Brooke Castillo 0:00
Okay, so let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Why did you guys start your podcast
Emily Thompson 0:04
to create something for fun?
Brooke Castillo 0:06
Okay? Listen, this is everything this is that if you guys listen to nothing else on this podcast, but this this is this is the secret to the universe, if you're doing something because you enjoy doing or not enjoy doing it, right, if you're trying to make a business out of it, the only reason to do anything is because of how it will serve your customer period. Right. So if you're thinking about a podcast, you got to think I, the reason I started a podcast is because I exactly I wanted to create some value for my customer, I wanted them to be able to listen to it and change their lives. If you're an artist. This is I was just coaching an artist about this. And she was saying, I just love to paint and I said you have to if that's great, just paint. But if you want to make a business about it, you have to think about that customer and what they're going to love. It's not always and I think that's one thing that life coaching gets like a bad rap about that we're all just self indulgent, that all we do is think about what we want to do all the time. And you can't just think about what you want to do all the time. If you want to have a business you have to think about relentlessly serving your customers. All I think about all day is how can I help them? How can I help them? How can I help them? How can I serve them? That is how you build a business and you want to create something that's and that's a huge piece of it, right? being creative, but you can't just be creative for creative sake. You have to be creative because you know someone else will be served and benefited by it.
Kathleen Shannon 1:30
Hello, and welcome to being boss, a podcast for creative
Emily Thompson 1:34
entrepreneurs. I'm Emily Thompson.
Brooke Castillo 1:37
And I'm Kathleen Shannon. I'm Brooke Castillo and I'm being boss.
Emily Thompson 1:46
Today we're talking about building a customer focused business not being okay with just doing what's easy, and so much more with Master life coach Brooke Castillo. As always, you can find all the tools books and links we referenced on the show notes at WWW dot being boss club.
Kathleen Shannon 2:03
Alright bosses, I hope the IRS isn't listening to this because I have a confession to make. I am really good at tracking my expenses, but I'm not the best at saving my receipts. I know it's 2017 and we still need printed receipts. To get this fresh books cloud accounting has made it easy. You can simply photograph your receipts with your phone, attach them to your expense, and be 100% legit. freshbooks has a lot of features for tracking your expenses including tax friendly categories multicurrency expenses and easy to read categorization. Try fresh books cloud accounting for free by going to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section.
Emily Thompson 2:51
Brooke Castillo is passionate about living as an example of what is possible. She's a master life coach providing teaching coaching and training through her podcast The Life Coach School podcast, life coach training in the Life Coach School and offers a coaching and her self coaching scholars membership program. And in addition to all that coaching Brooke is an author and seriously boss businesswoman.
Kathleen Shannon 3:16
Brooke, thanks for hanging out with us.
Brooke Castillo 3:20
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here. I can't believe it's been two years.
Kathleen Shannon 3:23
Two years ridiculous. And since we last chatted, I feel like you've just kind of taken over the world. I feel like the whole world has changed. The whole world has changed in two years. It really genuinely has your face included. Dear listeners, so we were joking before we started recording about all the Botox I've had in my forehead. Well, I think it started
Emily Thompson 3:51
with your dreads being gone. Yeah. Then ended with your Botox being present. So great. Right, it has it has been two years, I was just thinking, just thinking about how you know, two years ago would we have thought that we would be here now where you know, you were here for Episode 25. You were one of our one of our first interviews, you're within the first couple of people that we chatted with on the podcast and Kathleen and I at that point, this was just going to be a fun side project that you know we did and are like off hours or whatever. Now it's basically a full time gig from but both of us and you are always busting it out. But I love what Kathleen just said about the world being so different. Where would we have thought then not only that we would be here now but that we would all be right where we are now and I think probably not. It's pretty
Brooke Castillo 4:47
exciting. I'm trying to remember we talked about coaching a lot right? In our last episode two years
Emily Thompson 4:52
ago. We did Yeah, we did. We did. We talked about coaching and the thing I remember wanting to talk to you most about and then we dipped do a lot with you was at that point, especially Kathleen was all curious about how to expand your capacity for success. And that was the That was the question that we were asking everyone, whenever it came time to chat with you. That was the conversation that we had. And so I think what I told you worked very well, would you agree? Yes, I think so.
Brooke Castillo 5:24
We have all expanded into success quite beautifully, which is so fun, right? It's so fun to come back and be like, how this is one of my favorite things to do with people like y'all, like you get with people. And you're like, What's new? I haven't talked to you in two years. What's new? And you're like, Oh, my gosh, everything. Right? Because don't you get with some people and you ask them what's new? They're like, same all. Yeah. And they're really telling you the truth. like nothing's changed in their life in two years. Like we get together. We're like, Oh, my gosh, do we have like five hours to catch up? I love that. I love it.
Kathleen Shannon 5:57
And you know, what's funny about that is that from week to week, I feel like it's the same old, same old, so even my toddler the other day, he goes, what do we do, I have to go to daycare all of the days all of the time. And I said, Yes, this is how it works. Monday through Friday, you're going to daycare all of the time. This is how it works. And so I do feel like a little bit Groundhog Day ish from day to day just have like the routine of waking up getting to work, recording podcasts, writing some things designing something's picking up my kid dinner, bath time, bedtime routine, going to sleep and do over again. But then, whenever I look at really the past quarter, or the past six months, like all that routine has added up to big changes, and that we've really been moving the needle but one step at a time. And it never feels like a big change in the moment until you look back in hindsight,
Brooke Castillo 6:57
okay, but this is like one of the most important things you can teach any one, right? Because we have this idea that, oh, once we make a million dollars, oh, once we have 500 clients, then rainbows happen, you don't have to make dinner anymore, you're naturally thin, you don't wait, everything makes you happy. Like we do have this in our mind. And so even though you're so much more successful, now two years later, it really is just same old. Same old, same old thing. And I love that because then you have to ask yourself, and this is what I tell my students a lot is, okay, so if I'm still going to be there at this, like, epic level of success is still going to be me, and I'm still gonna have feelings, and some of them will be negative, and I'm still going to have anxiety and I'm still gonna get tired and all of that stuff, then what is the point of all of it? What would you say? I know you're the ones supposed to be answering the questions, but I asking them, but I'm curious. What would you guys say? If it is basically the same day with just a lot more success? What's the point?
Kathleen Shannon 8:05
And that's when I started believing in God. Right? And that's
Emily Thompson 8:09
where that's what I consider just not getting up in the morning. You're like, Yeah, what is the point? Right, I see. Here's my thing is I just don't think about that. Oh, interesting. Get up and do the thing and enjoy the ride along the way.
Kathleen Shannon 8:23
I think about what's the point every day, I also probably have more anxiety than Emily does. And you know, it's funny, Brooke, we were telling you that we're writing a book for being boss. And we have this ongoing joke of how many times can we mentioned the deathbed in our book, which is what is it that you're wanting to create that you'll be proud of on your deathbed. And for me, that's a lifetime full of memories, including the hustle that of what I'm building with Emily right now and what I'm building over at braid creative with my sister and our team over there, and then what I'm building with my family and the adventures that we're taking. And so for me, it's really the point is creating really beautiful memories. Not that I want to live in the past by any means, but just to feel like I've lived a life well lived
Brooke Castillo 9:09
totally. And here's the thing, if you're gonna, like the way that I describe is like half the time is pretty much ass. And it doesn't matter how much money you have doesn't matter how successful you know, and if you know that, that either way, you're gonna feel this way. It's not like you get to prevent it if you don't get successful, right. So either way, I'm like, I'd rather have some cash. Right? I'd rather make a contribution. I'd rather help a lot of people along the way. If it what it changes for me is the reason why to do it. Right. The reason why to do it isn't so I will be out of pain for the rest of my life because that's not going to work my friends. Then it becomes the reason to do it is exactly what you said. So at the end of the day, you can look back and say that was a wild adventure. That was amazing. I love that I did that versus like I felt terrible half the time. So I just didn't do anything.
Kathleen Shannon 10:03
And I think a lot about that, like, why are we here? What's the point question, I go real deep with it. And this is I was making a joke about and then that's whenever I discovered God, but there is truly the spiritual aspect to love. I feel like we're here in our human bodies, whether or not no matter what religious affiliation you are, or even if you're an atheist, I feel like we are in our human bodies to learn something, right. And that includes embracing the painful things that we couldn't, we couldn't learn without the physical experience of pain.
Brooke Castillo 10:36
Right. And so I think this belief system that we should cut, like, I talked to my students about this a lot. For some reason, we all have this like, underlying idea that it's supposed to be easier and better that we were supposed to have good parents that raised this perfectly, and then we're supposed to get the good job, we're supposed to be popular, and no one's ever supposed to bully us. And then we're supposed to make a good amount of money. And we're supposed to be great parents, which none of us are, right. And then we're supposed to die with, you know, a full heart. And that doesn't seem to happen. And then I question Okay, so maybe, just maybe it's not supposed to be that way. Right? Maybe there's going to be that struggle, and we might as well do what we can with it. So for me, that's the whole point of all of it. And I don't think here's the other thing, like when I come to you guys, and I'm like, hey, what have you done in two years? And you're like, so much. Where do we start? Like, that's so exciting to me? I don't think your life is better for for the world or whatever. Because of that, although, actually, it probably is right because think of all of the people that y'all have helped versus just I'd hope so. Not doing it, right. Yeah, pretty exciting. All right. What do you guys have for me? Did you want to say something, Emily, cuz we might let you speak now.
Emily Thompson 11:50
You guys, I'll start waving my finger at any moment. I need to jump in. So
Kathleen Shannon 11:56
Briggs, what's your Myers Briggs? Brock? I think I N TJ Does that sound right? Okay. Yeah. Sounds about right. Okay. Sorry, Emily. We're just gonna ask that question. Just let it live. You're like, Oh, I am tj. Okay, let's move on. What have What have you been up to in the past two years, Brooke, like, I feel like your podcast is always in the top 15, which we need to talk about? Because you know, I'm looking at those charts. Yes. I've never looked at them. But I'm glad to know mine's in the top two, you are consistently at the top. So I was wondering if you had any, like algorithm secrets?
Emily Thompson 12:36
going on? All I do is study algorithms. That's why look like an algorithm whisperer. It's gonna be a very important skill to have in the future, for sure. running off of algorithms
Kathleen Shannon 12:52
moving on, apparently, you're manifesting some top charting awesomeness. The secret to that is like amazing content. totally right. And you bring it every single time you've got your life coaching school, you've got self coaching scholars.
Brooke Castillo 13:10
Amazing. So can I just tell you guys really quickly why I did one of the reasons why I did self coaching scholars, it's like two reasons. So I run the Life Coach School where I train coaches right now, before I had the Life Coach School, I was focused on weight loss and working I wrote a book way back in the day called if I'm so smart, why can I lose weight and I was really focused on helping people lose weight. And as part of that, what happened was people lost all the weight. And then they're like, now what now I'm left with this life where I can't overeat my feelings. What do I do now? Man, I created the model, self coaching model and taught that that was my career for a while. And then I got so many people asking, like, how do I become a life coach? How do I do what you do? I want to learn the tools that you use. So that's why I started the Life Coach School and started training coaches. And I was various I'm am very successful with that company. Lots of people want to become life coaches, and I train life coaches. And I was started joining some masterminds and I was talking in groups with big masterminds, and a lot of what people what I heard people saying to me, and what a lot of my students would say to me, oh, one of the reasons why you can be successful is because you're selling a business product, right? You're selling a certification that then someone can go and turn into money. And I said, That is ridiculous. That is not why my business is successful. And I don't want to hear from anyone that you can't be a successful life coach, because I did that for five years and had a beautiful living doing that. But still, I kept hearing that and so one of the reasons why I was like, Alright, y'all, let me show you how this is done. This is how you create and sell a product to clients because and this is why I knew it would be so effective because our world needs some mental health help. desperately, desperately. If you think about what is the most important thing We could teach anyone and give anyone it is their mental health, I think it's more important than your physical health because it has such a direct effect on your physical health. Right. So I think that we are starving for it. And I think people are looking for it. And so I wanted to provide it. So I decided to do a membership site. And because and then the other reason why was because I had so much demand for my coaching, and not enough time to coach everybody, right, obviously, and most people can afford my price point, which is in the 10s of 1000s of dollars. So I decided to do scholars and coach in a way that I could really coach people directly but handle more volume through the certification, I mean, through the membership program. So that's what I'm doing. I'm doing self coaching scholars, and then I'm doing the certification. And it's been amazing. Love it.
Emily Thompson 15:56
This is one of the things that I've always admired most about you is that you, obviously are really fantastic at what you do in terms of being a coach. But you're also really great at the business side of it, you're really great at seeing the demand creating the thing that will serve us that demand. And, and this is a perfect example of like beautiful scalability, where you know how to serve. And now you can serve to a large amount of people. And I think that is so key whenever it comes to having an impact to make and making it in as impactful away as you can.
Brooke Castillo 16:33
Yeah, I think it's, oh, it's my turn. This is going to be so much fun for me to watch, guys, I am stoked about this.
Emily Thompson 16:43
Please continue whoever
Brooke Castillo 16:45
you go. Well, I just love your point there because I think that and it speaks to some of the ideas that you had presented me before the call that the things that you want to discuss, and one of them is my two loves in life are self help and business. And that's a magical combination. I get a lot of students and I know you guys might have a lot in your listening audience that really are in love with their art, which for me is the self help piece. And some people are in love with being creative. But how do you take that love of being what I call the technician part of your job and make money at it, you have to fall in love equally with the business and marketing piece of it. So yes, I would say that the people that I know that our coaches that are most successful are the ones that do both. And one of your questions was I'm just going to interview myself. So what is the questions that you had for me
Kathleen Shannon 17:43
make it so easy
Brooke Castillo 17:44
for? What are the questions that you had was? Do I think that the life coach market is becoming too saturated? And I think it's such a good question, because lots of people want to be life coaches. But here's the thing, I think there's a difference between getting certified as a coach, wanting to be a coach, and actually being a successful coach. So I don't think our market is saturated at all. In fact, I think y'all need to hurry up and get some marketing skills so we can serve more people for sure. I think a lot of people are getting trained and have a huge desire. But there's so many people that are missing that marketing piece. And well and I also have to say all
Emily Thompson 18:29
you get your finger out to you're more than welcome to who's a thing. Um, I think oh, of all the markets, I would love to see saturated, it would be life coaching. The people in the world who were wanting to help people be better people. Why can't we all be those people?
Kathleen Shannon 18:47
Yep. Except here's where I'm seeing like a little bit of a double edged sword here with this Sally's. Well, and this is where I want to have a conversation about it. Because I don't know how much of this is actually true. And how much of this is perception and how much of this is whatever. But the other day I was in a Facebook group and there was a woman in there that knew she wanted to be a creative entrepreneur. She's like, I know I've got it in me. Or to be an entrepreneur. She's like, I know I've got it in me to be an entrepreneur to work for myself to have the freedom and flexibility to make my own schedule and make my own rules. But I know that I don't want to become a coach. And the way that she said it was almost like that it just made alarms go off for me like it's coaching become the new like MLM and I know I'm gonna make some MLM people real upset whenever I say that. But is it it was just interesting. The way she said that like that coaching is this fallback, career choice, when in fact there are a lot of people putting a lot of effort into becoming the best coaches possible. So it just really rang some alarms for me like wow, has coaching gotten to that point and now Thought, is it becoming a saturated market where it's almost becoming devalued for what it is? Well, I
Brooke Castillo 20:07
think it's such a good question, because I think the issue with life coaching is that anyone can do it. Right, the barrier to calling yourself a life coach is zero, right? There's, anyone can do it. So I think when someone says, I don't want to become a life coach, if that's what they're referencing, it's just like everybody in anybody is calling themselves that, like, I actually have quite a few of my clients who have got received materials from me, within self coaching scholars have made huge changes in their life. And so they start feeling like, Hey, I'm going to help other people do this. And what I say to them is, listen, it's one thing to learn it from me and to have me coach you, it's a very different thing, to then become a properly trained coach that is able to actually help someone do it. But I do think it seems easy, like watching me do it. They're like, Oh, I could do that. It's kind of like writing a book, right? Oh, I could put some words on paper. Right. But actually, anyone can write a book, right? Anyone can be yes or yes. Right? Anyone can be a writer. But the difference is, can you get it out there and actually sell it? So it really affects people and affects the world? So I do think there's a lot of negative connotation with life coaching is that if that's what you mean, I think the idea of it is saturated, but not the market?
Kathleen Shannon 21:28
Well, and I think that there used to be a negative connotation with it maybe three to five years ago, where it was like, almost like the negative connotations with online dating, like, what is that? I don't know, if I need that maybe even some of the same negative connotations that come with therapy, for example, or, you know, even the therapy versus life coaching tension that was happening a few years ago. So I don't think that the negative i think that the negative connotation is almost shifting a little bit is what I'm seeing in a new way. And for me, whenever people are interested in becoming life coaches, I think that a one big differentiator now is getting certified somewhere. Like I think that that certification is becoming more and more important, in order to be credible. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. Because even my mind has changed on that, like, probably three years ago, I would say you can totally coach someone, if you're skilled at it like no have natural talent, you know, maybe you don't need certification. But now as the market does feel saturated, that leads to me, I do think that certification is becoming more and more important as a differentiator and as a way to just make sure that you're staying sharp in your own craft.
Brooke Castillo 22:36
Well, okay, so let me tell you what I think the difference. So I work with lots of clients that aren't coaches that aren't certified that want to be certified, some of them and then I work certifying them. So I think I have a pretty good perspective on this. And what happens is when I have clients that attempt to coach, they're terrible at it. And the reason why is because when you are at least the way I train coaches, you have to learn the bill. I mean, it's a skill of holding space. And it's not something you can just understand Oh, I'll hold space that's fine. I will I'll be non judgmental when I'm coaching someone that sounds like a good idea. It's excruciating Lee difficult to do, right and training yourself to be able to do that is super important. And that's what I noticed that when I have people that are like, Oh, I like your skill, your your tools broke, I'm gonna go use the model on my mother. I'm like, first of all, don't ever coach your mother under any circumstance. Second of all, if you're going to coach someone, you need to know what you're doing. As a coach, it's very different coaching someone else and coaching yourself. So I absolutely think that not only should you be certified, but you really need to be careful with who you're getting certified by because not only are there a lot of life coaches out there, but there are a lot of people training life coaches out there that I don't think have that credibility that is I think should be required for anyone coaching anyone.
Kathleen Shannon 24:04
Okay. Can we talk about this and what I have really been feeling a little skeptical around people who are maybe quitting their corporate day jobs and becoming business coaches, and becoming like seven figure there. I'm going to admit there's a little bit of jealousy here. Like I hear these people who have never had their own businesses becoming business coaches and making seven figures and like booming right out the gate,
Emily Thompson 24:31
or, or being really annoyed that they aren't booming. And so they don't understand why their business isn't growing, but their business coaches who have never owned a business before
Kathleen Shannon 24:43
and I'm not trying to be tacky about this or call anybody out. I don't want anyone listening to this who became the business coach without ever running their own business to feel bad. I just am a little like it does experience play into your ability to coach and I know that life Coaching is different because everyone has a life. Everyone has navigated these, but I'm maybe thinking specifically about different areas such as business co No,
Emily Thompson 25:09
I will. And I can even think of several instances where her life coaches who, like when you really look at their own lives probably shouldn't have been life coaches. And maybe again, that's me being super judgmental, but I like my life coaches to at least look like they have a little more together
Kathleen Shannon 25:26
than Okay, so I'm not gonna agree with y'all. I'm just glad because this is something I've been feeling like, oh, wait about and I knew that you'd be the person to talk to you.
Brooke Castillo 25:40
Yeah. So here's, here's my, I have a lots of thoughts about all of it. So first of all, I don't think that you have to have done something to coach someone to do it. Right. So I think you can be a really good quarterback coach, if you've never played quarterback, right? I absolutely think there are people. And actually, I think sometimes people that are super good quarterbacks are terrible coaches, and shouldn't be teaching other people how to be quarterbacks, right? Because they're so naturally good at it. They're terrible coaches, right. So the idea, you're kind of presupposing, hey, if you want to train people, how to be great business coaches, you should have been a great business person. But think about it, maybe you are a great business person, but you're not a great coach, sometimes a great coach is just a great coach. And I will tell you, I've seen this so many times, I have so many students that are amazing coaches that are terrible business people. And it's such a shame, because they should be coaching, but they can't get their business off the ground. So they aren't coaching. So I've thought about that a lot. Like I need to start a business where I do the business part, and just hire coaches to work for me, like genuinely, I will do that someday, because it's such a need. So I do think that if someone has never owned a business, and they can make seven figures helping other people build businesses, I'm 100%, in as long as they're genuinely a good coach, and they're selling some good, high quality stuff that's effective, right? So I understand that you're, like, frustrated with, like, how did you just come in and do that, but like, obviously, if they're able to build a seven figure business, and they're coaching people to build businesses, then they are pretty good
Kathleen Shannon 27:22
at that, too, like they're good at business, created the business. And I've thought about that, too. And I do think that some of it for me is rooted in a little bit of envy, I'm sure, I definitely look at that within myself. Um, but also just a little bit of like, okay, what's really going on here? I just need to call up that person and be like, how did you do it?
Brooke Castillo 27:45
Use me, kid, you might want to hire that person. Wouldn't that be a turn of events,
here's my other thought on this that I think is so fascinating. So my coaches, Frank Kern, and he has a very successful business, teaching people how to be in business. And there are a lot of people out there that I admire greatly. That that is their business model, which I think is such a luxury, right, because you get to study and learn about business, and then apply it and then teach it. So what I tell Frank is, listen, I have another full time job. In addition to doing the business part of it that I have to do as well, I also have to come up with all my content for my coaching clients, right, and, and my, and working with all of them mental constructs around that. So I'm studying business, but I'm not teaching that right. What I'm teaching is this piece of it, which is the mental part of it. So I do feel like business coaches, have it have it easy. I think it's the best possible way to make a living, if you can figure out how to do it, because you're basically learning everything you need to do to make money and then teaching it to other people. Fantastic.
Kathleen Shannon 29:00
I think they also got to this place personally, where I just felt like I was looking at one of those infinity mirrors. Yeah, you know, like in a Play House where it just keeps going and to what end. And so even with being boss, we're talking a lot about business, and I started feeling and so I'm starting to realize as I'm talking this through, a lot of it was just probably my own projection happening here where I'm talking so much about business, I don't feel like I'm in my business, which is a big reason for me why I stay rooted in my branding company over a braid so I can continue to cultivate the experience. So maybe experience is important to me personally, which is totally fine. Like I need to have experience something to be able to teach it. But maybe that's just my style, and I need to be cool with other people having different styles.
Brooke Castillo 29:49
Well, and I think too, it can make the teaching more interesting, right because you have personal examples and personal stories that you can shout, share. And also I think it helps you be more real Double. When you're talking about what you've done in business, I think if you've done something amazing, it's so much easier to sell, right? Because you're like, Hey, I built a seven figure business, I'm going to show you how I think is much easier to sell than, hey, I used to have a corporate job in corporate America, but I'm going to teach you to have a seven figure business. So I agree, I like to teach what I know, I like to be in the trenches, myself, too. So I can totally relate to what you're saying. But I don't think it's necessary. I think you can coach and teach people to do something that you've never even done, which is so awesome. Right?
Emily Thompson 30:36
Right. And I also feel like our culture is so rooted in education and experience, which are obviously super important that we completely discredit natural ability and like innate skill. And that's something that I don't know, I know, I need to like, keep in check occasionally, because I'm like, your degree is from where and in what, um, but sometimes it doesn't matter at all. Your degree, or no, like, yeah, your degrees, sometimes, well,
Brooke Castillo 31:06
nobody cares. If I have a degree, nobody cares at all, a degree. One, one person out of like, 5000, people will ask me if I have a degree. And when I think it's hilarious, it's also I do have a psychology degree, it affects nothing that I do. Now, you don't use you study pathology, when you're studying psychology in school, it doesn't help with anything. But for some people, they want to know that you have some sort of credential that's mainstream. So I mean, I think that that is a huge issue, right? So people will say, Who am I to do this? Right? Like, like, for example, you have a lot of artists, right, that are like, I don't have an art. If someone's saying I don't have an art degree, or I was never trained in interior design. So I should never, I shouldn't allow myself to I think that's a terrible excuse. Right? I
Kathleen Shannon 31:52
think it's a terrible read. Agreed. But I do think that there is this thing where moving forward and honing your craft could include continuing your education totally. And that's kind of all a part of it. So even in my own life coaching experience, and I don't do much one on one coaching anymore, but I got training through Martha Beck Yeah, and I never got certified, because I was having a baby and all these different things were happening. And three years later, I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go back for that certification. And if anything, just to learn something new through that certification process. And of course, I did, of course, I learned something new.
Brooke Castillo 32:31
Well, the certification process, let me just say, I think so, with the way that I do my coach training is I teach all the concepts, right. And then the certification process is you doing them? Yeah. Right. So it's one thing to learn something this is like, all my scholars are like, Oh, I understand all this stuff. And I'm like, okay, coach me on it. They're like, Oh, it's totally different now that I'm actually doing it. And it's true, right. And I think the certification process is all about failing, right? And I always tell everyone, I'm like, you should suck at this right now. Right? This is you're learning how to do it and practicing how to do it. And then you get certified once you fallen down a bunch of times. So I absolutely agree. I think if the certification process includes a practicum, which mine does, and all good certification programs, do they require you to provide evidence that you actually know how to coach? I think that is key. Really? Yeah,
Kathleen Shannon 33:23
it was kind of fun putting together my spreadsheet of how many people I had coach since the training, and how many hours I had put into it, and then actually taking that test. Yeah. And it was a test for sure. And I think it is an important process for people to go through. If anything, I think it will help them gain the confidence that they need to move forward as a life coach with with that kind of credibility behind them. What do you think about, you know, that training versus certification process? And do you encourage all coaches to be certified before they start charging for it? Or how, what do you think about that?
Brooke Castillo 34:01
No, I actually, I don't think that the confidence comes from the credibility, I think the confidence comes from the practice and the overcoming of the failure, right? So a lot of people will say to me, Well, I don't want to start coaching until I get certified. I don't want to start charging until I get certified. But the certification for our organization is really just like, for me, it's like I let you coach my sister. Right? That's how good you have to be like, I'm not gonna wreck I want to be able to recommend anyone that I certify. So there's a point where you're learning the material to the point where you're certified where you're still effective, you're just not SR worthy yet. Right? And could you still charge during that time? Totally, totally. And the way that we train our coaches is we set them up so they're always holding space, so no harm can ever be done right. So we the what we train our coaches to do is to make sure that they're in a space where they're never telling their client what to do. They're never giving them advice on how to make this visions, right? I think if you don't have that kind of training, and you get into a situation where you're telling someone how to live their life, that's when you can get into a lot of trouble with yourself and with the person not just ethically, but also, you create a relationship that can be, you know, an adversary relationship, which is the opposite of coaching, right? How could I possibly know what someone else should do with their life, I never could know that. And if you don't have the training, you're going to treat someone like they're your friend, which you're like, you should break up with him immediately. And we should stop him right and throw things at his car. Right when you're a friend. So I think a lot of people without the certification kind of mix those types of relationships together to um, you know, a lot of problems in cause a lot of unnecessary problems. And and it's so I don't know, I think the certification process, it's so much easier than getting a degree. If you want to be a coach, why not do that? Right.
Emily Thompson 35:56
And probably significantly more valuable. biases as well was for me, for sure. Absolutely. Okay.
Kathleen Shannon 36:02
I would love to almost like quickly run through the life of becoming a coach. Yeah. So those people who are saying, Okay, I think I want to become a coach or I'm, let's just start there. I think I want to be a coach. And maybe it's because they've had a coach themselves that they were inspired by, or they've listened to your podcast, or whatever the reason they want to do it, what should they do next?
Brooke Castillo 36:26
Well, I think it's not whatever the reason, I think, Oh, okay. I think the reason matters, right. And this really goes back to what we were saying before, I think that you have to make sure you really like your reason, because like what you were saying before, while nothing else worked out. I think I'll just be a life coach. That seems easy. And a lot of people do think that, right? It's like that, like you said their fallback career. So I think that's really key, like, what is your reason to wanting to become a life coach? And do you really like your reason? The second thing is, okay, do I want to be a life coach, and an entrepreneur, because they go together, unless you're going to coach for somebody else, like in a corporate organization, you're going to coach within that organization. There's not a lot of, you know, advertising of jobs on Craigslist for life coaches. Right. So it usually goes hand in hand with being an entrepreneur. So you need to ask yourself, what's the reason I want to be a life coach, what's the reason I want to be an entrepreneur. And then once you've really like you like your decision, and it makes sense, then the the whole process of becoming one is to find, I think, to find a really good school, where you like the results of the people that are coming out of it. So hire one of them and get some coaching, right? A lot of people that come to my school have changed their lives because of my podcast. So they know that it works, or they've gone through scholars, and they know that it works. So they've seen the effect of it already. Make sure you've seen the effect of whatever school you're going to go through, not just the curriculum, which sounds super fun, right? That's the other thing we can get into trouble with. I kind of equate it to like, I want to have a wedding versus I want to be married. Right? It's like, if you're anything like us, like we'd love to consume material, right? We like listening to the podcast, we like reading self help books, we like reading business books, we like understanding and consuming, consuming. But do we actually want to have the you know, the day to day work that is required to build a business and be a life coach that I think is is huge. So then once you pick the school, then going through that school, all n 100%. Not just consuming but applying. I think it should be half consuming half applying. Most people think that signing up for life coaching school is an accomplishment. It's not an accomplishment. Anyone could be
Kathleen Shannon 38:54
lined up happening across the board with so many things like I can't do it for you, right? I can't practice your coaching for you, or I can't market your business. Well, I could market your business for you. But your ads pay me a lot of money.
Brooke Castillo 39:06
Wait a minute, let's let me just pause and talk about that for a second. Because I was just talking to my CFO about this. I'm like when I first became a coach, I just wanted someone to market for me. I just wanted someone to do it. They couldn't. I don't know that you can hire someone to market for you unless you're employing them. And you're selling coaching in general and they're like you're employed. Could you really market someone without them having to be involved in all at all? You really think they would have to be involved? Right? Like
Kathleen Shannon 39:33
and I'm speaking about it from probably more of a branding process. Oh, yeah. marketing process. I think that once you have your brand in place, and once you understand where your people are and who your dream customer is, I do think that you need to touch those points of your project first, but then at that point, you can get a social media manager. If you want a presence on social media, you can share with them what you're about, but you have to know what you're about first. to even know what to share with, right? So I do think that there can be help put in place to help market your business, but you have to have a solid understanding of who you are, what your business is and who your dream client is like who you're trying to reach. Before you can do all that.
Brooke Castillo 40:16
Well, and that's the hardest part. It is your life. As long as you've completely established your marketing plan, then you can.
Kathleen Shannon 40:25
But that's the stuff I love doing. Yeah. And that's the stuff that we and this is something else I wanted to say was back to that reason why and people thinking that life coaching seems easy. I've we Emily, and I have also had people come to us saying, Hey, I'm, you know, a coach, for example. And I'm thinking about starting a podcast, because it just seems easy. It seems so much easier than writing. And I want to be like, Whoa, like, it's not necessarily easy. Like you might get a lot of fulfillment out of it. But one of the things I was thinking whenever you said that, Brooke is just that, I think that if you're really dedicated to what you're doing, that none of it like it might feel really easy on one hand because you love doing it. But on the other hand, you're gonna be putting so much energy and focus into it, that it's not going to be easy if you're I'm trying to say this in the right way. Because I don't think that we should make things harder on ourselves than it needs to be like, but I think that's a terrible reason to do a podcast because I guess that's I guess that's it is that, like, whatever you're doing, the reason should never be that it's easy, because whoever is like dedicated to their craft in a way that is driven by this is what I'm put here to do, it's not necessarily going to feel easy. And that's not the reason why.
Emily Thompson 41:43
But even then hard things could feel easy or relatively easy. If you are there giving it your all and enjoying the process along the way. I was actually talking to someone last week about podcasting who wanted to start one. And her thing was, but it's so hard, all perspective here. And I was like you're you're right, it is hard. But like it's fun if you want to do it. Because again, it's all it's all about how you think about things and going at anything for harder, easy as the wrong way to do it.
Brooke Castillo 42:13
Okay, so let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Why'd you guys start your podcast
Emily Thompson 42:16
to create something for fun?
Brooke Castillo 42:19
Okay, listen, this is everything this is that if you guys listen to nothing else on this podcast, but this this is this is the secret to the universe. If you're doing something because you enjoy doing or not enjoy doing it, right? If you're trying to make a business out of it, the only reason to do anything is because of how it will serve your customer period. Right. So if you're thinking about a podcast, you got to think I, the reason I started a podcast is because I exactly I wanted to create some value for my customer, I wanted them to be able to listen to it and change their lives. If you're an artist. This is I was just coaching an artist about this. And she was saying, I just love to paint. And I said you have to if that's great, just paint. But if you want to make a business about it, you have to think about that customer and what they're going to love. It's not always and I think that's one thing that life coaching gets like a bad rap about that we're all just self indulgent, that all we do is think about what we want to do all the time. And you can't just think about what you want to do all the time. If you want to have a business, you have to think about relentlessly serving your customers. All I think about all day is how can I help them? How can I help them? How can I help them? How can I serve them? That is how you build a business and you want to create something that's and that's a huge piece of it, right? being creative. But you can't just be creative for creative sake, you have to be creative because you know, someone else will be served and benefited by it. Now, what if it was just us talking about this, we would just be chatting about Okay, so tell me what else you're doing besides Botox? I need to know all of it. Right? How much money are you making? What should I do to make as much money as you right? That's the conversation we would be having. And we probably enjoy that conversation more than this one. But all three of us are really conscious about who's listening to this and how can we serve them the most to our conversation is totally directed around that. And are we still enjoying it, of course, but they're always in our minds. We're not just being self indulgent. So I think, you know, doing a podcast because it'll be easy or hard totally misses the point doing it, will it help your customer? Will they enjoy it? Will they like it? That's the reason to do it.
Kathleen Shannon 44:24
It's so funny, because I'm a branding professional. My background is in graphic design, and I take people through that branding process to understand their dream customer. And I became life coach certified because at the end of the process of helping someone figure out their brand identity, their positioning their messaging, their brand story. I was getting questions like okay, but I'm going through a divorce, how is this going to affect things? And I was like, Whoa, I need more tools. Like I had no idea by right. I just like I knew exactly, um, or you know, what I really want to say is like like wool, leave them or like, like, just kind of go to the friend place. Yeah. Screw that guy. Yeah, take your brand and go make a million. So I recognize in what I how I wanted to respond, that I needed more tools for having these conversations and that I wanted to be better serving my clients on a more personal level. So I went and got life coaching training, for my role within a branding agency as a creative director, because I wanted to better serve my customer. And we've had this experience and brokens why you've created so many different things, because you're constantly seeing from one thing that you've created, how it opens a door to a new need for your customer.
Brooke Castillo 45:47
Right? Well, and I think about like you what, before I add, before we started recording, I had asked you guys, so who's listening to this, and one of the examples you gave is that we have like people that are creatives that are like making jewelry, right? So I'm imagining this woman that's listening to this podcast, who's making jewelry and loves making jewelry and is making beautiful jewelry, and maybe she's not selling as much excuse me as much of it as she wants to. And the only reason why is because she's thinking too much about herself. Not because she's self indulgent it just because she's afraid, right. So she's thinking what I don't want them to think that I'm pushy, and I don't want them to think I'm too salesy. And I want people to just appreciate this for what it is. And I just want to create these beautiful things. But as soon as you get out of thinking about your own fear and your own worry, and you start thinking about how much genuine joy someone can get from a piece of jewelry, and you're really just focused on that, and you're shifting, that's where that the whole branding can be become a problem. Because the branding is about your customer, you think it's about you, but it's about your customer. And as soon as my clients make that shift, I'm like, are they gonna like this necklace? And then all of a sudden, they're like, yeah, they're gonna love it. It's gonna be beautiful, especially with the pink shirt or something, and then you're like, see the shift? That's who you need to be focused on?
Kathleen Shannon 47:02
Here's where maybe I'm gonna disagree a little to it. Let's open the comment.
Unknown Speaker 47:06
Oh, well, I think
Kathleen Shannon 47:10
I know, I feel like I could never disagree with Brooke Castillo. You. You are the authority. I do think though, whenever you love something, let's go back to the jewelry maker if she's digging her necklace, and it's not just about what someone else might like, if she's digging it, I feel like there's that infusion of energy. Like, I even think about it in my relationships. Like whenever I really love something, it helps my closest people around me really love it too. Because I'm like putting my energy into it, if that makes sense. And so, for example, if I'm designing somebody's logo, and they're like, well, I feel like it should look like everybody else's. It might be watered down, and they might not love it. And then they might not feel as confident putting it on their business card, and then they're not going to want to hand out their business card as much. But if they really love it like for themselves, then I think that other people will love it too. Am I missing the mark here? I
Brooke Castillo 48:13
totally I totally think you are missing the mark, because I have and the only reason I'm saying this is because I have so many life coaches who love life coaching. They love the self coaching model. They love what it does for them in their life. They love their beautiful website and their beautiful logo and they love all the stuff. They degraded and they don't sell anything. How do you explain that? Yeah, I
Kathleen Shannon 48:38
mean, maybe they just have bad taste.
Maybe this only applies.
Brooke Castillo 48:52
Body. That's so good, right? What is the difference between real conversation but here's what you said, you said, If you love something, you're gonna have a lot more confidence around it. Right?
Kathleen Shannon 49:03
I know, I feel like this is such a thing with like, I have listened to Enough of your podcasts that the confidence comes from within and it comes from that thought Yeah, right. Like you get to decide. So but here,
Brooke Castillo 49:16
but here's where I'll tell you where you are. Right, right. So for me, I'll give you an example of if I'm selling a membership into self coaching scholars, right. I know that that's the most amazing program any coach sells on the planet. Like, I know that in my soul. So if I say to someone, hey, you should join scholars, and they're like, Oh, no, I'm like, No, really. It's the most amazing thing in the world. You have to sign up right now. It's so great. I know that you'll love it. I promise you. It's the best like so I love it so much that I'm so confident about it that it really helps me sell it because people are like, okay, that right? It's kind of like if I recommend to you I'm like, Oh my gosh, you have to check out instacart you guys know about instacart right? I'm obsessed with instacart right now, so I should be like their spokesperson told me Everybody should sign up for instacart. It's they bring you your freaking groceries. You don't even have to go to the store. Right? So I so it's kind of like, if somebody says to me, like, I don't want that I'm like you're out of your mind. You're crazy, right? Because I love it so much. So what what's the difference between Matt and someone that loves their stuff so much, but has such a hard time making money selling it?
Kathleen Shannon 50:24
I know, I guess just whenever I'm buying like me as a dream customer, whenever I'm buying a piece of jewelry, whenever I know that the artist who has made it loves it, it makes me love it more.
Brooke Castillo 50:34
Well. Okay, so here's your point, you can't hate the stuff you're selling. We could agree on that. Right? You don't know where we're at whatever you're selling, you have to I think that's a given. Like, I agree, don't make some stupid logo that you think looks.
Kathleen Shannon 50:51
A lot of people are I think a lot of people are watering down their offering guidance, whether it's a service or a product, I think that they're watering it down to be like, everybody, I got you. Yeah, I agree with that seen as successful. And maybe they don't feel good about it. But they're following the formula, or they're, you know, looking at what someone else did that successful and just trying to replicate
Brooke Castillo 51:12
it. Mm hmm. Yeah. So I think that i think that's step one, like you have to love what you're selling. But that just because you love what you're selling doesn't guarantee that you're going to be able to market it or sell it. What that requires is your willingness. First of all, you have to know who you're selling to period, which I know you guys probably talk about this a lot, because you have to have an ideal customer, it has to be as narrow as you I my opinion is narrow as it can possibly be. So you're speaking to them. And then usually that's going to be someone you can really relate to, unless you're some business coach has never had a business. But other than that, you're gonna be able to relate to them, right? And then the difference there is your willingness. I think the biggest difference between people that are successful as entrepreneurs and people that aren't, is your willingness to really be uncomfortable, your willingness to be rejected, your willingness to ask and keep asking and keep asking no matter what happens. That's that main difference. And most of us ask once, and we're like, Okay, I'm out. And it's not our fault, because we are trained, don't do it until you can get an A. And then once you do it, you better get that a and if you don't get that a you failed terribly. That's how we train our children. Don't ever fail. Failing is bad, right? And I think we need to unlearn that and learn like no, you're gonna fail like 50 times before you get one. Yes. Failing is a beautiful thing. Amen. Right.
Kathleen Shannon 52:42
All right, well, we're running out of time. So do you have any other like nuggets of wisdom or anything that you've been thinking about lately? Like, if I could just tell an entrepreneur, these three things like this is what it would be?
Brooke Castillo 52:56
Yeah, I think that first of all, we already kind of touched on it, which is, you have to understand when you're being the technician in your business, and when you're being the entrepreneur. And here's what you need to know, the entrepreneur employs the technician. If you don't have an entrepreneur, you don't have a job, right? So just know when you're being the technician, the artist, when you're being the creative that's producing the life coaching, or the jewelry or whatever, and the know, when you're being an entrepreneur. And it's not going to be easy. And that's a good thing. It's
Emily Thompson 53:30
amen to that.
Brooke Castillo 53:31
Right? It's okay, that it's not easy. And people say to me, because I have a very successful business that I have, I always say that like, like, are we doing something illegal here, like online business, right? online business is magic right now. There is no as a woman running her own company. Like, there's no limit to what we can do in this business and make a contribution. One of the questions you guys had for me is like, how do you get it out that like, I work three days a week? That's it, right? Because I totally take care of myself to be able to produce at the level that I do. So I think,
Kathleen Shannon 54:09
Dan, because you're not on social media.
Brooke Castillo 54:11
I'm not on any social media. I'm not consuming social media, I use social media for ads, but I don't consume it.
Kathleen Shannon 54:18
But I will sue quit their social media, we'd all only be working three days a week.
Brooke Castillo 54:22
I just really, really think that might be true. But here's the things. People think that you have to work hard, right? Like you have to constantly hustle and I think they're right. But I also think that if you focus especially that first year if you focus on failing as often as possible, that is the secret, right? Because we want to wait until we can be successful and we end up spending a lot of time waiting. And what we call hustling is really just fretting. Right? How much time are you spending just fretting about things and then calling that work? No, just stop fretting and just Go ahead and fail already, right, you'll learn much more. So I think that's the other thing. And just knowing that half the time, it's not going to feel good. And it doesn't matter how much money you're making, it doesn't matter how successful you get half the time, it's going to feel bad. And that's supposed to be.
Kathleen Shannon 55:15
And I think that this is a really interesting and good point to make. Because I think a lot of people become creative entrepreneurs because they want freedom. Yes, the word that comes up all the time. And so the instant something doesn't feel good, that does not feel like freedom.
Brooke Castillo 55:30
Yes, that's so good for you to say that people like, this is what happens. This is the biggest problem. People say, I want to do what I love. Right? And so what they think that means is that they're going to love every bit of it. Right? No, you know what that means? You're going to love half of it.
Kathleen Shannon 55:47
Half? What's the best way to reconcile that?
Brooke Castillo 55:51
I think that is it. 5050 is the reconciliation. Now people want negotiate understanding and acceptance.
Totally, I mean, people will try to negotiate Well, why can't it be at 20? I said, the effort it would take to what most people feel negative emotion about is their negative emotion. If you could just skip the part where you feel bad about feeling bad, you would skip a lot of feeling bad. Right? Right. Are you guys with me on this 100% if you just know like building a business, and putting your art, whatever that is out into the world is going half the time is going to feel terrible. And it's so worth it. To wit anyway. Do it because you know that not in spite of it, right? Because you're like I'm willing. And then you know, Pema children is like one of my best teachers and she says, what you have to do is just not try to avoid it, not try to make it less not try to comfort yourself about it, but open up to it. And here's what I'll say, is your art worth it? Are you willing, really willing to, you know, do what you need to do in order to be able to put your art out into the world? And I think that the answer has to be like, yes, it can't be because I want to do something I love because that's easy. doing what you love is probably much harder than not doing it.
Kathleen Shannon 57:17
Like just look at Yes, like even labor and delivery like an awful idea. Parents a hardest thing. I've it's the hardest thing I've ever done. And the most amazing thing I've ever done, like the best worst thing ever. And I think that entrepreneurship is very much the same way. And for me it took pushing a baby out of my body to really learn that lesson across the board. Yes. Yeah. For everything in my life. Again, I needed that experience to get it
Brooke Castillo 57:45
totally. Yeah. And I think that that's, that's the biggest lesson I have learned is the Morse because this is what happened. I wanted to lose weight, I lost weight. I wanted to quit drinking, I quit drinking. I wanted to make a million dollars, I made a million dollars, right? And then I was like, wait a minute. Why do I still feel like this? Why do I even ever experience anxiety? Right? Haven't I arrived yet. And then I had this huge realization that I spent so much time trying to get out of anxiety that when I just accepted that, like, sometimes I'm going to be anxious, it changed my life forever, because it just helped me keep moving forward, instead of hiding from those emotions that are always going to be part of life. So
Kathleen Shannon 58:28
Okay, one more question, too is I know that we have a lot of bosses with anxiety is how like, I think that we have these moments of realization like that, like, oh, like sometimes it just doesn't feel good. How do you remember? Like, every time it happens, oh, I'm going to get through this like or, you know, like, how do you remember is my main thing like if I can just remind myself of this feeling of insight every single time I'm golden?
Brooke Castillo 58:56
Well, I think when you we are raised and taught to push our feelings away, right? So when we feel anxious, we're like, I'm not anxious. I don't want to be anxious. Well, how do I get out of anxiety? Right? And we try and resist it. And I think when we start embracing it, we stop being anxious about our anxiety. Like that change that like drops anxiety by half. I know it did for me, I was so anxious about my anxiety. I'm like, I shouldn't feel anxiety. I'm a life coach.
Unknown Speaker 59:27
Kathleen Shannon 59:27
don't you ever experienced anxiety and start to get anxious about being anxious again? Like how do you drop back out of that?
Brooke Castillo 59:33
You have to ask yourself, the way that I do it is why am I anxious? I was asking myself whatever emotion I'm having. I always ask myself why? Why am I anxious? And the reason is always a thought. Always a thought. And what I say to me is, oh, I'm anxious because I'm thinking that my son's not going to pass his driving test. That's the thought I'm having I'm having just chatted to me, right? I was having a panic attack because he was on his driving test. And he'd already failed once and I thought it was good. gonna fail again. And I was like, Oh my God, he's not gonna pass again, he's not gonna pass again, I'm feeling anxious because I was just like, let let's be anxious. Let's just let it be. Let's just feel it. Because and like, actually move towards that anxiety even though I know I was the cause of it by worrying about it, right? It was still like opening myself up to it made it so much better now it didn't make it go away. The problem is like, you want to remind yourself, oh, I'm feeling anxious, because you want to get out of it. And if ever you're in a hurry to get out of it, then you're missing the point.
Kathleen Shannon 1:00:35
Brooke Castillo 1:00:35
if you're like, Oh, I'm anxious, and that's okay. I'm anxious and I'm willing to be anxious. that'll change your life. You're welcome.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:47
I love it. All right. We
Emily Thompson 1:00:49
have one more question for you, Brooke. If you don't mind, do it. What makes you feel most boss? Oh. When I genuinely help a client, it's the best feeling in the world.
Kathleen Shannon 1:01:03
Good. Oh, good. where can our listeners find more about your podcast? And all the things that you're doing life coaching school self coaching scholars? Where can we find you? Yeah, so
Brooke Castillo 1:01:14
my podcast is the Life Coach School podcast. You can find it in the top 15 I guess.
Kathleen Shannon 1:01:22
I'll go to business. And you could go James, we're right next to each I'm gonna screenshot it. Whenever we're next to each other.
Brooke Castillo 1:01:30
Sometimes you're on top. Well, come on. Usually it's been a minute. It's happened. That's awesome. I love that I'm in business. That's fun. You're in the business category. You didn't know that. I'm in like seven different categories. I think. Can you
Kathleen Shannon 1:01:46
do that? See you do know all the algorithms secret?
Brooke Castillo 1:01:50
I'm just not sharing them because I don't want you on top right. So yeah, the Life Coach School podcast or go to the Life Coach School comm lots of great things happening over there.
Emily Thompson 1:02:01
Wonderful. Thank you so much, Brooke, for joining us. Oh my gosh, sure to chat with you again. Such a pleasure went by so fast. So fun. We have gotten so much amazing feedback over the years from listeners about how our podcast has helped them start to grow and uplevel their businesses. So we want to celebrate you. Here's the boss we're celebrating this week.
Kathleen Shannon 1:02:23
Hi, my name is Shannon Mattern and I am being boss. I help entrepreneurs and side hustlers learn how to build their websites with WordPress, how to grow their audiences and how to turn their expertise into email@example.com dash BFF calm and this week I'm celebrating my first day of self employment After three years of side hustling have grown my business to the point that I could quit my day job and do what I love full time. Thank you Emily and Kathleen for creating the big boss podcast or journey has been a huge inspiration to me. If you're feeling boss and want to submit your own boss moment or when go to WWW dot being boss club slash I am being boss. This episode of being boss was brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting, thank you to fresh books for sponsoring us and you guys can try it for free by going to freshbooks comm slash being boss. Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Articles show notes and downloads at WWW dot being boss club. Thank you so much to our team and sponsors who make being boss possible our sound engineer and web developer Corey winter. Our editorial director and content manager Caitlin brain, our community manager and social media director Sharon lukey. And our bean counter David Austin, with support from braid creative and indicia typography,
Emily Thompson 1:03:45
do the work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.