Episode 17

Sell Your Creative Work with Kendrick Shope

April 28, 2015

Kendrick Shope is a sales boss who works with creative entrepreneurs to give them the tools, knowledge, and support they need to up-level their sales abilities so that they can sell more, make more money, and do more of what they love. Today we’re talking about how to sell your product or service as a creative entrepreneur.

Learn More about the Topics Discussed in this Episode
This Episode Brought to You By:
"We sell every day, but it becomes personal when it's something we've created and we get afraid."
- Kendrick Shope

Discussed in this Episode

  • Breaking it down: what does it mean to sell something to someone and why it's not as icky/sleazy/slimy/pushy as you think.
  • Finding confidence in your own product in order to sell it to your customers.
  • Adding actual engagement to your sales process and how it influences the way your customers think about your product.
  • Struggles creatives have with selling their product or service and what they can do to change.
  • Product-based selling vs. service-based selling
  • How website copy influences sales

More from Kendrick Shope

More from Kathleen

Braid Creative

More from Emily

Almanac Supply Co.


Kathleen Shannon 0:04
Get your business together, get yourself into what you do, and see it through.

Emily Thompson 0:10
Because being boss is hard, winning work and life is messy. Making your dream job of your own

Unknown Speaker 0:16
isn't easy.

Kathleen Shannon 0:18
But getting paid for it, becoming known for it. And finding purpose in it is so doable.

Unknown Speaker 0:24
If you do the work,

Kathleen Shannon 0:27
being boss, a podcast for creative entrepreneurs from Emily Thompson and Kathleen Shannon. Welcome to episode number 17 with our special guest, Kendrick shope, who is actually Emily sales coach. This episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting.

Kendrick Shope 0:46
I thank you for having me. Thanks for joining us. I'm thrilled to be here thrilled

Kathleen Shannon 0:53
Emily, tell us about tell us who Kendrick is.

Emily Thompson 0:56
No, I think I let her tell us No, I will tell so it Kendrick Kendrick is a cell's boss, who works with creative entrepreneurs to give them tools, knowledge and support that they need to uplevel their sales abilities. So they can sell more, make more money and do more of what they love. I first found Kendrick over a year ago, at which point I signed up for herself School, which is a group coaching program. And it gave me so much that I needed and I was able to turn my usual one off website projects into really dreamy engagements where I would get to work with clients long term. And the trick was for me up leveling, what I was asking in pricing, and Kendrick helped me turn my usual $8,000 projects into an ability to competently sell multiple $24,000 projects. So she really assisted me in helping helping me wrap my head around how to package my products, but also sell them in a way that would support me, which was a really nice thing to do. So I

Kathleen Shannon 2:04
can I jump in and say I remember Emily when he went from that big leap and you were like, I'm gonna sell indie boom for $24,000. And I was like, wait, because you just seem so confident. And now I know like Kendrick was behind you saying like, yes, woman you are worth 24,000 Yeah,

Emily Thompson 2:26
exactly. It was huge, absolutely huge for me. So So I went through sales goal and indie boom came out of sales school. And then I decided to work with Kendrick, one on one. And she has been instrumental in helping me set up my sales process. So that I can seriously streamline my client onboarding, so that I'm working smarter, not harder to sell to the dreamy clients that I'm already attracting. So whenever Kathleen and I started building our list of people that we wanted to interview for the podcast, Kendrick, you are one of the first names that went on that list because I know you have so much knowledge that would really, really be great for our listeners, because lots of people have been asking about cells and, and pricing and getting their stuff out there. Because they have really great products and services. They just don't know what to do with them after they have them. So yeah, I want to talk to you a little bit about some of that stuff today. But first, I want to hear about your entrepreneurial journey. So how did you get to where you are now?

Kendrick Shope 3:30
It's such a funny question. I mean, seriously, like it sounds so like, entrepreneurial rural journey and you know, it sounds like oh, yeah, it was always planned right from the get go. But it wasn't that before do that have to say best introduction ever. Oh, like you should always have a client introduce you because I'm like tearing up over here thinking. I remember when he did that is so awesome. So thank you for all those wonderful things that you said very welcome. So my journey, my journey is probably not unlike everybody else is listening watching. I sort of stumbled into this. I graduated from the University of Tennessee in Knoxville with a psychology degree. And it was kind of like Whoa, whoa, whoa, now what? And so I got I started working for Fortune 500 company selling lumber. And your audience probably doesn't know me but if you can just picture like extremely Southern Valentino she's walking around dirty filthy lumberyards. Then you've got an idea. Yeah, talking about nail is that

Kathleen Shannon 4:35
like, like Erin Brockovich

Kendrick Shope 4:37
nails plywood I mean, yeah. And then I transit It was great though I learned so much but then eventually I transitioned into pharmaceutical selling and worked for a fortune 500 companies and so I I sold in a different way. And I didn't know that but one of my managers said to me, if I could bottle what you have intrinsically, I would be a millionaire. And I thought Forget that I've no clue what you're talking about, but I'm gonna figure it out and I'm gonna bottle like, I don't know what you're talking about. But we're I'm gonna start start paying attention. And that was kind of a running joke. But really the truth about how I got here is one night, several years later, I was rocking our two year old daughter to sleep. And the magic words in our house are believe. And I tell her she can be anything she wants to be when she grows up. All she has to do is believe and of course, she can't understand me too. But like a ton of bricks, I realized one day she is going to be able to understand this. And one day she's gonna say, you know what I call bs on that Mommy, because Bs and mommy in the site. You didn't do it, you're working, you know, a job. That's okay. That you're really good at making a decent amount of money. But where's your dream? And so literally, I mean, it was this dramatic. I put Pollyanna, that's when I'm in our crib, go bursting into our bedroom. We had double doors, we were in Chicago, and I said to my husband, I am living a lie. And he did not flinch. Like that's how I used to my drama. He was, he's like, I was like, No, seriously, I am, I'm living a lie. I tell Holly, Anna, she can be anything she wants to be. And one day she's gonna wake up and say, You know what, that's not true. And so I just went on this mission to figure it out. And so there's lots and lots and lots of live coaching and work and working with all the best business coaches on the planet. Authentic selling was created. That's the very long answer. But that's the truth. No, I

Emily Thompson 6:36
love that so many of us fall into it. And that's what's this. What's so funny. A lot of our listeners are like, you know, how do we get started? How do we do it? How do we make the jump? And like, it really, usually just is moments like that, where you decide to like, whatever it is that you have been doing? You're not doing anymore? You're gonna do something different. Yeah. So I love that you had a moment, like, the moment that it happened.

Unknown Speaker 6:59
Yeah. Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 7:01
Can you tell us a little bit about authentic selling? Sure, like, what do you offer now.

Kendrick Shope 7:06
So Emily described it great. Like, I'm going to go back and actually write that down, it's probably going to end up in my latest bio. But I think selling is basically the process that takes the IQ out of selling. It allows people who creative entrepreneurs, like your audience, to communicate their brilliance, what they love to do, how they can help people how they can change people's lives, business websites help weight, whatever area they coach around or offer services or products around, it allows them to do it in a way that is push free. And so it's the process that takes the the ick factor out of selling that allows you to sell in a way that is authentic to you. And the good news is the way Emily sales is going to be different than the way I sell. And the way your listener sells is going to be different than the way you know we all sell and so authentic selling makes room for everybody. It makes room for people who perhaps are a little bit more. I don't wanna use the word pushy, but lane towards being a bit more aggressive. And it also makes room for people who are very timid around selling you can have results either way. You just have to know what to do.

Kathleen Shannon 8:13
I love that at braid creative. We have this mantra called be a farmer, not a hunter. And it just like, it's the way that we sell we sell by we imagine that we're farming and that we're planting seeds and we're nurturing them and we're letting them grow. But sometimes I like to hunt. So

Kendrick Shope 8:31
wrong with hunting. Yeah, right. Well, and

Kathleen Shannon 8:33
you know, I'm on our Facebook group, sometimes on Fridays. I'm like, let's do a Friday hustle. And so when Friday I was like, What can you do to make $100 today? And that's kind of feels like hunting a little bit but in the fun in a fun way. Yeah. So anyway, but back to you.

Kendrick Shope 8:49
I'm curious to hear more. Well, I think that I think that you bring up a great point because it doesn't have to love farming. I talk about nurturing all the time. Wait, let me back up. I do not love farm. I love the idea of farming and planting seeds and nurturing that as it relates to clients. However, I think it's okay to hunt. I think it's also okay to be so excited about what you have to offer to know that it changes somebody's life business hell, whatever, that you are screaming from the rooftops I can help you, you know, the actual definition of selling like if you google selling right now you're gonna see the exchange of money for a product or service. That's it. There's nothing icky, sleazy, slimy, pushy about that. So all of our negative feelings about selling come from our own gross experiences that we've had with gross sales people. That doesn't mean we have to be a gross sales person, right? So it's about doing business in a different way. And that's how my people all the time if you had the cure for cancer, and you knew that there were no side effects and it doesn't matter if you're like, you know, a pharmaceutical person or you're an Uber green person, I don't care throw all that out the window. You have the cure for cancer and it cures cancer. And that's all that matters. Would you just keep it? Or would you jump up and down from the rooftops and say I can help you I have the cure for cancer. Of course, you would jump up and down from the rooftops, your products and services are no different. If you're not jumping up and down hunting, telling people about them, nobody else is going to.

Kathleen Shannon 10:20
I mean, right? Well, and not only that, but your junior clients by not telling them how to hide

Kendrick Shope 10:26
Shame on you. If you can improve somebody's like business, help weight, whatever, you can help somebody wake up and have more whatever the next day, and you don't share it. Shame on you. Tell me all the stuff that I need to buy because I'm all about like, Yes, tell me how to make it better. I want to know, I love that.

Emily Thompson 10:49
I love that Kendrick has like has like a dose of tough love in her too. And I have to admire the hell out of

Kendrick Shope 10:56
I do. Laura Bell, great. She is a copywriter she's worked for. Everybody knows, Disney doesn't matter. Anyway. She said to me one time You know what? You really just sort of sneak up on people and I have no clue what that means. Cuz I'm wild. So I'm thinking I Don't sneak up on. She said you come across we as pa but then you get to know you any girl you are tough as nails. And that's kind of true. I think I think the accent puts puts people off a little bit. And I think Oh, she says ready. And my husband's like yeah, y'all just so you get that directness, but I am I'm direct. I'm very,

Emily Thompson 11:31
I love that.

Well, I want to ask, I want to ask a few questions like based on some feedback that we've gotten in our Facebook group and questions that we've been asked, because I know that you more than anyone I know can help with like some creative entrepreneurs sells problems like sure more than anyone ever. So right, let's do it in short. So first, I want to go What is the number one issue that you have found in creatives? and their ability to sell? And what is a solution for it?

Kendrick Shope 12:04
So there are a couple the number one issue we touched on. So I'll give you I'll give you a number two, the number one issue or is people's thoughts and feelings about selling. If you feel icky, sleazy, slimy, gross, whatever. If you feel that way about communicating the value that your products and services deliver, you're not going to sell anybody, you're not sold on your product, the most important sale you're ever going to make is to yourself. So you have to be sold on your product. And you have to feel good about how you're communicating the difference that your product makes. that's step number one. And that is the most common SWOT authentic selling exists, because so many people don't know how to do that. The next common mistake I see people make is they have an if you build it, they will come mentality. No, I know. And it's just not true. It's just not true like, and I also think that people believe that. Because a lot of creative entrepreneurs, not all but a lot of creative entrepreneurs are behind a computer screen. But there doesn't have to be this actual engagement. But I am telling you that when you add in the actual engagement, your business skyrockets, people want to feel connected, people want to feel like they matter. And so when you add an engagement on various levels, it can be through email, it can be through how you communicate, you know, live with people or over voice or the word or whatever, it doesn't matter. But when you add that engagement factor into your sales process, it makes a huge difference. Just the way you talk to people, just the way you have sales conversations. huge mistake, majority of people don't know how to do it. And so they don't get as many clients and they don't make as much money as they possibly could.

Kathleen Shannon 13:53
So if you can get a little more specific, like what exactly like what would you say people? How are people typically responding that doesn't close a deal versus what what are some few things that they can shift? Yeah, to be a more authentic seller.

Kendrick Shope 14:07
I want you to imagine that you're on the phone with somebody and you're the potential buyer, okay. And typically speaking, there is neuro research to show that if you were the potential buyer, you are afraid of being sold, like your amygdala, amygdala highlights in your brain. I'm a sales nerd. And so all this stuff happens. So they'll go into a little bit of fight or flight that is calmed. When we as the provider of a service, or the person selling a product, get the potential customer to talk about themselves. I don't know why people think I don't want to talk about myself, but it works. So research shows that if you get people talking about themselves, if that amygdala calms down and they go a little bit out of that, the assumption is they go out of fight or flight and so the way to start a sales conversation is to get people to Talking about themselves. Now, the way a lot of sales experts teach that is to jump straight to the pain point, right? Like, tell me what's wrong with your business, what's wrong with your website? Why, but you can do that in a way that is so much more authentic. Like, I'm so excited to be talking to you today. Thank you so much for getting on the phone with me, I realized people are short on two things, they'll tell you, they're short on money. And they'll tell you they're short on time and time they can't make more of so even though this is a you know, a conversation to talk about how I can help your business. I just want to stop and say I value your time. Tell me why why did you reach out? Tell me a little bit about your business? And what's going on in your business? That isn't sitting quite right. What Why did you reach out to me, rather than just jumping on the pain point. I think the the other thing here is, so when you set the expectation, we back up when you set the expectation with a very genuine, thank you. But I realized that you and then have to be these exact words, but people are short on time, you know, I'm not jumping straight into the sales process. It's that sound so minor, it makes a huge difference in the way people sell and the way that your potential buyer views you. The other thing to do is to write down your customers words. So I'll give you an example. Let's say that I say to a potential client, tell me a little bit about your business, like Tell me, you know, I have people fill out an intake form. So I would say I read your intake form, but I need to know a little bit I want it helps me to hear you articulate it. So tell me tell me tell me about you know, selling and your your concerns about selling. And then I will write down their exact words. So people may say, my, I'm not making any money. Or people may say, I've launched this product five times, and I've spent $100,000 trying to launch it, and I've gotten to sales. So what are you going to mirror their words back? So it's typical sailing, but what a lot of people do is they say, Okay, I understand that you're not selling as much as you want to know, that is not what the customer said, the customer said, I'm not making as much money. I watched this product five times. And I've had two sales. Now, this sounds so simple. But what happens is your customer is not potential customers not keeping track of their words. So when you say exactly what they said right back to them, it's like you're in their head. It is like you read their diary. And you're also checking for impact. So not in a sleazy way. But this is what I understood you to say is this, right? Whatever that is, the next thing you want to do, and nobody teaches this is to thank somebody for sharing. A lot of people want to jump right into the sales process, right? They want to link Oh, you've spent $100,000 and you've only had to sales authentic selling can help authentic selling can help and that's okay. But you're not gonna get a lot of business that way. It's gonna feel pushy. Somebody just shared a problem with you. a pain point with you. thank them for sharing us a little bit all Southern manners. It's like, you know what, thanks so much for sharing that with me. And then the next words out of your mouth, and I do care what these these need to be these need to be the exact words are I understand. There is all kinds of sales ratio research to show that when someone expresses either an objection or a problem, you want to use the word I understand, I understand what it feels like to launch a product five times spend $100,000 and only make two sales. It feels awful. I understand. Now you can sell. Now you've had some empathy. Now they're on your side. That's the exact reason I created authentic selling to take you from flopping around with five launches, spending $100,000 only getting to sales, to having your next launch go much better to having your next launch have 500 people, whatever you can promise I'm making this up, right? So I would never say because I wouldn't know if they even had 500 people on their list. But you get what I'm saying that's the exact It's okay, we're always exaggerating. Right?

Emily Thompson 19:03
We exaggerate everything around here.

Kendrick Shope 19:05
So that's the exact reason you created your product or service, if it indeed is. Now what you've done here is you've instituted one of the foundations of authentic selling without even knowing it. Because all things being equal, friends, buy from friends, all things being equal friends buy from brands. So what that means even if they're total stranger, you have taken the time to get to know them, thank them for their time. You did not leap straight into selling you thank them again for sharing their issue. You took the time to have some empathy you understood, and then you've got the solution. So it's not just like Yep, I see that all the time. Yep. If you don't get that fix that business is gonna go grow. gag me with a spoon. I mean, let's pull out an 80s card here.

Unknown Speaker 19:52
So, specifically, what

Kendrick Shope 19:54
can you do? That was the question this is a long answer to a question. I'm

Kathleen Shannon 19:57
no I love it.

Kendrick Shope 19:58
I love it. Start with a genuine thank you be genuine about the thank you number two let the person talk about themselves let's see you know what if you want to say you know what on a texas southern accent where are you today well i'm in good ol knoxville tennessee oh my god which college in knoxville that's okay like you don't have to talk for 30 minutes but talk for three okay well thank you so much for filling out the form the free work it helps me get an understanding of where you are it's also going to help me hear you articulate it so tell me why why are we why are we on the phone today what is it that i can help you with or you think i can help you with okay great thank you so much for sharing i understand what that feels like that's the exact reason i created whatever the name of your product or service is to take you from to you're almost done with your sales conversation at that point almost

Kathleen Shannon 20:48
can i ask you a quick question well it might not be a quick question

Unknown Speaker 20:51
why is that well it might not get

Kathleen Shannon 20:57
and so whenever i imagine talking to you and your work with emily emily is selling a service but i'm wondering what the difference between selling services versus selling products is like and do you specialize in one over the other great question

Kendrick Shope 21:13
so there there is a difference let's let's talk about obvious differences products are tangible my new kids on the block mag is tangible this might be a product right i would probably the only person to buy it but it's tangible i can feel it it's emotional for me because i smile when i see it but it's tangible it was made somewhere in some manufacturing place it people aren't attached to this like they are services so to speak so products are tangible they have tangible benefits it keeps my coffee warm products are easier to talk about the benefits of when you're communicating with with customers however i don't believe for the most part that there is that big of difference between selling products and services and i'm going to tell you what i mean even if you're selling a product i want good service i want the nick is on the block my now is a bad example because i ordered it from a website because i love my kids on the block people buy off of emotion not off of logic but let's say i'm looking for the perfect coffee cup okay that's a product but i want service i'm gonna go to amazon because i know amazon's gonna have it too here in bentonville arkansas in the middle of nowhere the next day they're the only person i guarantee you besides maybe walmart they can have it here the next day amazon is amazon selling products but they're successful because of their level of service let's take zappos for example zappos sells products but they are a giant in the industry because they have set themselves apart through levels of service so yes to answer your question kathleen of course there's a difference and the benefits are easier to state at first glance between a product and a service however the way that a product based business can really set themselves apart is by becoming a service based business now yes your product has to work of course your product has to do what it says it's going to do but then when you add in to the mix the service you're unstoppable mr so to answer your question do i specialize in one or the other typically most people contact me for services however i spent over a decade selling products so you know i'm happy to help with with with either i feel very qualified to help with either what i will tell you is the way like that that statement that the manager made about if i could bottle what you had it was because i traded the products like services there were there were 5 million that's not exaggerating numbers again there were five or six different types a diabetes drugs that my doctors could write why did they write mine in the patients that it was that it was going to help because some patients it wasn't because of our relationships because i treated it like a service because i went in there and i didn't sell anything for six months i said i'm in your house i want to get to know you i want to get to know your staff i want to get to know how i can add value to this office whereas most reps come in and say wham bam thank you ma'am box right my product so even products become a service based industry i think and if you look at it that way i would say 80% of all businesses product based businesses really could have a service component service based component if they applaud it does that answer your question yeah no

Kathleen Shannon 24:44
i love that that was really cool hearing that

Emily Thompson 24:47
as someone who started her creative entrepreneur life in a product business and like even like if you watch shark tank huge shark tank fan one of the questions they always ask Ask people before investing is how often like stores will reorder. And like, as someone who did product base and like, I sold jewelry, like I made jewelry for, for a couple of years before I started doing websites, it definitely is that service component that will keep people coming back. And as those returned customers, that gives you a business. So I agree, I think I think that, that treating products and services is super important. But I also want to point out like, your process, you keep talking about like sales conversations, and especially in the in the context of a sales call. But all of this stuff works just as easily via email. Like, if I mean, if not more easily, probably Yeah, email, like being able to write really great sales emails, and, and again, taking the time to thank people for their time. And thank you for sharing, and Lena, let's get to know each other. And then like addressing what it is that you can do and how it helps. those emails are really important. And again, something that you can apply to either a service based business, or someone who's inquiring about your product, because they're just not sure what what's going on, you know, based on descriptions or whatever. Um, so yes, I love that.

Kendrick Shope 26:11
I think that, you know, it's funny, because people will call me, friends and family will call me and they'll be like, that aren't selling anything, I need help with this email, I've got a really hard email to write and I need help with this email, and it cracks me up because all I do is go straight down and apply authentic selling to it like okay, step one, step two, step number three. But when you're talking about selling a product or service, the math is the same. I mean, it's what I call the authentic selling equation. And that is pain points. And pain points are the problem, right? If your customers don't have a problem that they need solved, you don't have a business. Lots of creative entrepreneurs say, Well, my customers are perfect. And that's what I'm trying to get them to see. And like life coaches, know, they may be perfect, but they're experiencing pain, or they're not going to pay you to tell you, you don't have a problem. Thank you for your $20,000 I mean, that's insane. You know, I mean, so pain points, plus your offer, or your product, which is a feature pain points plus feature and features, just simply your offer your product, your service, equals desired outcome. And desired outcome is what that product or service is going to do, but not just what it's going to do. It's what it's going to change. So I'll give you an example. Let's say that I asked, I have an amazing weight loss product, okay. And it's targeted towards moms who've just had a baby who want to lose 10 pounds or less. Okay? So the pain point is, you're a mom, you're rundown, you're tired, you're giving everybody else all of you, and you're shoving food in your mouth, right and left and you're feeling tired, whatever, whatever, whatever, you gain not an extra 10 pounds, or you haven't lost 10 pounds from being pregnant. Okay, great. Those are the pain points. The feature is amazing. 10 pounds, baby weight loss, magic formula, whatever, right? All you do is take it in the morning, and it tastes like whatever your favorite drink is, the benefit is not losing just 10 pounds, the benefit is losing 10 pounds. So you can feel better than you've ever felt before have more energy than you've ever had before. spend quality time with that precious newborn baby fit in your clothes again, feel amazing. Yes, they're feeling states because again, people buy off of emotion, not logic. They rationalize it, they justify it with logic. So pain point, plus feature equals equals desired outcome every single time. And that's what selling is when you can communicate those three things you're selling.

Kathleen Shannon 28:52
I think that's a good point, too, is that, you know, maybe a lot of the creatives listening to this podcast might think of selling as this thing that's outside of themselves or something that they're not good at. And I think what I'm really getting from this conversation is that you're selling just by one using your manners to explaining what you do, and how that's going to help the customer. And then that's kind of that's

Kendrick Shope 29:19
it. It is and you know what, if you live in a if you're if you don't live alone in the woods, and were completely by yourself, you're selling. So I'll give you an example. Usually I try to pick my daughter up at 240 and I call my husband and I and I said I have this amazing podcast interview that I'm doing and so could you please pick up hollyanne and he said I have a meeting and I'm like, Okay, well, we've got Parent Teacher, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm selling him. I'm selling him I'm leaving his meeting. Maybe you are honey I need help with the laundry. Well why would I want to do the laundry I'm watching football. Okay, you're selling you mean that you sell people every day you do you sell people But it becomes really personal when it's stuff we've created. It's our heart. It's our soul. It's not laundry, right? It's our heart and our soul, we get afraid. And that's okay, that shows that you care. But learning how to put that into a system. Yes, that is manners. That is telling people why it matters, which is really hard for people, not just what the product or service is going to do. So for example, Emily doesn't just make websites, lots of people make websites, Emily makes websites the right way. Emily makes websites that have clients wanting to pay that make her clients money in their sleep, there's a difference. Anybody can make website, you know what I mean? The problem is, I need a website. The feature is I'm going to build you a website, the desired outcome is you get a website? No, that's not it. It's the why it matters part.

Emily Thompson 30:56
Yeah, that your your why it matters. So every time every time Kendrick and I go through any of like my cell stuff, whether it's my cell slides or sales pages, she's like, drilling into me constantly. Why does that matter? So why does that matter? And so like, as you're reading these things, and doing it with my own clients now to where they will, like, send me emails that they want to write someone or send me over content for a website, just want me to take a look at it. And and I'll find myself doing that, too. I think that's like one of the probably one of the biggest takeaways that I've like, gotten from working from you, is this idea that we write this content for websites, and I want to get into website content in a second, we write our content for our website, or our product descriptions or, or our newsletters. And I think that a lot of times we get into creating this content without thinking about why it matters. So um, yeah, I guess the indie boom sales page is the one I most recently did. And we were going through and looking at like, the features like what it is that people get like, you get a website. Emily, why does that matter? And you get optional ecourse or e commerce Kendricks like why does that matter? Because it is that why does it matter piece that we tend to forget, we go through the bullet point, like all the pieces of the puzzle that you get, like you get a logo and you get a color palette and like all those things, but why do those things matter? Like once people have those things? What is it that it's going to accomplish for them? And that's a missing piece of the puzzle that I've always I never thought about until I started working with you. But now that like I have that drill in my head. Thank you very much. Kendrick is something that I can even take to my own clients with this idea of like, as you are as we're creating these websites, or as you are, you know, building up a social media strategy, like okay, you want to be on Facebook? Why does that matter? Like what is it that you are going to be giving to people? It's such an important part of the puzzle. And I'm glad that you preach that so hard.

Unknown Speaker 32:54
It's kind of existential to a little like, why does it matter? Oh, my gosh, why

Kendrick Shope 32:58
does anything? That's okay. Yeah, that's what my clients do, right? They're like, Oh, especially people like Emily, who worked with me for a while. They're like, Oh, my God, I know what's coming. I don't know why. But see, why it matters is is is usually can can be tangible, or is it feeling state, but what's interesting about website copy, I think is and this actually is not just website copy, but it's emails, it's anything. One of the things you can do. And I love doing this with people, although it feels mean but it's awesome because they see it when they like let's let's say you write a blog or you write website copy, and you've got your headline, right? What's the first thing nine times out of 10? I highlight that and say would you open this email? If this was the subject line? Would you open it? You got kids jumping on your back? You got your boss on the phone you got your tablet on you got scandal on what would you open this email that says how to have more joy in your life. I want to know what Olivia Pope's they went on scandal or what she's wearing. So website copy to every line of copy has one job it is not to get a close it is not to get a sale. Every line of copy has one job to get someone to read the next line. And with website coffee, people rarely read at all. They just don't probably with emails too, if the truth be told. So it's got to be scannable what these big huge chunks and paragraphs that people put in there, people aren't reading that. You can be the best coffee in the world, people aren't reading it. So it has to be scannable. And you better believe when that coffee when they're scanning that coffee. That's where you want the white matter statements. That's where nobody goes to bed at night and sets and says I want my bank brand to be congruent with MMA, the way I am in person or the way I am with my clients. Nobody says that. Nobody says that. They say I want to make more money. They say I want more clients. They say I want more time with my child, whatever it is that your people say they want and so yes My brand your brand as a result of working with with Emily, maybe more. This is a bad example I'm kind of stumbling because my brand is not very congruent. Your brand makes a big conglomerate with how with how you show up with how you deliver your message with you know, it all needs to be on point it all needs to be on target if you go to Kendrick sharp.com. And she looks like a life coach, and she looks really soft. And then you see you're here and you're like what the heck, this doesn't add up. Nobody says I want my brand to be congruent, or I want my they say I want more customers, I want more money. That's what you do. That's why it matters.

Kathleen Shannon 35:37
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So Kendrick, I'm curious, you said that I'm stumbling because I'm not congruent. And I think that this is a big theme that comes up a lot on being boss. And even in our Facebook group. People say I love you guys, because you make it clear that you're obviously experts, but that you're also figuring it out as you go. And Emily and I aren't. We're not shy to share that. And so I think it was funny hearing you say that. You're kind of figuring it out, too. And so yeah, thanks for sharing that. I understand.

Kendrick Shope 37:44
Yeah, I am figuring it out. And Emily can probably tell you, um, yeah, I'm figuring it out. Not Well, I mean, we just kind of had like a sort of what I would call epic failure. And it is, and we survived. You share more about

Kathleen Shannon 38:01
that. You don't have to, but yeah, I'd love to hear what your failure was.

Kendrick Shope 38:07
Yeah, yeah. I haven't talked about this publicly. I've talked about it privately. But I haven't talked about it publicly yet. But um, so we had the original Well, I don't even know if it was the original. But we had the website that was up forever. And it was pink. And wow. And I don't know, Emily, you could speak to everything I wanted, like this is in no way is any of this a slam on designers. It's what I wanted. It's what I asked them to do, because I didn't know. And I made a lot of money with that website, by the way, made a lot of money. However, I decided in I don't know, last quarter of the end of last year, I want authentic selling to take more of a center stage. And I want the focus to be more on what authentic selling can do. And so we attempted to rebrand. The problem was there were lots of problems. But one of the main problems was I don't know how to rebrand. I know how to sell. So we launched this new website, and I'm sure it was every I'm sure it was exactly what I told my designer, I have no doubt it was. However, I started getting this feedback from people that knew me well. I wouldn't hire you as my sales coach. You look like a life coach. Or when I go to KTV, which KTV has been my blog. And Emily, I have we have talked about this one off, but people are telling me now after three years of KTV I don't take you seriously because you sing that goofy song like I don't I didn't know how smart you are like Allie Brown said to me, I can't even watch K TV. But I got on the phone with you and I was like this girl is whip smart. She knows her stuff. But that starts pushing people away Kendrick I'm like pulling kale my brand is freaking mayor and I thought it were you like through that

Kathleen Shannon 39:59
rebrand. Process were you trying to emulate someone? Like when are you talking about like singing? I haven't seen it. I'm sorry. But like, like, I even think about, like Marie Forleo how she's like, kind of goofy. And then, you know, people are like trying to imitate Marie Forleo or even, um, I know a lot of people like, there's a trend right now just dropping the F bomb in newsletters and like, lots of cussing. And then I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna try cussing. And then not really, truly I mean, I, in my newsletters, it is not authentic to me to cuss in my newsletters. And so it's sometimes I like to try on different people style for my own style. And I think that's how we find ourselves is by trying on different hats and seeing what feels right and taking little bits and pieces. And, but really, it's like, whenever you can get to really who you are that shines through. Like, that's where your true brand rises. So I'm curious, like, maybe what your experience was there?

Kendrick Shope 40:56
Well, so the answer is I started KTV. So long ago, I mean, it was just three years, but I don't remember, but probably, probably, if the truth be known, I had watched a lot of not that is true. I'd watched a lot of Marie TV, I had just wrapped up working with Marie one on one for a year. So probably however, I will say that there was some thought process behind the goofy song. So the thought process was, people are gonna be like, what's this girl doing? She's singing. But she's singing this song, Terrific Tuesday, Tip of the Week, and it shows up every Tuesday in my inbox at 730. I wanted people to know when to expect it. And then I wanted people to say, oh, get used to the song. It's a bit like Pavlov's dog. And then now that I'm a sales, great sales tip is coming afterwards. But what and it worked, it attracted a lot of people. But that does not shine a spotlight on authentic selling. It does not people don't necessarily, you know, if you're going to hire me to help you make a million dollars in your business, Paul, I don't want to see me singing. Here's the thing. So I was at a meeting with some of my best business friends. And they all said KTV is not you and I was like, What do you mean? And so I called my husband and I'm like, Am I goofy? And he's like, No, he's like, you're about as lovable as a cat. Right? I am nurturing and I, but I'm tough. And so I'm like, well, the KTV song and he's like I told you not to do that three years ago. That sound like I'm sitting across from people that know me well. And what they're all telling me is, that is a performance that you enjoy doing. And I didn't know it. But you have a brand called authentic selling, and it's not authentic to who you are. So when customers get on the phone with you or getting sales school with you, or get one on one with you, their moms are probably a little like, Who the heck is this? Because they're expecting goofiness and that is not what they get. And that's okay, fair point. But I didn't know it. I needed somebody to tell me so yeah, I'm figuring it out every single day. And the website's been up since March 4. It's still it's I mean it's still doesn't do right we're behind the scenes really quickly trying to throw it together so it does but I mean, you just go on that's what business is. You try you fail, you learn and you try again. I mean, there is no stigma attached to failure man for me Hey man. What can I learn from this and how do I get

Emily Thompson 43:34
out of this man? love that so it just like that one point like we've had so many people like emailing us saying Lee to talk about like wanting and we actually recently did a podcast about like what how do you rebrand if you have no money or you know what do you do? And just yeah the point that like even if you have money like you don't have to have a perfect website or a spot on perfect brand to get started. Because you did you have rocked out sales goal and your coaching like all of that stuff with a brand that you now know had nothing.

Kendrick Shope 44:07
Yeah, you know what? And so the truth here is is because of engaged Yeah, because I've taught a lot of free calls because people want I did a lot of interviews. I asked some some customers recently Why did you sign up to work with me? And and the feedback bar none was I never watched KTV I heard you speak I saw an interview. I whatever. And so I mean, again this like flashing lights in my face like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. But yes, you can build a very successful very profitable beyond your wildest dreams business when your brand is not congruent. However, at some point, depending on what your goals are, your business grows up. You know, it's like a baby who's teething or a puppy who's jumping all over the place. It's temper. It was time for us to grow up. It's for authentic selling for us to step into the spotlight because it can make people a lot of money and that's amazing and so i don't want it to be about me i want it to be about authentic selling and when people come sure i'm the face of authentic selling when people come i want them to know i'm serious i'm gonna help you make money not i'm not not not that we can't have fun but first and foremost it's a different conversation man terrific tuesday to

Kathleen Shannon 45:25
you know i could go on and on about branding because that's my area of expertise and i love talking about it but one of the things that we do it actually told me to kind of similar to your sales process and i love connecting those dots between i mean selling and branding i didn't realize how hand in hand they really go but um i guess whenever i think about like why does it matter for what i'm doing is that it does help people sell better and sell as their authentic selves but like whenever you're talking about your process of listening to their exact words it's funny because we send our one on one clients a little bit of homework and we have them fill something out on paper and then we talk it through with them but we want to hear it in their words even though we can see what they wrote because what they wrote might be jargon or real like sophisticated or real serious whereas what they're saying out loud might be as sharp as a cactus or it might or it might be whatever and so we're able to actually see what they're actually saying and then we take those words what they're actually saying and put it into their brand and so that they have a platform now that doesn't mean we don't stop growing and it doesn't mean that we don't stop figuring it out as we go but what we phrase it as is that we want it to feel like the next page in the chat like the next chapter in the book you know does this make sense after this and setting people up so that they can make those leaps and jumps and just turn those pages so that everything feels like it's evolving and not like fragmented way

Kendrick Shope 47:03
yeah i think that that's the thing too like i've learned again i am really comfortable with the areas in which i excel and i'm really comfortable in the areas that i do not excel in branding is an area i do not excel it i don't i've learned a lot about it and i mean i don't excel in it at all and i never will but i think it's really interesting one of one of the things that people forget sometimes i forget sometimes because i wanted to be so not corporate i came from corporate america i want to be so not corporate but you're still asking people to give you their money right their money which again people say they're short on two things money and time i don't want to give my money to an amateur i want to give money to an expert so a brand helps you establish trust with a buyer a consistent brand helps you establish trust with a buyer it helps you be seen as the expert you are now everybody didn't have to look corporate and everybody would have to look the same way and brands can have personality infused into them absolutely but i am learning so much about why branding matters beyond what i mean can i just jump in and say real quick i

Kathleen Shannon 48:21
think there's a big difference between corporate and expert so like i wouldn't be an expert without looking or feeling corporate i think that you can be professional without looking like a like a corporate professional does and so i think it is about redefining that as well

Kendrick Shope 48:43
yeah that's a great point and i totally totally agree

Kathleen Shannon 48:46
i was like so i've told this story many times but i was worried whenever i locked up my hair that my family would starve and then my sister who's my business partner i was worried that her children would starve i was worried that our business lives and let's just like a really kind of almost shallow exam worst

Emily Thompson 49:04
case scenario kathy

Kathleen Shannon 49:10
can you hear my baby

Emily Thompson 49:11

Kathleen Shannon 49:12
oh good okay sorry he's upstairs like they just came home and he's upstairs screaming crying anyway um so that is just a shallow or not shallow but it's um it's a little example of how maybe i had this fear of not looking professional and not being able to sell because of the way that i i chose to look but if anything it kind of helped in some ways i can get help support my expertise i suppose yeah

Kendrick Shope 49:43
yeah let me let me let me tell you a real quick story you are your worst case scenario this is not worst case scenario but it was pretty freaking

Emily Thompson 49:53
please please do picture it yeah

Kendrick Shope 49:55
what do you say to that no we don't want to picture it it's my birthday i have like an idiot all over social media new website coming on birthday new website coming on my birthday so excited to rebrand i did not ask for anybody's opinion about the mock ups or anything like i just didn't ask i am friends with some of the most brilliant business moms branding minds on the planet i didn't ask him so it launches and i get a call from a customer actually that's not true i got a message over skype from a customer that says can you talk and i was like yeah i was on my birthday but i'm not sure what's up and so we get on skype it's my birthday got the day off it's snowed my daughter's home from school my mom is here from tennessee visiting we're gonna eat pizza we're gonna have fun and she's like i just need to talk to you and just like i have wrestled with this and wrestled with this and i just have to say it and i said okay what and she said your website does not she didn't use these words but your website goes backwards oh is that your brand back and she's like here's what she said i'm sorry but here's why and she was again this has nothing to do with the designer the designer did exactly what i communicated so the blame is on me i am not about the designer did exactly what we mapped out i'm just like hmm all right well this is great because you know the 1000s of people on my list are getting stuff you know about she's like these are the things you need to fix immediately and i'll go in and fix them for you for free because i love you and i'm like no that's okay and so like my big birthday celebration went to total meltdown

Unknown Speaker 51:40

Unknown Speaker 51:42
customers are gonna leave emily's gonna call because she makes websites and say i thought you were better than

Kendrick Shope 51:50
me yeah yeah yeah and then that was early in the morning she's overseas so then calls started coming in from business besties and they went progressively down like that was so the point here is after i didn't follow my own rules i melted down but after i melted down i said this is an epic failure i have learned that i know nothing about branding this is an area where i need some help and i need it fast i need it by may 1 to be done how do i get it and i don't care what it cost because i don't want to go backwards so the point here is yeah we're all going to have them epic fricking failures and you might need to melt down and you may need to cry on the bathroom floor and you might need to say my baby's thing you pick yourself up like every boss and you say how do we move forward and what do we learn and now it's a funny story and when the new website launches and the new brand it'll be a whole area story

Emily Thompson 52:55
oh no that's oh i want to like give you a hug kendrick only knew

Kendrick Shope 53:04
that whole week i had for i'm not even an emotional eater i for entire large pizzas that were in seven days i got on a plane at the end of seven days to go to california to speak and when i got off the plane i mean i was so puffy i was afraid i was walking into a weight loss like a group of weight loss coaches and i'm like oh my god i'm so perfect okay in the last seven days whole pizzas eight to 12 pieces in one sitting yeah i was a disaster

Emily Thompson 53:37
it happens but like would you do it and you're getting a whole new brand and website and it's all going to be fantastic right

Kendrick Shope 53:45
right it is and let me tell you what i have asked every business expert i know that's not a customer right is this okay this is what do you think about this like i'm so paranoid your tribe

Unknown Speaker 53:55
that's like there are like points to all your tribe

Kendrick Shope 54:00
i love it i love it i love it so no matter where you are that's what business is your business grows up you have failures you melt you pick yourself up what do i learn how do we move forward that's what running a business is anybody tells you difference not right they're not

Emily Thompson 54:16
a man

Kendrick Shope 54:18
says i got it all figured out is

Kathleen Shannon 54:21
so true well thank you so much for your taking the time with us today can i understand your branding pain

Kendrick Shope 54:30
oh my gosh i know you do like seriously you too if i could have gotten you two together and we could have had a demo like may not have been like just take every penny

Kathleen Shannon 54:42
that we could have worked something out if we had known that emily if we had known that we were getting a blank check

Unknown Speaker 54:47
i'm just kidding

Unknown Speaker 54:49
just kidding

Kathleen Shannon 54:50
no but really thank you so much for your time with us it was so nice meeting you kendrick i've heard so much about you from emily and so yeah we really appreciate you taking the time to do you're with us and to be with our listeners so yeah and thank you to our listeners for listening to being bossed from Emily Thompson and caffeine shannon find the show notes for this episode at love being boss calm where you can learn more about where to find kendrick and you can listen to past episodes and subscribe for new episodes on itunes soundcloud and stitcher if you like our podcast show us some love by reviewing being boss on itunes and sharing it with a friend do the work be boss and we'll see you all next week

Kendrick Shope 55:41
the jollies my video cuz it's okay we're i think we're all reconnecting videos like hilarious i've got a fly flying around i've got oh i

Emily Thompson 55:50
know the first two episodes that we did with video there was a fly and it was one of those things where like i never saw a fly but let me be getting recorded and it's like landing on my forehand and so it's like do you swat it and let everyone see you have no one ever notices