Kathleen Shannon 0:01
Hello, and welcome to being boss,
Emily Thompson 0:04
a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. I'm Emily Thompson.
Kathleen Shannon 0:07
And I'm Kathleen Shannon.
Halley Gray 0:10
I'm Ellie gray, and I'm being boss.
Kathleen Shannon 0:16
Hey guys, today we're talking about selling and launching with our friend Holly gray. As always, you can find all the tools, books and links we reference on the show notes at WWW dot being boss club.
Emily Thompson 0:30
Hey bosses, there are a couple of tools that we use in our business on a weekly basis from accounting software to content schedulers. And one of our favorites that we've been using for years is Edgar, a social media scheduling tool that helps us stay on top of sharing all of our episodes, blog posts, events and resources with those who follow us on social media. One of my favorite things is how when we record a great podcast, it doesn't fall out of reach as soon as a new one is released. Edgar helps us keep our old but still really great content alive by cycling through everything we've published all the time. Try Edgar for two weeks free no credit card required at WWW dot meet edgar.com slash being boss.
Kathleen Shannon 1:14
All right, if you guys want months of clients booked in advance me Holly gray of evolve and succeed. She teaches coaches designers and vas how to launch their services in her signature program be booked out. And we're gonna chat about all the things Holly, thanks for joining us. Thank
Halley Gray 1:31
you so much for having me. I love you guys. And I'm so excited to be here.
Kathleen Shannon 1:34
Ah, we love you. So the last time we chatted with you, we were chit faced Yeah,
Halley Gray 1:39
we were all shit faced. I'm surprised we remember that we were shit face because we were
Kathleen Shannon 1:44
I mean okay, so you do this thing called drunk webinars. Are you still doing drunk webinars?
Halley Gray 1:48
We are we've had to do a different format. Because you know what doing for drunk webinars back to back is basically like a is like a Death Note. Yeah, yeah. Because every day I would do a new one. And you know, we had an epic one. But after a while, my liver started to hurt pretty bad. So we're pre recording them and putting them out as like a YouTube series. Night.
Emily Thompson 2:14
So we were supposed to show up for a one hour webinar, right? We're gonna hang out three and a half hours later. Not only were we still here doing it, but like most of the people were still like on also getting kind of shitting on people that were completely sober. Yeah. laughing at us. We're still all hanging out with us, too. It was kind of one of my favorite internet experiences of my life. It's
Halley Gray 2:42
magical. And you and I still get people being like, so the being boss crew is my favorite drug webinar. I'm like, I could totally I saved for me my friend because it was so amazing that I was like, What is going on? I remember a lot of talk about oh, we were going to make you know, we're trying to get you to sign up to be an astronaut.
Kathleen Shannon 3:05
so crazy. I mocked up our book cover this week for our publisher just to kind of give some creative direction. And guess what's on the cover? astronaut face. Not an astronaut but space. Awesome. Anyway, I mean, since then, I mean, we've been putting a lot of space of I don't remember. Okay, so now remembering it's coming back to me the astronaut thing. I remember saying one thing snarky, maybe a little snarky, and I've regretted it ever since. Like, and I don't I don't regret much about like what I say. You know, usually I give myself a lot of grace to sound dumb or say the wrong thing. But I think I said something a little snarky. And I've been regretting it ever since you
Unknown Speaker 3:46
Kathleen Shannon 3:46
it's not that big of a deal. Probably not. Hopefully not.
Emily Thompson 3:49
I don't even call it
Halley Gray 3:51
No. That's the beauty of getting drunk is that everything is okay. You know? Well, mostly when you say excuse for every Yeah, you're like, um,
Emily Thompson 3:58
the thing that I remember most was bacon vaginas.
Kathleen Shannon 4:04
And we were gonna make bacon to China emoji.
Emily Thompson 4:08
A couple weeks later, I was flipping through a notebook because yeah, like one of the last things you might have to do. So we were like, two sheets. The wind at this point was we had to draw what an A mode like our dream emoji, basically. Yes. And Kathleen's or something came up. I think yours was a vagina and mine was bacon. made it the bacon vagina. I was flipping through a notebook like several weeks or months, like, like a long time afterwards, and I found the bacon vagina. And I laughed so hard for so long about I mean, like, favorite internet experience ever.
Halley Gray 4:44
Oh, it was so much fun with you, too. It was ridiculous. I just remember us. There was Spice Girls as well. And also, we were trying to get Kathleen to sign up to be an astronaut.
Emily Thompson 4:56
Right and this is Kathleen going to the NASA website.
Unknown Speaker 4:59
Really legit I have
Emily Thompson 5:00
a job opening for an astronaut and her starting to fill it out
Unknown Speaker 5:05
Kathleen Shannon 5:08
And then I feel like maybe I already made more money than an astronaut.
Emily Thompson 5:14
That I think I think,
Halley Gray 5:15
yeah, you're like, hey, this doesn't pay very well and then be I think their website is so bad. The government website is so bad that we were like, how do you even use this? Yeah,
Emily Thompson 5:26
we're drunk and judgy Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 5:27
we were definitely website.
Kathleen Shannon 5:29
Okay, but So today, we're completely sober. And I'm hopefully going to have a really good conversation about selling and launching. I mean, I feel like we set this up as like, listen to us the lashes, telling you how to. We just know how to have a good time. Yeah,
Halley Gray 5:47
it's an important part of the business process is to have a good time. Relax, and let people see you for who you are. Sometimes, you know, sometimes you can't get everything on point. And you're just gonna be a little bit messy.
Emily Thompson 5:58
To understand there's a time and place for everything.
Unknown Speaker 6:00
Emily Thompson 6:01
I'm in place for everything.
Unknown Speaker 6:04
Kathleen Shannon 6:04
Yeah. So if you want to have a drink with me and Emily, yeah, it's amazing how you should come to Let's all go to New Orleans together this fall.
Halley Gray 6:12
I'm so keen. I'm so keen. I was thinking about doing a live round of them. Because people are like, Can we do this, like face to face now? And I'm like, yeah, we should do that. We should just go and do that. And then have just like a camera crew there. Actually Greg from Thinkific was offering his place up in Vancouver to do a live drunk webinar recording, which is like a whole bunch of us like josta and and, you know, Paul, drivers and stuff. So it would be pretty cool to do that live.
Kathleen Shannon 6:37
If you can get Paul Jarvis out of his house.
Unknown Speaker 6:39
You can't You can't get Paul out of his house. You'd have to go and kidnap him.
Kathleen Shannon 6:44
He doesn't have to take a drink to his and I feel like he's sober.
Unknown Speaker 6:47
Yeah, he didn't
Kathleen Shannon 6:49
Unknown Speaker 6:50
Yeah, he ate Skittles. Didn't he? He Skittles. Yeah. For his drink, Cobra because he's allergic to alcohol.
Emily Thompson 6:55
Okay, back to selling.
Kathleen Shannon 7:00
Okay. Aside from hosting drunk webinar, yes, Holly, tell us about yourself. Okay.
Halley Gray 7:08
So to like tie this in for a nice segue, I find that when you're doing something different online, that's when people notice you. And that's when you're able to sell to them. So when you get people who after a while the internet starts to feel and read and sound all the same. So if you don't take the time to kind of drill into what people want to do for reals and get specific, you end up not getting enough sales. So drunk webinars is a way for people to notice along succeed and to see all these amazing, smart people being themselves, which makes them love them more. And so that was a way for us to basically tap into that like wanting to know people who are big, like Emily and Kathleen, and getting to know them at like a personal level. So it feels like you're drinking with them. And so that's a marketing strategy. We had to be like, we love We love these people, we want to get their smarts on camera, we want to get goofy with them. Because sometimes there's not space to be goofy, online and be yourself because you're so worried about people. But like when you put it in a safe space, and you let people just relax and be themselves. That's really important. Because not only they do this to stand up and take notice, but it's different. And being different online. Like legitimately talking and doing something different is key for marketing yourself and for eventually selling.
Kathleen Shannon 8:20
So it sounds like drunk webinars was a really authentic marketing strategy that I would have never even kind of thought, at the top of my mind. Oh, this is a marketing strategy. And I think that's a nice words authentic and marketing strategy feels like an oxymoron. So I'm curious to hear from you. How you approach authentic marketing and and maybe authentic isn't even the right word. Like maybe that word makes you cringe? I bet it's making a lot of our listeners cringe because it's being so overused at this point. So how do you keep your marketing strategies real and genuine, and in that place where you're really connecting?
Halley Gray 8:56
So long term, it's a marketing strategy, because we get all these smart people and we get to unlock all their smarts in there a little bit of their secrets, you know, get them to sign up to be astronauts. But when it comes to like standing out online, authentic makes me cringe. Because people if you're just being yourself, you're being authentic. And that's not necessarily a marketing strategy. So what drunk webinars was isn't an example of a marketing strategy. And it's kind of more like a PR campaign. But basically, you're saying, okay, specifically, what does one person want? And how can I provide that? And so what I saw a lot of people online wanting and what I myself wanted to do, was that sometimes you're so people who have been doing this for so long, get asked the same interview questions all the time. And so their personalities become more two dimensional, the more they get interviewed. And so I saw that being a disconnect from people who are big names and being a disconnect from people who are just starting up is that you have this same questions being asked over and over again, which solidifies and cements that same online persona. And it starts to Feel like a trap. So I wanted to kind of break down that wall and do it in a way that felt safe. It felt Goofy, it felt like you could just be yourself. And so not only did it make the big names feel closer to the people who are just starting, but it made the people who are just starting feel more comfortable trusting the big names. So not only becomes like a marketing PR strategy for Obama succeed, but it becomes it for everybody who become who comes on drunk webinars, because now their audience trust them 10 times more, because they've seen them under their goofiest, you know, they've seen them when they're smiling and laughing and trying to be making emojis. So it makes everybody kind of it makes the internet feel closer and feel like, like has less walls and barriers for just being being yourself. And so that's specifically what I wanted to accomplish from drink webinars is to kind of break down those interview walls that people have put up in this persona walls and long term, it's just more about doing that for the internet as a marketing strategy and showing that that's an evolutionary step you can take. And so it's more about getting specific and drilling into specific pain points and problems and solutions you want to create, instead of just being like, I'm gonna run a podcast because there's brilliant people already doing podcasts. So why don't you kind of find a way to use that to achieve a certain goal. And so that's what I was trying to do is when you're getting specific about your marketing and your, your goals, you just need to get really specific so that you can come up with something new and creative.
Emily Thompson 11:22
I love that. I mean, so often, I mean all over the place, we see people who are doing the thing, but it's the same thing that five other people did before them, or maybe even just one other person dead, dead before them. But if everyone were to take some moments, to get really clear about what it is that not only they want to provide, but what the people who are listening to them want from them. That's where you get those like really great little nuggets of ideas that turned into a thing that is unlike anything you've seen out there. This is something that Kathleen and I bring into everything we create from our individual businesses, but specifically in especially into being boss and how we bring things together. For what we create here. We see the inundation with copycats all over the web. And I definitely see the value in taking some moments to pause and come up with a thing that is so you, and so like, not even so you because if I think of me like I'm much more of a hermit, then I feel like this podcast, probably Yeah,
Kathleen Shannon 12:24
we're all gonna be sitting on Emily's porch having tea with her. Hey, you know what, though? Like, maybe that's actually a really great marketing, right? Yeah, oh, I
Emily Thompson 12:32
love that a ton good, I would be much more comfortable with that. But see, even then, like that's so out of the norm. And it takes like a moment of reflection to really see that it's easy to copy someone else, it's easy to do the same thing as everyone else. It takes a moment. And it takes some like self reflection, which a lot of people have struggles with, to really get creative with what you can do. That plays to your own strings and plays to your people's pain points. That's really different from everything that's out there.
Halley Gray 13:07
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's what a lot of marketing is missing. Nowadays, it's copy paste marketing. So they just do the same thing. They say the same thing, they offer the same thing. And unfortunately, marketing is really effective and powerful. Once you get specific and drill into a specific person, it's like getting a present for your best friend, you want to just get them a generic president you picked up at the grocery store, you would have it like he spent a lot of time thinking about it a lot of time figuring out like, what they would want, what they like how you could surprise them. And a lot of people are just doing generic marketing, which is like, whatever, I'll just get you whatever present I can find. So,
Kathleen Shannon 13:42
but I wonder if it's a little bit of a blend of both in some ways, I'm thinking about going to art school, and I had my foundations class where I'm learning how to copy the Masters in my first year of school. And in that way, I'm able to learn the techniques. And what makes those masters so great. Then in years, two, three and four, I'm really able to start to bring my own voice to the equation. And so I think having a good foundation and going through a program can be a really great way to get that foundation without all the pressure that can paralyze you to being innovative like thinking about you know, even just talking about drunk webinars, if I start thinking whole shit, what's my drunk webinar, like, I automatically start to lock myself in to pairing my next offering against your genius offering so even if it's not a copy of drunk webinar, which could in fact be tea on Emily's poor podcast would definitely be but it's more like it's more like being innovative on your own terms. So I just want to share a little bit maybe about how Emily and I have done this in a way that didn't feel paralyzing. And for us, it was simply taking some combined equity variances like what we had created online? What we had created offline with the being boss New Orleans vacation and asking ourselves, how do we combine the best of these two experiences into one big experience? How do we bring offline vibes into an online space through our unique experience? And so it's kind of by posing the question that we were really able to get innovative within that space, versus what's my next rank webinar? Or what's the next B school or you know, all the things that people really admire and strive to be, which is okay, too. But it's like, how do you get into that split space of innovation? So I love Holly, to hear from you. Like, how do you get into that space of innovation? Like where you even start thinking about what you want to create in a really unique way?
Halley Gray 15:48
Yeah. So I think a couple of things that you have to do is like, first off, you need to know the rules to break the rules, because otherwise, you're just you're just, you know, going in circles. And second constraint is really important for creativity, a lot of people think that you need to like a never ending source of supply and time and resources. But actually, when you're limited, that's when you get your most creative. So what I would say is that when I come down to it, I really the best way that I get most creative when it comes to coming up with this stuff is thinking of one specific person, or maybe we could give myself in the past, and really drilling into like, what is going on in their brain right now. Like, where are they? Where do they want to be? How does it world look from their eyes and thinking to myself? How could I solve that with what I have in my fingertips? because creativity is kind of an equation, when you think about it. Like I just said, Okay, I want to run webinars, I want them to be interviews. I don't want that to be like every other interview out there, because that's boring and a waste of everybody's time. So how do I get it to be unique? Well, I make it unstructured, I add an alcohol, because that's where everybody gets a little bit goofy. And they like, relax, because interviews are stressful. So I was like, Okay, how do I solve the problem of people relaxing online, when they've just talking to a stranger? So adding that sweet alcohol? And then yeah, and then I was like, Okay, great, well, then I'll just put all of these components together, I can do it online. So it has to be the webinar. And then I'll go and launch that. And that's how I approach it is I just take the different components of the problem and the different aspects of it, turn it into parameters to create the solution that allows me to create something new. And the more specific I can get about the person, I'm doing it for the person I want to include. I feel like the more creative I get the things that have been most creative, I've been the ones that have been around a specific person and their situation, their pain points, you know, what they're trying to achieve. And that's where I really my brain sparks, because it's a problem solving brain. So anything that I can get really specific with and get specific data around, then I can solve but if it's too generic, then I just, I stall.
Emily Thompson 17:46
I love that this is an exact exercise that I do or I used to at least do with my with my indie typography clients was making them literally write out like this dream customer avatar like this one person, like, what is their name? How old? Are they? What do they do? What are their hobbies? Where do they grocery shop, like getting so specific with those details. And it can either be someone you know, for real, or a combination of a couple people or something you totally make up and then solve their problem. Every email that you write, write it to that person. And whenever you do that, whenever you give yourself those constraints, you gave yourself so much more clarity around how it is that you can serve that person and anyone who has pain points that are similar to that person. I think that's a really powerful exercise for anyone to do if you're wanting to create something that solves a problem.
Halley Gray 18:32
Yeah, agreed. And that's brilliant.
Kathleen Shannon 18:34
All right, so one more question around drunk webinars. And then I want to talk about bringing this vibe into our sales pages and all of our launches and all the things but with drunk webinars, I think that whenever we do something, even if it's not as scandalous as alcohol might be, there is this sort of vulnerability around paving your own way. And there's this fear that comes from being the person ahead of the pack, right? So specifically with drunk webinars, like any point where you like, oh, man, this might make some people mad. I mean, I've had people stop listening to being boss whenever I mentioned having a drink before a photoshoot, and that's just like one glass. So at any point, were you like, Oh my God, this could really alienate some people or piss some people off did it piss anyone off? Like what what has been your experience with that and like kind of just leaning into that that risky feeling of it? Well,
Emily Thompson 19:29
and I think like being creative in a way that to some people can be seen as taboo, I think is like the important thing there where you're thinking so outside the box that you could piss someone off.
Halley Gray 19:43
Well, I find that people get most upset with me when it comes to my swearing and the drinking and drink webinars. And so I have had guests on who haven't drunk drink, drank drunk, because drink I'm sober, I promise but The thing is, is that I mean, when I was in college, I never drank, I was always the sober person walking people home or giving them a ride home. And so the alcohol isn't the focus about making alcohol cool. The alcohol is the focus of being like, we're just being ourselves right now, we are not doing anything special, we are just being 100% ourselves. And so there are people who are upset because they're like, I don't drink, I don't think he should promote drinking. And I'm like, well, that's fine. I don't think you have to drink. But we are going to go and relax and talk like we talk usually without any filters. And that's the point of this experience. So if you want to drink water, I'm 100% behind you, if you want to have a glass of red, go for it, I'm not going to judge you if you don't want to do it. But don't come over here and start judging me because this is the point of it is to be yourself, and to see someone in a relaxed and uninhibited light. So
Emily Thompson 20:48
I love that. So it's about. So really, it's about being so clear about your intentions that any sort of retort can be easily brushed off, and not like brushed off. And actually I don't care brushed out in whatever way you need to. I think that's a really powerful thing, like so many people. So many people do things and then fear standing up for it. I think if you're going to do something, be willing to stand up for it or don't do it. I think that's just such an important part of being boss and putting yourself out there and creating something that hasn't been created before. You have to believe in it or don't bother, or they stand by it.
Halley Gray 21:25
Sometimes it could be hard to believe in it when you get so many negative emails, because people who love it, they love it. So they don't bother telling you that they love it. So everyone who has a problem with it, let's you know. And so in the face of all this peer pressure or social pressure to conform, and to just shut up and talk, you know, talk politely and drink water. Especially I feel like and I don't know if this is true, but I feel like for a woman it's definitely like twice as much pressure. Because, you know, I swear like a sailor. But if you have somebody like Gary Vee who's swearing, that's why people go and watch him, you know, and I don't imagine he's getting as many emails as I am about being like, Hey, don't swear, that's not how you do it online. And like, I'll tell you the fucking rules for doing online, I swear, because that's the way I want to do it. And that's how everybody who follows me wants me to do it. So if you don't like a salty sailor, keeps keep moving. So hey, man. Yeah,
Emily Thompson 22:15
I agree with that.
Kathleen Shannon 22:17
Okay, let's start bringing some of this salty sales pages. So obviously, there's these promotional campaigns. And you know, even as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about stuff like hashtag campaigns, for example. Okay, let's just case study this out, like, what would you say to someone? Me? I see everyone doing hashtag campaigns. And that's really cool. But I don't want to do a hashtag campaign like everybody else, like, what would your starting point there be?
Halley Gray 22:47
Well, I would go back to what I was talking about, which is that, who are you actually trying to reach? And do they actually take a look at hashtags? Because if they're not, then that's an easy one to like, scratch off your list and be like, no, don't need to worry about that. Because if they never follow hashtag campaign, you don't need to do it. And it's a waste of your time. But what I would say is that like that one person is going to dedicate like, that's what you should be dedicating your whole marketing campaign and plan around, and how you want to approach it. So if they're not in hashtags, I'd ask Where else are they? And so when it comes to that, that's really scary for a lot of people for you know, us three, we've been doing it for ages. And I think that's why our businesses move forward so much. But I would say first off, qualify who you're trying to actually hit and, you know, get their attention from, and then move forward. So yeah, so if the person was actually using hashtag campaigns, and I'd be like, Okay, great, then which ones have they interacted with the most? Like? What are they dealing with, that we can kind of pinpoint with a hashtag that would get them and grab them by the coho? Nice, you know, like, Where could we get them that other people are just kind of hitting them over and over again with and pummeling them with the same information because that's going to be our advantage for, you know, quick marketing or agile marketing.
Kathleen Shannon 23:58
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Halley Gray 25:30
So the sales pages I use have the capacity to turn people who are strangers into buyers or clients pretty much from like going from Twitter to your sales page. And that's unusual, because people don't really want to give you they don't want to give you their money if they've never met you before. So what I find with most sales pages is people try to convince you on a sales page that you should be buying something and that is literally the wrong way that you should be approaching it. Because once someone's hit your sales page, they want to buy it. So that's a whole different conversation that you should be having. It's like, you know, it's sales pages are a place for you to say like this is right for you, if you hit these, you know, parameters, and this is what's going to happen once you give me your money. And this is what we're going to accomplish. And this is how you should get excited. And this is what you should expect. And here's how you pay me. And a lot of people try us on to be like, if you need this, then you're probably in the right place. And so that sort of passive language and tone ends up creating a very ambiguous place, which makes people just walk away. Whereas if you're on your sales page being like, this is for you, I know this is for you. Because you're the person that I wrote this specifically for then that person everybody, like that person is gonna be like, you're right, that is for me. And so it makes it very easy for them to say yes, I want to be a part of it or no, I need to wait on it or no, I need to walk away. So, yeah, so sales pages from the perspective, I find that they need to be shorter than most people have out there. I find videos. Hey, man, thank you. Yeah, right. Don't make me read a novel just to figure out how I give you my money. This isn't some sort of weird puzzle.
Emily Thompson 27:04
It's like a seek and find I'm gonna start like, like, hiding like little kittens and like weird shit in there. And then give them a list of where to go find them.
Unknown Speaker 27:12
I don't know what else now is
Emily Thompson 27:13
that safe for now? That's
Kathleen Shannon 27:15
some innovation right there, right?
Emily Thompson 27:18
Still that idea. I'm going like circa 1994 highlights on you guys. It's gonna be amazing.
Unknown Speaker 27:25
Love My life.
Kathleen Shannon 27:26
It's still a highlight reel. But I love that shift in perspective of they're already there to buy. And I think that's the thing that's I see so many attitudes that hold creative entrepreneurs back and one of them is almost apologizing, like reading sales pages that feel apologetic, like, I know you're here. And I'm sorry for taking up space. And I'm sorry that I want your money. But maybe, and I say this like mockingly I this is something I go through. I've been through it. I've been through these feelings. So I know it so well, because I've been there. So I love even just that simple shift of going from being apologetic to being really confident that they're already there to buy, they just need you to get them to click the button by and how do you do that?
Halley Gray 28:15
So how do you do that? First off, there's so many things I could rant about with sales pages. So I'll try to keep the ranting face down because I'm clearly already getting banged up a little bit. Yes, definitely. And when it comes to your sales page is your salesperson. So even if you're not confident in your offer, your salesperson can be confident in your offer because you're setting them up to sound confident. So there's like linguistic cues when it comes to the words you choose and the verbs you choose and how you structure your sentences and how you structure your sales pages that make you seem confident and then make you seem passive, which passive equals weak. Okay? So like what, okay, so anything where you're like you will in the future, that's passive language, okay, you're making it creating an actual, like temporal distance between the person and what you're talking to them to. So that seems like a disconnect. And it makes it seem less real and less competent. If you use anything passively. So if you're a business owner, that's passive, you should know they're a business owner or not, that's not confident that's very much like qualifying and you shouldn't be qualifying them on your sales page. In terms of like using if you're a business owner, if you're a woman or whatever. Your language should always be active language and it should always be focused on the reader because that's what you're wanting to look at. So it should be very strong language in terms of linguistics, and it should always be focused on your reader so it should always be used not there should be no eyes in there unless it's like the very quick about blurb it also in terms of confidence should have very short testimonials backing up your results like we just launched be booked out. And literally the testimonials are just people's faces next to me like I am booked out for 12 months, I am booked out for six months. They don't even know the life story of that person. They just need to know that they're getting the results and like to check that they're real. So a lot of people spend a lot of time filling up their sales page with unnecessary testimonials, unnecessary language and they just keep adding more words than to try and make it seem like it's more legit. But it actually just makes people be like this is a massive tsunami of words, I'm going to walk away. So that's it. Also being very clear about your price is a confidence thing. So having a very big price, a very big price button and being like, buy this is a confidence, linguistic cue. And then making sure that you have, again, just very clear language being like, this is what you will get from it, this is what's going to happen. It's very passive. And very, so the reason why passive and weak is an important on sales pages is because you need to create trust, immediately from the first first sentence you have. You create trust by using active confident language. And by being bossy, basically. So what you want to do is make sure that you're getting rid of all that other stuff, so that when it comes to someone coming on your sales page, you're like, Oh, she knows her shit. And she knows that she can, she can help me because I can follow her lead. But if you're taking the backfoot and being passive and being unsure or uncertain, or trying to please everybody, by being, you know, compromising in your opinions on a sales page, you're not going to attract anybody, because you're going to come off as as uncertain and to Yeah, just uncertain and not experienced, and you need to be experienced, and you need to show that experience in your sales page.
Emily Thompson 31:15
If you were to request that someone get their sales page read by someone else before it goes live, who should that person be? And what should they be looking for?
Halley Gray 31:28
If you're going to have someone read it, I mean, ideally, I would want to read it, so I can make sure that you're okay. But
Emily Thompson 31:34
everyone send it to Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 31:37
And now my project manager will be like,
Unknown Speaker 31:39
why did you do that.
Halley Gray 31:44
So what I would say is get someone who you actually want like the best trick or hack for this online is to put it in a group where you know, your ideal client is hanging out and say like, Hey, guys, can I just get your feedback on this like, as from a sales page perspective, and they take all the feedback from the person who's closest to your ideal client, on board and all the other stuff, let it go. Because that's what's going to throw you astray. You don't want people all the strangers of the internet telling you what they think. Because that's, as we all know, that's a clusterfuck. So basically, what you want to do is make sure that you're good at putting it in a non non intimidating manner, in front of that person that you want to buy, and getting their honest feedback on it. And then you're going to update it to that. But basically, you're looking for big buttons, make it easy for them to buy, make it easy for them to know what they're going to get into. Make it clear about what you're offering what you're selling by the third paragraph, make it very clear what you're, you know, giving them in exchange for their money, make the results clear. So it's about like making sure you're being really clear about the whole process about the whole thing, you're selling them about the whole value, and then making it really easy to get their money. So I actually have a personal war waged against everyone who has imagined their sales pages. I'm sorry, ladies, if this is you. But when you ask somebody I say like, imagine your life on a tropical island. It's like, I can't fucking do that. Because I'm not on a tropical island. And I probably haven't been there yet, because you're telling me about a result I have yet to accomplish. So how am I supposed to imagine something that I've never done before? And now you're making the client or the reader be like, Oh, that's hard. I can't do that. And so when you make a sales page, hard to use, read and digest, you make it hard for them to give you their money. And so that's something that would be like, Is there any of this clear? Do you have to like did any of your did your forehead ever wrinkle while you're reading the sales page? Because the forehead wrinkle test is definitely the one that you want to be looking out for.
Emily Thompson 33:29
There's gonna be a whole slew of forehead wrinkle quizzes on sales pages coming up, I'm sure.
Kathleen Shannon 33:36
I have some questions, because earlier we were talking about marketing strategies that are innovative and unique. And out of the box. It sounds like whenever it comes to sales pages, though, you need to say what you mean with authority without question. And that may be there is a little bit of a template to follow. That is tried and true. So his sales pitch like I'm just trying to, what I'm really trying to ask here is sales pages are not a place to necessarily be clever, or how do you start to inject some of that cleverness or uniqueness or authenticity, for lack of better word into your sales page. So
Halley Gray 34:13
I find that creativity and marketing and sales pages are all kind of formulaic, once you figure out the equation that you need to use, then you can pop in different elements, and then you can get creative with it and make it like your own. So it's the same way that you can have like every meal has carbs and fat and protein in it. But what that looks like is different for everyone. So depending on what you use,
Emily Thompson 34:34
it's like the best analogy ever, by the way. Hi, fi
Halley Gray 34:40
it's so what I would say is you're right, it sounds like you know, one's one's more organic, and the other one's more cultivated. But actually, for a lot of this, it's always going to have steps it's always going to have a formula, you know, no matter what you put in, you're gonna have a different result. So it's going to be more uniquely new. But yeah, so sales pages definitely have a method and a strategy and a structure because the structure for human brains and how they digest information is actually very logical, you know, when it comes to how we want it broken down like some people want, maybe it switched a little bit, but the overall content that you're providing is required for the human brain to feel comfortable moving forward. So the words you use the person you target the imagery, you use the you know, the benefits you have, all of that will be different based on who you are, what you're offering, who you're offering it for, but the structure will be the same. Because once you have a structure that works, it usually will work on repeat for multiple people, then you know that you don't need to mess with that structure, you just need to experiment with what's inside of it.
Kathleen Shannon 35:38
Yeah. So that brings us back to finding that creativity in constraints. And this is why I personally love having mentors or buying programs that help give me some structure and guidance, and then having fun within that guidance, and maybe breaking the rules sometimes to see like, I have a gut feeling that maybe it would work better if I just did something a little different here, you know, even if it's outside of that structure, and then it kind of goes to Emily's philosophy of testing and changing and experimenting, testing a hypothesis to see what works, but you're only changing kind of like one variable at a time, rather than just, I mean, otherwise, it feels like you're shooting arrows at moving targets in the dark all the time.
Emily Thompson 36:21
Yeah, I think it's really important to know, this idea of taking creative license with the things that you learn. I mean, I feel so often you can, you know, you can look at some people's websites or sales pages and tell exactly what program they went into that got them to this result. But where you find true success is where you take those models as, as suggestions or guidelines, and then you take creative license to make them your own. That's where the magic happens.
Kathleen Shannon 36:52
You know, one thing I really like doing whenever I'm going through learning these things, is I like to think, okay, from scratch, here's probably what I would have done and really writing that out. Because there are some good things in that. And then looking at the guidance, or what a mentor or what a program might tell me to do, and see where the overlaps and where are the disconnects? And what can i tweak to my original plan? Or what can I hook in from my original plan into this formula? And I think that's the way that I really like to come up with things that are I mean, researched and proven and work with my own creative spin on it. That makes sense. That's good.
Halley Gray 37:29
I mean, everything needs a first draft, right? So there's no, why not do a brain dump and come up with your own here, what you're saying that first, or what you're thinking first, and then finding a way to make it work inside of a structure you want to test. Because I think that's true. I mean, I think you need to trust the method. And you know, follow it and do the process so that you can test it to see if it works for you. But at the same time, you also need to make sure that you're being very honest about you and your business. Because, you know, a lot of times people just start like, tell me what to do. And it's like, well, you need to know who you're selling to first. So that's something that I can't do for you, that's your own unique step. So you can't ignore that data, because that's a massive amount of data that you have existing. So you do need to tap into that first and then apply it to a new process or method.
Emily Thompson 38:09
And I'd like to say a really good like test to see if you've targeted and enough if you say that your dream customer is between the ages of 18 and 55. You're not there? No.
Unknown Speaker 38:22
Yes, that's so that's so preach it preach it.
Emily Thompson 38:27
The way you mark it as someone who's like 20 is very different than the way you market someone who's 30 or 40, or 50. And so whenever you have that sort of broad like I'm for everyone sort of mindset, you're speaking to no one in particular. So no one can see themselves in that place. And that's good test yourself, go back and look at all your stuff. And if you're saying you have a range greater than, like 10 years, you have not targeted in enough.
Kathleen Shannon 38:54
Okay, I feel like dream client has come up in
Unknown Speaker 38:58
Kathleen Shannon 38:59
quick, because one of the questions that I get the most and I mean, we all know this, like we all know that we need to find a specific person. And I really like thinking about my favorite three clients I've ever worked with and looking at what they have in common, and really digging into who they are. And like Emily said, where they shop, what they're what they're all about. And even really, through the braid method, we're looking at specific words they're using, like that's what we really grab on to is like tone and words. But I'm curious, because it seems to be a question that a lot of aspiring creative entrepreneurs ask or, or creative entrepreneurs who are at the very beginning of their path, or maybe transitioning into a new industry, who haven't had dream client experience? How would you tell them to identify very specifically who their dream client is and how do they start to collect data or information on that person that they've never worked with? It's almost like the Imagine you're on a tropical island that Imagine you're working with a giant dream client and they're like, well, I've never heard That experience
Halley Gray 40:00
Exactly. And so what I would say is most people get it wrong, because they try to come up with their business, they try to come up with their packages, they try to come up with all of this stuff, the sales pages, everything, and then they try to fit that in the ideal client and at the end, and that's never gonna work, right, because that doesn't, that's, that's not feasible. So they're usually getting the process wrong, where they're like, Oh, I'm gonna make all this stuff happen. And then I'm just going to find someone to buy it as a hardest way for you to do a business and for you to market yourself and for you to sell yourself, like sell your stuff. So what you really need to be doing is say, Okay, I'm gonna go on a Facebook group of people that are awesome. Cough, being boss, cough, and then go in there, start talking to people start seeing how you could help people in that Facebook group. And say, like, Awesome, cool. Alright, so I know that Samantha random name generated, is struggling to like, figure out how she should get her design business off the ground. And by specifically getting it off the ground, she's having trouble figuring out, like, what social media platform she should be promoting on. And so by looking at specific problems, specific people around you have that allows you to create a solution that they actually want. So what I would say is go into a Facebook group, again, the being boss on is awesome. And then I want you to go and pick one person that you feel like you can help or start talking to people, and then pick one person and then build up your marketing, your sales, your products, your services around that, because that's going to allow you the ability, again, it's a constraint, it's a constraint to pick one person and build this stuff around it. But that allows you to get more specific that allows you to create better products and services that allows you to basically accelerate your growth by being constrained in that way. So I highly recommend it.
Kathleen Shannon 41:38
I can also see kind of like ping ponging this a little bit back and forth, like, okay, you have an idea of something that you want to do or something that you want to be known for, or what you're best at, or your skill set. Let's say you're a graphic designer. And then what you're really wanting to do is niche down or tailor your offering, or even just the way that you attract your dream customers with your content, which is my favorite, favorite way to do it. By then going into the Facebook group, seeing what the specific problems are, and how do those specific problems. How can you position yourself like what you're already offering to those specific problems, so I can see it kind of being a little chicken egg or, or just ping ponging back and forth and testing out what you have to offer against the positioning that speaks directly to that dream customer.
Emily Thompson 42:23
Well, and I think this is like long term finessing. I mean, even things like clubhouse and the conversations we have, like we see who's been in there, we see you've we've who we've who we have created it for who's in there who's loving it. And so we started with dream customer, we created the thing, we went back to dream customer, we tweaked the thing, we went back to drink customer and tweak the thing again. And so it becomes like this endless cycle of having those conversations and then serving and whatever way. And I'm so sorry, because firetruck
Halley Gray 42:54
just I think that evolving is a super important important part of every business. And I think you're right like it isn't ping pong, it is a I'll start here with this first step in this first bit, and then I will move forward with this and then I'll go back and reassess it. And I think the successful businesses keep reassessing and evolving their ideal client, their products, their services, how they provide them how they sell them. And I think that's why you ladies are so successful, because you know, most people, they're like, Oh, I figured it out, I'm done. And that's where businesses die. So I think when one person like when a business owner is like, oh, I've got this shit sorted 100% that's when you know, things are going bad. Because you should be constantly evolving and re you know, re evaluating and making sure that you are on the right track and finding out if you could provide the same services or products better or target and more with one of them. So I just think for beginners, most of them try to go too generic and try to give themselves away too much license or freedom. And really where they should be doing is constraining to one person and learning how to solve one person's problems before moving on to a larger scale. I
Kathleen Shannon 43:52
love it. Amen. Because it's just one person at a time. Like, if that's the thing that I could tell a new creative is that you just need that very first customer. You don't need hundreds, you don't even need to maybe entirely book yourself out. You just need that first person that you can best help. And then beyond that, you can see what worked, what didn't work, how do you tweak your positioning? How do you tweak your offering? And then how do you target more people either like that one person or completely not like that one person.
Halley Gray 44:24
Right? Exactly. So it just depends on your your marketing model. If you're targeting the same person for three different solutions, you would still talk to them about those three different solutions differently. Select three different packages three different offers three different products, or you take that one thing that you're offering and then you find three other types of people for their ideal clients that you want to offer that to so that you can expand it and increase its reach and help it so it's a lot of like design. You might have design clients who targets designer, sorry design designers to target coaches vas, you know, writers, and then you might have a copywriter that helps somebody with their about page their sales page, their full website, so It's very much a different structure and model for all those different packages that you can have.
Kathleen Shannon 45:06
Okay, I've got a question. How can we book out our entire schedule? So you went got nine new clients in 72 hours? How did that work? Tell us about that. So
Halley Gray 45:18
I love launching. And that was one of the first things that I got giddy about. Yeah, I love launch. It's amazing.
Emily Thompson 45:23
My favorite things ever. It's
Halley Gray 45:26
so much fun. It's like amazing, like money challenge where you're like, I'm gonna put this out there and see if the internet will buy it. And it's like, yes, they will buy it once you figure it out. So yeah, so I love watching. And that's why I talk so loud when I'm talking about it. But basically, yeah, so I was like, Alright, fuck it, I'm gonna, I need new clients, I'm going to try something out, I'm going to put this, this limited edition package together, I'm going to sell it for 72 hours. And my goal is to get 10, I got 10. But then she pulled out. And so we got nine new clients and in the space of 72 hours. And the thing is, is that at the time, everybody's telling me that wanting to two weeks, at least, you know, two weeks to build up maybe even two weeks to launch it or for, you know, a full month, or like at least two weeks to like put it out there and get people to buy. And I was like, You know what, fuck it, I'm gonna do it for three days. Because if I've seen anything, I've seen that people are really inspired to take action when you give them a very small amount of time to do it. So it's like a cat at the door, if you leave the like, if leave the door open for that cat, he's just gonna stand there in the middle for ages, because that's what cats do. Same thing with people, you got to either force them to go in or out, in or out. So that's what the 72 hour thing was about. And in terms of structure, it was like, Alright, the first day, I want to send them an email, introducing this thing, educating them exciting them about it. But I sent it to my very tiny newsletter list. I had like 50 people, guys, which is an insane amount of conversion, if you think about it. So we had a very small amount of people, I introduced it to them, I started promoting it on social media, I started counting down right away and being like, you need to sign up now. And then I moved into the next day, which was a webinar that was relevant. And it was really rough. And I'm talking like really rough that would allow me to talk to people about what we were going to accomplish after they had done it. So I was like, Okay, great. Here's what we're going to work on together. But here's what you need to know that once we're done, you can work on it this way. So I was going to provide the first step when they worked with me. And then I was doing this webinar about the second step after they worked with me. And then I promoted that to my newsletter kept counting down on social media and telling people about it. Quick question.
Kathleen Shannon 47:27
So your webinar, I need a little bit of clarification here. Was your webinar, like a hard sell? This is the thing I'm offering and simply explaining that. Okay, so it's still an informational webinar 100% value.
Halley Gray 47:40
Okay, yeah, yeah, it was just helping people understand what happened after we work together and providing more value. And then like condensed highly, because webinars are amazing. And this was like a webinar with me reading off of a workbook, this is not fancy shit at all. So it was just me talking to people. And there's probably 10 people on the webinar. And not all of them were clients at all or future clients. And just like educating them about like, Hey, this is what you're going to do after we work together. If you want to work together, this is what you will accomplish. So this is what you need to do to complete the cycle. And then the next day, I finished it up, I wrapped it up and I said, Hey, you know this is closing up, if you need to get in here, get in here. Now, we got all 10 of the clients that were looking to get. And as per most things in life, one of them had to pull out. But we got the full amount of sales we needed in 72 hours. And so not only was that super exciting, because business can sometimes be a bit boring if you don't keep you know, jazzing things up and moving them forward. But it was also really validating to see like, yeah, watching can be sure it can be effective, you can get new clients like that. So why not push yourself in terms of your business do that. So it was really I mean, launching for life. I love it.
Emily Thompson 48:48
Can Can we get like a ballpark price point? Yes. Like, what it was that you were able to book in this way?
Halley Gray 48:57
Yeah, totally. So it was for a one hour session of teaching them identifying their future revenue streams and figuring out how they were going to build them out. And then I think I called it the momentum package. I was just like when I had a lot of Picard references, a lot of make it goes away. I'm a nerd. So I think it was $200. But for a list of 50 people who didn't really know me, I hadn't done any sort of pre pre selling or any sort of warming them up. I was like, bam, 72 hours you want it, you get it. And then it was closed and we are good to go. So
Kathleen Shannon 49:31
have you replicated this process with a higher price point or like a longer term engagement or even a digital product?
Halley Gray 49:38
Yeah, I did actually last year I did it for a $9,000 price point and I got two clients in and I only actually did half the sequence. I did two days. And I didn't do a webinar and I got two clients, we got 12 applications, but we took two clients on for the $9,000 price point each so is 18k generated in point you know, like 36 hours. Nice. Yeah,
Emily Thompson 50:02
it's pretty great.
Unknown Speaker 50:02
Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. I love
Emily Thompson 50:04
it. So what have you found is like the magic around such a small launch sequence, because again, like, two weeks is normal, it gives people time to read and think and adjust and digest and all the things but like, what's the magic of the short one?
Halley Gray 50:22
The short one is not only like really fast paced and exciting, but it also is only works if you're very specific about who you're helping. So again, you cannot be generic. I think that's why some launches are longer term, because they're going generic with it, and they're like, I'm going to help everybody. And it's like, well, it's gonna take you a very long time then to sell anybody into this. So they need more time. Whereas specifics, like every time I sat down to the sales page, I was like, Okay, I know who I'm going to help. I know who I'm writing the sales page, for, I know who I'm creating this package for, I know what we're going to accomplish. And I know how we're going to move forward. And so that was really great. Because even though we had like we could have taken on more clients in that launch, I was like, they're not gonna be able to get the results they need. So being able to pull that plug and say, like, yeah, money is great. But if you don't get the results you want from this, then we're both going to be fucked. Because you need results. I need you to get results. So I'm not gonna let you come in. So it worked out really well in that term, or in that aspect of it. But um, yeah, it's basically getting really specific about who it's for. Because that's how you get that fast action moving forward. Getting people in.
Emily Thompson 51:29
Love that makes sense.
Kathleen Shannon 51:32
All right. Let's go ahead and wrap this up. Holly, where can our listeners learn more about
Halley Gray 51:38
you? Over at Yvonne succeed? Calm? That is where I hang out primarily. And yeah. And we will have to tell
Unknown Speaker 51:45
us a little bit. Tell us a little bit about be booked out. Okay, cool.
Halley Gray 51:49
So we actually just finished up lunch, which, if you're listening to this in the future, it's probably way in the past, but Amazon servers went down yesterday, which is one thing I don't like about lodging.
Emily Thompson 52:02
Oh, that's the bar some fat guy on his bed?
Halley Gray 52:11
Yeah, we don't want to we don't want to stereotype but we think it might be one of the two. I definitely think it is anyways. Yeah, so be booked out. We just closed up our program. It's a live program for eight weeks where we teach designers and virtual assistants and coaches how to structure their business, and their packaging and their marketing so that they get clients in, because a lot of people get clients in and then they lose them because they haven't trained them right. Or they don't know how to keep people coming in. And so I teach them how to like fill up a waitlist to make sure that waitlist can stay around for six months, and then book them back in with a couple of emails. So yeah, that's where we're going. And it's an amazing group of people, which is pretty cool. They're so smart. But as you know, it can't be smart everything. So they need the marketing help. And that's what I help them with.
Emily Thompson 52:57
I love that. And I also love the whole concept of your evolve and succeed business and this idea that like to grow as a business owner, you have to continually evolve, you have to learn new things, you have to try new things, you have to launch new things you have to have to keep doing. So I think that you've tapped into something there that at least I truly believe in. I love it.
Kathleen Shannon 53:22
All right, one more, what makes you feel most boss
Halley Gray 53:26
having a project manager Actually, I've had a lot of VA in the past and I am not capable of taking care of a VA. I'm like a puppy. I just don't know how to, you know, treat it right. So we're having a project manager and telling me like, Hey, don't do that. And I'm like, Yeah, okay, that makes me feel most boss because having someone in there who's helping me who has the same vision as me allows me to feel like I'm actually part of something bigger than myself. Whereas when you're doing it by yourself, it can feel lonely sometimes. But that's just where I'm at now, when I first started having an inbox full of client emails and made me feel super boss, but now it's having a project manager board.
Emily Thompson 54:02
Love that good to growing your team. I love it. It's almost like having a boss makes you feel boss.
Halley Gray 54:07
Yeah. I know what it's so weird. But that's true. Because it's like, Hey, now that I know what the vision is, it doesn't need I don't need to be the one being like, Hey, you need to do this on time, which made me feel not like the boss. It made me feel like a really bad manager. And so having a project manager who's like, Hey, you need to do this, because you had this vision that I'm helping you implement to me makes me feel like a boss. Whereas before I just felt like Yeah, I just felt like oh, this
Kathleen Shannon 54:37
Holly, thanks for joining us. It was so fun to reconnect in a really smart way like you were just so smart. And I had no idea because first time we were also drunk.
Emily Thompson 54:52
My Thank you Is thank you for knowing how to party.
Unknown Speaker 54:56
For sure. I love the party for profit kind of two. I love That,
Emily Thompson 55:00
Kathleen Shannon 55:04
This episode of being boss was brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting. Try it for free by going to fresh books comm slash being boss, and a special shout out to Meet Edgar. You can try them at meet edgar.com slash being boss. Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Articles show notes and downloads at WWW dot being boss club.
Emily Thompson 55:28
If you're a creative entrepreneur, Freelancer or small business owner who is ready to take your goals to the next level, check out the being boss clubhouse, a two day online retreat followed by a year of community support, monthly masterclasses book club secret episodes and optional in person retreats. Find more at www dot being boss club slash clubhouse.
Kathleen Shannon 55:52
Thank you so much to our team and sponsors who make being boss possible our sound engineer and web developer Corey winter. Our editorial director and content manager Caitlin brain, our community manager and social media director Sharon lukey and are being countered David Austin, with support from braid creative and indicia biography.
Emily Thompson 56:10
Do the work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.