right now is actually to start writing more. I took a big hiatus from my personal blog, and I have discovered through that, that my blog served as a tool, not just for like capturing and sharing my life in the moment or processing it, but it also helped me shape what I want and what I want to be.

[01:03:17] So for me writing, there's a lot of stuff I'm, I'm actually uncomfortable sharing anymore in that space. Like I used to. So, period posts. I mean, I'll, I'll write about my periods.

[01:03:32] It's more about like, probably, I don't know, I'm just not as interested in figuring some things out in front of an audience anymore, as I used to be specifically probably being a mom, but, and, and also like building a business, for example, I used to write about that in a personal space a whole lot more, but I know, I, I'm not saying I have it all figured out, but I haven't figured out enough that I don't need to explore it anyway.

[01:04:00] So all this to say, I would like to start writing more, like at least every other day, on the experiences that I'm having. So like, for example, writing about the energy doctor, I did that the other day. I didn't hit publish on it, but I wrote about it and, So I, I just that's, my goal is to start writing again more often.

[01:04:22] But then maybe more long-term is to make my Instagram feed look like that of a photographer, adventure.

[01:04:32] Emily Thompson: It sounds like great goal. I want you to write more, I'm excited to read what you write.

[01:04:38] Kathleen Shannon: I'll link you guys to my Evernote files. You'd be like, what did Kathleen write in her diary?

[01:04:46] Emily Thompson: That's access. I don't think I need,

[01:04:51] what about you, Paul? What's your goal?

[01:04:54] Paul Jarvis: Oh, my short-term goal is to not do, any calls next week. Like I just keep, I feel like, because there's so much opportunity I've gotten bad at. I'm really good at saying no to clients and projects in that, but I haven't got as good as doing that with like my personal brand and products in that.

[01:05:14] So I've been doing too many things. So next week I just want to take a week off. Like, I just want to take a week where I need to do, I need to get back to do more writing and doing more like creating. I feel like it's difficult when you start to develop a following for being a creator, because then you're getting pulled in directions that aren't creating anymore.

[01:05:36] And I feel like I just need to reconnect with that. And long-term I think I just need to yeah. Just work on being like reactive to everything and just, yeah, just try getting out of the, getting out of the FOMO. Yeah.

[01:05:53] Emily Thompson: Oh yeah. That's hard, but good. Good job guys.

[01:05:59] Paul Jarvis: Actually, the last thing I want to say it.

[01:06:01] Cause when you were talking with Emily, when you were talking about how, the picture of the like sitting by the pool, when, when David wanted to grow up and what I want it to be when I grew up was a dinosaur. That was my goal.

[01:06:14] Kathleen Shannon: I love that my nephew wants to be a dinosaur whenever he grows up right now.

[01:06:18] Paul Jarvis: I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up.

[01:06:20] To be honest.

[01:06:21] Emily Thompson: Yeah, me neither. It's it's fine.

[01:06:24] Kathleen Shannon: I'm grown up. And I like it. I like that my job is sitting here talking to you guys on the podcast.

[01:06:31] Emily Thompson: Amen to that.

[01:06:32] Paul Jarvis: We're not bad.

[01:06:36] Emily Thompson: All right, Paul, thank you for joining us. What are you up to these days? Where can they find you?

[01:06:42] Paul Jarvis: I'm writing for my newsletter, the Sunday dispatches, which luckily goes out every Sunday. pjrvs.com. And teach in my creative friends and the creative class, creativeclass.io.

[01:06:57] Emily Thompson: Which is rocking it out by the way I checked on it every now and then the dates look fantastic.

[01:07:03] Paul Jarvis: Thank you.

[01:07:04] Kathleen Shannon: And I also want to mention that, Paul has a podcast called Invisible Office Hours. You can listen to the archives, but in new season we'll be coming up and we're also having Jason, your cohost on Being Boss soon. So for our bosses, I would love to hear what their goals are maybe in our Facebook group.

[01:07:25] Just holler at us and let us know different ways that you're setting goals. And we'll see you next week.

[01:07:33] Emily Thompson: Hey bosses, I'm going to take a second to interrupt this episode to tell you that if you're liking Being Boss and you're ready to level up your game, we've got something just for you. Check out the Being Boss bundle it's Kathleen's DIY coaching for creatives and my get your shit together.

[01:07:50] Series bundled together at one low price. Just for you bosses, you can find that at lovebeingboss.com/bundle. [01:08:00]

[01:08:00] Kathleen Shannon: If you like Being Boss, be sure to sign up for our newsletter at lovebeingboss.com, where you'll get episode worksheets, secret content and other goodies delivered straight to your inbox every week.

[01:08:13] Again, that's lovebeingboss.com. Do the work, be boss and we'll see you next week.

[01:08:41] Wait, and then Emily was saying that. Where we say whenever, when I don't understand what that means, like I see people say that, but

[01:08:50] Emily Thompson: you actually just did it whenever you were doing the FreshBooks ad and then made me think about it. But someone pointed out that we both say whenever. And when I guess we mean to say when, so.[01:09:00]

[01:09:00] Instead of when we do something, it's whenever we do something and someone pointed out and there's like a whole thread of people talking about how they notice that. And like, they're trying to figure out if it's like a slang thing or just because of where we're from.

[01:09:13] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, I've always been proud of never saying like fixing to do this.

[01:09:21] Cause you're like truly Southern,

[01:09:23] Emily Thompson: but yeah. So a lot of people are talking about how we say whenever, whenever we want.

[01:09:28] Kathleen Shannon: I've seen people talking about that, but I didn't even know what they were. I know it wasn't even like wrap my mind around what they were talking about.

[01:09:36] Paul Jarvis: I didn't know. This was the thing to be honest.

[01:09:38] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah.

[01:09:38] Emily Thompson: Well, there's a whole thread about it. So whenever you get a chance, you can go check that out.

[01:09:45] Paul Jarvis: To me, that's doesn't sound wrong though.

[01:09:48] Emily Thompson: I don't think it's. I hope it's not a wrong thing. It wouldn't surprise me if I'm speaking wrong,

[01:09:55] Paul Jarvis: but like seriously, this podcast about grammar. Okay.

[01:09:59] Emily Thompson: Never, it will never be about grammar.

[01:10:03] Kathleen Shannon: Thank God.