Episode 178

Saying No with Rebecca Jarvis

May 29, 2018

Rebecca Jarvis of the No Limits Podcast and ABC News joins us to talk about when to say no, getting a yes after continuously hearing no, and balancing your work with your other desires without getting burnt out.


Learn More about the Topics Discussed in this Episode
This Episode Brought to You By:
"The times to say no early on are if it compromises your integrity."
- Rebecca Jarvis

Discussed in this Episode

  • The tradeoffs that come with success
  • Finding your "side door"
  • Self-care and dealing with burnout
  • Networking tips for introverts
  • Personal branding within a business or collaboration—balancing your job with your other desires
  • Getting a yes after continuously hearing no
  • Finding the trust and the faith to keep going
  • How to know when to say no and dealing with FOMO

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Almanac Supply Co.


Kathleen Shannon 0:01
Hello and welcome to being boss,

Emily Thompson 0:04
a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. I'm Emily Thompson.

Rebecca Jarvis 0:08
And I'm Kathleen Shannon. I'm Rebecca Jarvis and I'm being boss.

Emily Thompson 0:17
Today we're talking about when to say yes and when to say no in your life and business with Rebecca Jarvis. As always, you can find all the tools books and links we referenced on the show notes at WWW dot being boss club.

Kathleen Shannon 0:32
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Emily Thompson 2:03
Rebecca Jarvis is an Emmy Award winning journalist and Chief Business Technology and economics correspondent for ABC. You can find her on Good Morning America. World News Tonight 2020 and more. And in case that's not enough. She's also host of the ABC podcast No Limits where she interviews at women about what it really takes to build an empire.

Kathleen Shannon 2:27
Just in here turning all the gears. Yeah, I love it. You're right at home right at home. right at home bosses in ABC Studios with Rebecca Jarvis. Amazing. I'm so glad to have you here. Why is never more legit in my life. Yeah,

Emily Thompson 2:44
I am going to start making David come in and set my mic up for me. David, I'm going to be here is my David, not you. That's Trevor. Right, Trevor. Not Trevor's amazing, he works with ABC Radio. I'm going to get my own microphone adjuster.

Kathleen Shannon 2:59
And I'm going to have security that lets me into my house. Don't you?

Rebecca Jarvis 3:06
I hope they were good to you. The security. I told them to be good to you. I'm such a fan of what you guys are doing. It's amazing. Seriously, I love what you're building. I love the community. I love the conversations. And I love how down to earth and real it is. Oh,

Kathleen Shannon 3:21
well. Thank you very much. We're so excited to chat with you. So tell us your story. Okay, so we are in ABC. What would you call it? studios? Yeah, so this is ABC Radio. Okay,

Rebecca Jarvis 3:32
we are on the second floor inside of the ABC News building. My office is actually not far from here down the hallway. And this is the studio where we do no limits every week. And you are exactly the kind of people that we have on the show because I'm interested in talking to women who are bold and influential and doing awesome things

Kathleen Shannon 3:51
like yourself. Well, we are so excited to have you on our show you do all the things. So can you just kind of give us the lay of the land of what your job is here. And then let's dig into how you got there. Awesome.

Rebecca Jarvis 4:05
So I got my start. I cover business technology and economics for ABC News. So good morning, America, World News Tonight with David mirror nightline, 2020. And this week, and then I also do the No Limits podcast, which is awesome women like yourself. I've said awesome way too many times already today. But I feel that it's just go it's running through my veins because of the two of you. So really interesting women who are doing the things in their lives taking advantage of opportunity making and creating opportunity, being bold, being boss, and looking at their stories and the trade offs along the way and also trying to look at success and this is something I like that you do. It's not. Success is such a strange word because a lot of us are in pursuit of this idea, but it's it's different. what success means. is different for different people. And it also has trade offs, there are always trade offs between you know, you get this opportunity, this job, that's going to mean something else for your personal life. You You go to work for a company that you think is going to be the best thing in the world, the culture doesn't isn't the right fit. And all of a sudden, you're at this impasse and and it's looking at in the conversations that you have very similar to what we're doing it no limits, looking at how do we approach those decisions and trying to demystify some of those challenges along the way so that you can be more prepared for them and

Kathleen Shannon 5:36
think more, you know, a little bit in advance about how am I going to handle this if this happens? Totally. I mean, I feel like there are those trade offs. And I went into creative entrepreneurship, almost rebelling against that idea. I was like, I can do it all. I can have it all. And that has led to some moments of burnout, for sure, definitely. So I want to dig into a little bit like what some of those trade offs have been for you and how you've dealt with probably the burnout that comes along with saying yes to everything to get to here, this beautiful studio where someone is coming in and setting up your mic for you. Right. But like, what was the starting point or the the first point in your career where you felt like it maybe even in hindsight, like, Oh, that was a moment that led me to that next moment, that then led me to doing all the things here at ABC Studios.

Rebecca Jarvis 6:25
So I think, you know, I could go way far back in time to like high school and choices I made there. But I'll start with coming out of college. So I was graduating from school 2003, and I had a fair amount of student debt. And instead of immediately pursuing journalism, I instead started out in finance, which journalism, finance law were all interests of mine at the time. And I impart chose that direction. Because I thought that if I did finance for a few years, it would allow me to pay off some of my student loans, or maybe even all of my student loans, depending on the bonuses I got for my work, but that it would give me some freedom, so that I could make career choices without having to think specifically and entirely about compensation. So by thinking about compensation, in the first part of the career, being able to go elsewhere and pursue journalism, and honestly, I always say, find a side door. And for me, that was sort of my side door, it was having this expertise in business and finance and coming to the journalism world as opposed to someone coming just straight out of journalism school, which by the way, can absolutely work for you too. But for me, it was having this expertise that helped me break through early on as a young journalist and gave me more seniority earlier on in my career. And that was almost an unintended consequence of that background. And so that was a big, big moment. For me.

Emily Thompson 7:59
I love this idea of a side door so much, because I feel like so many of us, you know, come out of school, or come like or go into your career trajectory, with like this live this very narrow wedge of like, I have to go do this one thing, because that's what I've been going to school to do, or that's what I've been trying to do. But then you're just like everyone else who's doing the exact same thing as you and you know, you can even draw parallels here with creative entrepreneurs having side hustles Yeah, or or, you know, full time jobs with side hustles, this idea that what it is that you're doing on the side, the extra interest that you're pursuing, apart from the main thing that you want to be known for, is what gets you into the side door in a way that's going to make you more interesting, and more valuable than the people who are just pigeon holing them into the obvious answer.

Rebecca Jarvis 8:51
Yeah. And I also think that, in addition to that, this idea of everybody is rushing towards the entrance. And if you're trying to rush towards the entrance, you know, all these sharp elbows are coming your way. And that's not an enjoyable experience. But in addition to that, I also think, and I talked to, I've talked to my friends about this over the years, and I talked to a lot of people who are just coming out of school. If you think there's one perfect path, it's oftentimes you're stuck, because in less like, the perfect thing reveals itself in front of you, all of a sudden, you feel like you can't move forward. So rather than trying to think what is perfect, and instead thinking, this interests me, and I can enjoy this in and of itself, but it also could lead to something else. I think that that mentality really helped me early on in my career.

Kathleen Shannon 9:37
I mean, that's even starting out the conversation saying, in hindsight, where do you think that entrance point was, because you really can't see it at the time if you don't have to follow. But I think it's interesting that you are following what would give you a certain amount of security and freedom. Were you ever worried about becoming like addicted to the money and I mean, how does that work?

Rebecca Jarvis 9:57
That's a great question because I I saw so I was two years into banking when I decided I had to quit. And part of it was I saw these other people who early when I started, they were saying, I want to go teach, I want to do this, I want to do that. And it just started to peel back, you know, but group after group, all of a sudden was giving up and less interested in those other things. And I even remember, I made a conscious decision, when I left to not take calls from recruiters that were recruiting me for finance jobs. I said, I'm giving myself two years, I actually when I, when I left investment banking, I started in print journalism, and I gave myself two years. Just saying, Okay, I got it. Let's see what happens over these next two years. And I will look at my life two years from now. And if it hasn't sort of progressed in a way that I want it to, then I'll have to make a new evaluation. I didn't know exactly what that was going to look like. And and, you know, for people out there who might be thinking journalism, one of the things I did that also, I thought was, it ended up being really useful. But again, to your point, you never really know, I just asked a bunch of the editors out for coffee and pitch them story ideas, based on my experience in the world I had seen, and one of the editors for cranes ended up saying Sure, yeah, come right for me. And that that made all the difference.

Emily Thompson 11:21
I want to talk about this, like two year timeframe you gave yourself because I talked to people all the time, who is who want to quit the thing or change the thing or do the thing or whatever. And I always ask them, like, do you have this exit strategy you almost gave yourself even though like an entrance strategy of like, laying out what you wanted life to look like two years from now? Was it really you sitting down one day and saying two years from now I want to have succeeded at this, this and this? Or is this something like looking at Hot looking in hindsight, you see it? Was it actually a very proactive plan?

Rebecca Jarvis 11:53
I don't think it was me sitting down one day. But I do think it was somewhat of an evolution of me saying, okay, there are, for example, I wanted an actual job in journalism by the end of those two years. And I was living in Chicago at the time. And I didn't have the specific objective of Oh, I need to be in New York or something. But I wanted to be in a city. And I wanted my life to be reflective somewhat of the life that I was living at that point. So I Chicago, New York, LA. That was important to me. And well, you know, I think the more interesting question would be if it hadn't worked out the way it would, would I have truly quit after two years and come up with something else? Because I think at that point, I would have been so deep in and I would have felt like oh, I have to just if and it was it was always my dream. So it's like, if you have a dream, it's much harder to say, I've done my two years if that was your plan, and then I'm going to walk you know, yeah, no one to hold no one to fold. I'm really knowing when to fold is tough,

Kathleen Shannon 12:57
right. But I also feel like having that dream, having the patience to spend two years doing something else. I mean, but I guess you had the plan, right like that you knew that you're going to kind of niche in on this topic, and that this would help support your journalism career. So you were going into it with an additional purpose beyond just making the money to pay off the loans, right? Yeah,

Rebecca Jarvis 13:17
yeah, it was. I mean, my mom, I should, I should say, My mom is a journalist as well. She's not a journalist. And she wasn't a journalist at the time in the market where I was she she happens to now be a journalist in Chicago, but I grew up in Minneapolis. And she sort of laid out for me, especially when I was going to college, that if I went to college, and I started out in journalism, I would never be able to pay off my student loans. Okay, and I, you know, that resonated with me, I wanted to be

Kathleen Shannon 13:50
able to eat there was like a parent. pay off your dad. Yeah. Hey, Dad,

Rebecca Jarvis 13:55
seriously. And I'm glad I'm so glad that my mom said that to me, because, you know, I didn't have the interest in moving home. I'm sure my parents would have allowed me to move home if that was the thing that I had to do. But I really wanted to be independent. And that wasn't going to happen without a type of job that I took on.

Kathleen Shannon 14:17
You know, it's so funny hearing this because Emily and I were walking down the street earlier today getting here and I told her my dream was in New York City. I wanted to be here so bad. And even whenever I was picking out schools to go to for college, I was looking at NYU, and I was an art major. And so it would be perfect. Right? And that tuition bill, so I you know, and sometimes I'm impressed that as an 18 year old, I had the foresight to say like, okay, I don't want to have that kind of debt. And the sacrifice I'm going to make in that moment is going to school in my backyard. Basically, I went to the University of Oklahoma. My tuition was less than my son's daycare. Probably because daycare is so cool. The tuition. Exactly. Okay, so let's talk about today like What does today look like for you? What are you doing in any given day?

Rebecca Jarvis 15:10
So I start my days most morning, start around 5am. That's when I'm getting to go to Good Morning America in the morning. And usually, whatever story I'm covering, whether it's something about technology, we've been talking a lot about Facebook and Amazon lately, whether it's about the economy, you know, we're talking about the market and what's happening in China right now in trade, or we're talking about, you know, there's a lot of other things that we could be talking about on the air as well. But those are, those are the things I'm prepared to talk about when I go into Good morning, America. Good morning, America starts at 7am. So usually, I'm on the air around 715, then I'm on the air for a little bit, then I start turning my attention to the rest of my day, which usually, I try and leave Good Morning America and go to the gym, if I can. I do a lot of meetings at that point in the day. Then I come here, and I tape, no limits interviews. And then I start turning my attention towards World News Tonight, which I start putting a story together for that. And by 630. I'm getting ready to go on set with David mirror for that show. And then after that show, I start turning my attention again, back to Good Morning America for the next morning. Or if I have a story running on nightline that night, I'm working on that story.

Kathleen Shannon 16:29
So is that like a 14 hour day that you just described every day?

Rebecca Jarvis 16:33
There's a lot of Yeah, there are a lot of 1415 hour days. Okay, so you mentioned burnout earlier. And it's it's real. I mean, there, it's not always there right now, there's a lot of mind over matter. And I'm sure you know that feeling too well.

Kathleen Shannon 16:48
But tell us more specifically what you mean by mind over matter.

Rebecca Jarvis 16:51
So I, I'm 36 years old now. And I recognize that you can't trade your health, which is something I did all throughout early on in my career. I mean, especially when i when i really early started, I would sleep three hours a night and just go go go. And I often reflect on that we've had Arianna Huffington here talking about the importance of sleep. And and I completely agree it is very important. And especially now I feel the importance of it more than I did early. But I also think that had I not said yes, early on in my career, had I not just gone to the enth degree day after day, mind over matter, I don't know that I'd be able to be here right now. And that's a real struggle for me. Because, you know, you get this physical body wants, right. And if you do irreparable harm to it by not taking care of yourself, then you can't experience the fruits of your labor. But at the same time, there are these major trade off moments where you just have to keep going, or at least in my experience, I really doubt that I could be here if I hadn't.

Kathleen Shannon 18:02
Right. So tell us a little bit about that. Because I do feel like there is this trend right now in self care and saying no to protect your energy. Emily and I did a whole episode about this where I've been saying so much Yes, though. And we couldn't have gotten to where we are right here today. If we had been protecting our energy and saying no all the time, we had to say yes to everything and hustle and work some late nights and make some sacrifices. So can you just tell us a little bit about that?

Rebecca Jarvis 18:32
Well, I think there are trade offs, no matter what, both options have trade offs, you say no all the time early on, maybe you're protecting yourself. Maybe you're getting to do some of the things that are near term really important to you. But if you're saying that to a boss, I don't know how long that boss will be your boss for. And and even beyond that. If you're saying no, and you're out hustling as an entrepreneur, and you're saying no, early on, things might not come to fruition because I bet like you the randomness of those Yes, experiences oftentimes works out to be something even bigger than what you had imagined. It's really, it's really tough. I don't have all the answers. I know for me by saying yes, early on. And actually Alexis ohanian you guys know Alexis ohanian, the creator of Reddit. So he has this whole thing where he says say yes all the time and then learn quickly when you need to start saying no. And I think for me, I only learned maybe in the last year and a half two years of my life that saying no is important. But I could only do that because of where I where I've gotten i think

Kathleen Shannon 19:43
i think it's like good to say yes whenever you're in your 20s and you have the energy I'm just tired now. To tie yes anymore.

Emily Thompson 19:54
And and I think the important thing to always keep in mind is going back to like what your definition of success is where if your definition of success is pretty grand, you're like, what you're going to have to give up and say yes to is going to be more like, you have to say, yes, you have to show up, you have to give it your all. And, you know, maybe that does mean giving up a couple hours of sleep in your 20s and 30s, for sure. But you're going after that thing that you want. And I think if you define that for yourself, very truly, you can, you can reframe it so that it is simply worth it. But I think that I think the important thing is knowing when you've reached that place in success, where you can be happy, and then like, stop and take care of yourself. And not that it's like, obviously that cut and dry, right. But I think you need to know what you're working for and work for it and feel good about it. Because I know there's like all this hating on the hustle these days. But guys, I admire the hell out of someone who is going to show up rally and get done what it is that they're here to get done. If it's, you know, for themselves if it's for your definition of success. So yes, like, give it up, say yes to things, but then do know when it is time to start saying no.

Kathleen Shannon 21:21
Okay, so what are some examples of some things that you said yes to along the way that our bosses could learn from? And did you learn any lessons along the way about like, oh, maybe I should say no to things like that? Did you start to kind of learn your boundaries by testing your boundaries?

Rebecca Jarvis 21:36
Well, in my field, I said yes to a lot of networking. So any kind of in person networking, even if I wasn't really sure who might be at that event? I would say yes. Because it was an opportunity for me to go out and get to know more people. Speaking for me, I get approached to do public speaking a fair amount. And I would say yes to all, again, with the idea that I'd meet new people, and I'd get to understand that world. And then also workwise, you know, there were so my husband and I, we lived in separate cities for two years, we did long distance. So I lived in New York, he lived in Chicago.

Kathleen Shannon 22:13
I mean, I guess with 14 hour days, you

Rebecca Jarvis 22:16
we were both working so much. But it was it was tough. And one of the things that I did, and thank goodness, it all worked out. And my husband is incredible, and an absolute partner to me. Early on, you know, I'd get approached on a Friday night by my boss, can you work on this story over the weekend? Well, you know, here I am. It's 6:30pm. On a Friday, I've got a 7:30pm flight that I'm barely gonna make. And I have to make a decision at that point. Do I get on the airplane and go hang out with my husband for the weekend? Or do I do the story?

Kathleen Shannon 22:50
Get on the airplane girl? Get on the airplane? Well,

Rebecca Jarvis 22:54
so thank goodness, I have a husband who was you know, he understood when I didn't get on the air. So there were times there were times I didn't and there were Yeah. And and he because of he and I both started in, in a world where we were actually working together back to back in a cubicle. So he, I think appreciated what I was working towards. And thank goodness, again, if I had felt, I think if I felt differently about our relationship, that I felt like he wasn't supportive, I think it would have been a harder decision for me. I am so thankful to him, that it was never an ultimatum on his part. Like oh, if you don't get on this airplane, we're done. That would have made it so much more fell

Kathleen Shannon 23:39
in love with the hustle.

Rebecca Jarvis 23:41
Yeah, he's I mean, I seriously I think a lot about partnerships and how important if you have that partnership, how important when you're in a position like the ones that were in. That is so key 100%

Kathleen Shannon 23:57
this thing boss episode is brought to you by 2020 where creative minds get authentic real world stock photos. If you're looking to positively inspire your audience on social media or on your blog, you'll want to use engaging fresh photos that are unique. 2020 has crowdsource millions of exclusive photos from a community of over 350,000 photographers, all available under a simple royalty free license. Today they're offering listeners of being boss a five photo free trial to start yours right now. Go to 2020 comm slash being boss, that's the word 20 then to zero.com slash being boss to get five free photos. Okay, I have a question about networking. Yeah. Can you give us some tips or advice for networking because we have a lot of introverts listening, but even you know, I consider myself an extrovert, okay. I just turned introvert I It's not being tired. I'm just tired, tired. But um, but my question is like even extroverts sometimes, like, you can get hit with shyness or just feeling like you don't belong in a room? And do you have any advice for us there as far as networking goes, so

Rebecca Jarvis 25:14
I tell myself when I go into rooms, and I feel shyness to when I can be, I would say, I probably I started out really introverted, and I've become slightly more extroverted through trial and error. And I think one of the biggest things I tell myself when I go into a room is, first of all, no one's paying attention to you. Everyone's in their own world trying to be their best. So if you're the weird person in the corner, they're not noticing that you're the weird person in the corner. Also, whatever comes out of your mouth, no matter how bad you think it is, again, people are thinking more about the thing that they're saying, as opposed to judging you for whatever it is that you're saying. So I think one of the things that helps me is to go in and think of it as I'd like to have a curiosity conversation, every person in this room probably has something interesting about themselves. What can I learn about the people in this room, and I approach it in that way? And and in the way of, how can we get real, you know, I think people underestimate, because when you see certain people, you think, oh, they're like the best networker because they're in, Hey, I got a conversation. Those aren't the people anyone really wants to talk to, like, the long conversations that people really take the most away from, are the genuine ones, where you show a little bit of vulnerability. I mean, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to, you know, you have to know your audience a little bit. But it's not the worst thing in the world to say, like, I'm terrible at this, like, I hate networking, because I'm not, this is not my thing. And then all of a sudden, that person, nine times out of 10 is gonna say, Yeah, I know, I feel the same way. And getting to know that person across from you, in an honest way, I think is really key, it doesn't hurt. Especially if you've got something that you're trying to sell, it doesn't hurt to have kind of like an idea of your opener. But I think real and authentic is so much more valuable than wowing somebody right off the bat with all the things you know, and what you're capable of.

Emily Thompson 27:19
Yeah, I mean, any natural conversation is going to come around to what it is that you do. So like starting with, hey, I'm so and so. And this is what I do. Like, you just bypassed all the like, good conversation and just went right into what it is that you're here for. That makes everybody uncomfortable.

Kathleen Shannon 27:34
Yeah, I also think not focusing on trying to meet the most influential person in the room. And this is something I learned, especially in the creative entrepreneur space is, yes, I could go and try and meet the the person who is going to be rocket fuel to my business. But in some ways, I really like the idea of having conversations with people who I'm in it with, and we can all build each other up and become that next wave of influencers. And I don't mean that in like the bloggie sense of influencers, but people who are making things happen

Rebecca Jarvis 28:05
completely. Yeah, I think finding people that you connect with in a genuine way, to me is what it's all about. Now, there are occasions where I go into a room, and there's somebody that I need to interview, you know, for example, a high level government official or something, and I know they're in the room, and I have to try at some point to make my way to that individual. And I will do that, in all honesty, but I also approach networking, especially now as enjoyment, how can I How can I have a really interesting conversation and get to know that person in a real way? And I think asking questions is really key to

Kathleen Shannon 28:45
Okay, wait. So whenever you go into a room and you need to get an interview, are you trying to meet them so that then you can pitch them for the interview or you're getting your sound by then and

Rebecca Jarvis 28:54
both? It's okay, if it's an aggressive interview, there could be a time where I have to go like, for example. Many years ago, the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook was on Capitol Hill. And I chased him into almost into the men's bathroom because I was trying to get sound from him. And I've since interviewed him in a much less awkward place. But I chased him into a bathroom early on. Martha Stewart, I was she my boss told me go get an interview with her and she was on a red carpet. And so that was super awkward because I had to chase her on the red carpet. And I didn't realize that when you're interviewing people on the red carpet, you have everybody has a spot. So as a journalist, you have to stand in your spot and just hold your microphone out. And then hope that they'll stop and talk to you. But I didn't know that it was the first red carpet I've ever done. And so I started chasing her and I'm accidentally in everyone else's shot because all the other photographers and they were all yelling, profanity. It was so stressful. And then My camera man started yelling back at them like back off. She's just a kid.

Kathleen Shannon 30:04
Oh, that sounds scary. Okay, I asked him questions about personal branding, because that is something I'm so passionate about is, you know, blending more of who you are into the work that you do. And I think it's so cool that you have a name right? Like right now I'm literally looking at this board that says abc news, no limits with Rebecca Jarvis. And here you are. So I'm curious about what you think about personal branding, especially within the context of the support and backing of a network like ABC, I think this is something that creative entrepreneurs can learn a lot from, because I think so many of us want to be so independent, that we end up closing ourselves off to opportunities for collaboration or support or resources. So what has that been like for you?

Rebecca Jarvis 30:54
So I think one really key point there is finding a culture, that you can do what you want within, and it's might not be immediately obvious to you. But if you have that entrepreneurial spirit, not all businesses have the size of an ABC News are going to be open to that. And so finding that is key. And then within that context, I think it's really what I have done and tried to do is I thought, what are the conversations I really wish were out there. And I assume you guys were thinking the same thing with being boss. It's where is there a yearning, a desire inside of me for this thing? And if I care about that thing, and I'm not getting it, then why wouldn't I be the one to create it? Because I bet there are other people who also feel that missing spot. And if I can play a role in that, and bring a huge community of people into that conversation, that's going to both nurture me, but it's also going to hopefully down the road help other people too.

Kathleen Shannon 32:06
So I'm curious, are you technically freelancing? Like, could you say no to some of the Good Morning America jobs? Or some of the or is it like, this is your job? You need to do this? Uh, you know,

Rebecca Jarvis 32:17
do you have a choice? I think there are, there's balancing. Good morning, America is my job. Okay, I go to Good Morning America, almost every day to do whatever story it is that I do for ABC News. And, you know, back to the idea of of saying yes, and trying to keep yourself from burnout, I have to balance that job, which is the reason I was hired to work here with my other desires, which this, I'm so lucky that this company appreciates what we're building here with with the podcast and with other work that I'm doing. But it is a balancing act.

Kathleen Shannon 32:58
So did you pitch no limits? Were you like, hey, I want to Okay, so here's I was like, please, can we please, please, please do this? Good. I love that you did that. Because we also have a lot of listeners who work day jobs. And I think that there is such an opportunity there to do creative things. So even at my first agency, I was blogging on the side and then said, Hey, advertising agency, why don't we have a blog, you know, and it's never a bad thing to pitch new ideas, especially if you can get someone else to pay you to do it. You know, if you're trying to tiptoe your way into something more creative, you can create creativity within the context of an organization or company, you just have to ask.

Rebecca Jarvis 33:37
Yes. And you have to, in my experience, you have to be okay with hearing no many times before you get to yes. And it's all about just continuously going back. I am sure as you guys hear all the time from people you interview, you're going to hear no. Or at least in my experience, you're going to hear no way more times than you're going to hear Yes. And getting the yes is a matter of continuously coming back refining your idea. Asking someone else thinking differently, and being okay with the fact that it might not be immediate.

Emily Thompson 34:12
I want to talk about like getting the Yes, though, like what was tweaked to the point where you got the Yes. Like, what was the ask that got the Yes.

Kathleen Shannon 34:20

Rebecca Jarvis 34:21
I think part of it was podcasting. I was I was pitching a podcast, and sort of this idea of what I used to work for another company, CBS and back at CBS. I did this another show called the startup and I've always been interested in entrepreneurship and how entrepreneurs build their businesses. And so back then I was thinking podcast, but the this this studio that we're sitting in right now was down the road from here so wasn't in the same building. And podcasting wasn't necessarily the thing that everybody else had their eyes on. Now, it feels like everyone's talking about it. Well, you know, five years ago, when I was originally saying, Let's figure this out how do we do this? Most people weren't thinking about it. So it was, it was coming back over and over again, I kept saying we need to do something with women because for me, so much of the business beat and the technology beat has been a focus on men who are building businesses, which Bravo, I, there are a lot of awesome men who are building awesome companies. But I really wanted to demystify the path that women had taken to get to those roles. And I think also personalizing it for me and saying, I understand that you're not necessarily seeing this out there yet. But I'm telling you, this is where I would listen, this is what I desperately want. And if I would listen, there's got to be another audience and just, you know, pulling statistics and things like that, like, look at where things are going, look at who's listening to podcast, look at who's spending money in the areas where advertisers that advertise you're interested.

Kathleen Shannon 35:57
Love that. You know, I also think that there is a certain amount of timing that comes with things like this. Whereas if you had launched this podcast five years ago, it might not have done as well. And that's something that we've certainly learned in our business and really learning how to trust that kind of timing. So I've two questions. And they're kind of unrelated. One is in that trust aspect of like, how much you know, values or even like spirituality do you bring into your career? Because I feel like that's something that a lot of women are doing. It's certainly something that Emily and I do with like an intentional practice every month. But then my other question, Oh, shit.

Rebecca Jarvis 36:38
Last, did you want me to answer that one? Yeah. Yeah. I do that all the time. By the way, it's the entire thing. You lose your train of

Kathleen Shannon 36:47
thought that's I've only had five hours of sleep last night. I know. But you were talking about all your stuff. I'm like, whatever, Kathleen, you can deal with five hours? Oh, no, no, I had a baby that didn't sleep for two years at all. I mean, he was up 12 times a night. So I kind of have like PTSD about sleep. Our poor listeners heard me talk about it for many years. And then I stopped talking about it. But anyway, your listeners writing in saying stop talking about it? They sometimes Yes, really, oh, I don't read that. I don't I don't read those.

Rebecca Jarvis 37:16
So I'm on the, I'm glad you don't read those. By the way. That's good. That's useful. Okay. So values, values are so important. To me, integrity is so important to me. And everything that I am doing at this moment, is trying to, in many ways, be the voice that I wished, was there early on in my career, and trying to come at the conversation from the most real and vulnerable and honest place that I can at this moment in my life. And it's a really, I just the word, authentic and real and honest, is very much overused, I think right now, but at the same time, I feel like we're so desperate for it. And you know, it when you see it, and it's the real deal. And so that is that is one of the, for me driving principles of the whole thing. And also, you know, finding meaning you You work so hard and you get to this place, and it's a successful place, maybe on paper, and then you kind of look around and and i've i've felt absolute gratitude for the position that I'm in, but at the same time, I know, it's not the whole thing. And it's really important for me to keep pursuing opportunities and, and challenges that nourish me. And so I kind of always, like in terms of where I say yes, now, it's, is this is going to nourish me? And is this gonna make me whole and more complete of a human being? And could I, with this opportunity, help other people as well feel that wholeness and that completion?

Kathleen Shannon 39:09
I love that. Okay. My other question has to do with rejection. I feel like journalists are really good at it, because here

Emily Thompson 39:19
is am I wrong? Am I getting rejected all the time? in a class in that in school?

Rebecca Jarvis 39:25
Life Class? No, it's the life class. You know what it is? rejection. There's rejection every day. I mean, if I showed you the number of emails that I've sent pitching people either to come on no limits or to be the people that I'm interviewing for ABC News, we're constantly being told no, constantly. And sometimes by the way, your boss is also saying you must make this a yes. And you can't. In addition to that, this this business is, in some ways, a zero sum game. And what I mean by that is, there's one chair you know, there's one acre chair, there's one Business correspondent chair. And there are gonna be times where that chair is not yours. And I think for me, one of the things that I've done in this business is I recognize that a lot of the time, it's apples and oranges. It's not like two of the identical people walk into a room, and they audition for the same opportunity. I try and say to myself, well, I'm an apple, and that one's an orange. And hopefully, someday, they'll be interested in an apple. But I also feel like Personally, I, I've tried really hard to, you know, you never have full control over anything. But I've tried to build out this, and what we're doing right here, because I have some additional control over that. And for me, it's leaving your fate entirely up to the decisions of others. And sometimes not even their decisions. It's like, not only do you have to wait for your boss to want you to be in the role, but you have to wait for someone else to no longer want that role. Like that's, I don't really want to wait for that. Instead, I'd like to build something that I think is really cool and do it every day.

Emily Thompson 41:10
All right, I want to talk now about rejecting. So like, but saying no. So we've talked a lot about saying Yes, yeah, and how you should be doing that until you shouldn't, but at what point is the Shouldn't

Rebecca Jarvis 41:27
I don't think it's a mathematical equation. But I do think that when you are at a point of being overtaxed such that it's hindering and impairing your health and also your product, you have to reevaluate. And if you recognize that you're getting sick a lot, or you recognize that the work that you're doing isn't good, anymore shoddy work, then you have to take a step back and evaluate, and even beyond beyond that point, once you've sort of that would be the early stages, I think of saying no, I think beyond that point, once you start to take a step back, you know, especially for us whose inclination is to say yes, everywhere. I have an incredible producer, Taylor Dunn, who's sitting in the other room, she helps me Actually, as a sounding board, where my inclination would be to say, Yes, my husband is like this, too. They will say, wait a minute, take a step back. Do you really care about that? If you don't, your time is too precious for that right now. And I also think that time is seasonal, too. You know, like, sometimes, in certain seasons of your life, things are gonna make sense. You know, you're you're a relatively new mom, you had to say no to things at times.

Kathleen Shannon 42:48
I mean, I mostly still said, Yes. This is why I'm so tired.

Rebecca Jarvis 42:55
I mean, and I don't know I yeah, to read Yeah, to I'm sorry, I don't even I'm not speaking I, I'm not a mom yet. Hopefully, someday I want to be a mom. But I talked to my friends who are our new moms. And they talk a lot about this idea of seasons. And there are going to be different seasons, sometimes you put your foot on the gas. And sometimes there are things happening outside of your control. So you have to put your foot on the gas.

Kathleen Shannon 43:19
Yeah, I mean, for me, and my experience, and I've talked about this before you being pregnant, I felt like everything was growing at the same time. And I was like, Why? Why does my most fertile time have to be when I'm like really building up my career and all of that, but there are certainly sacrifices. And if there aren't sacrifices, there are the feelings of guilt or burnout or whatever that come rage, or anger. And so that's probably the trade off there. And

Emily Thompson 43:47
I want to go back to back to what you were saying about like, what it is that you say no, because what you're basically defining what I want to punctuate as much as I can is this idea of having standards. And yeah, beginning it's really about, you know, the work that you're doing, because early on in your 20s, early 30s. Like, you are there to work kind of just for retirement, I'm looking out at retirement now. And it's it's going to be a beautiful place. You are working your retirement or 20s I mean, you going to school like you don't you're not doing national perfectly. Any Oh, okay. Like, I'm working now to have a happy old age. Oh, I'm just saying I'm keeping it in.

Kathleen Shannon 44:31
Okay. But

Emily Thompson 44:33
early on, it's about keeping those work standards and is when opportunities start really affecting your ability to deliver what it is that you're delivering in in the way that you have defined. It's like, goodness, yeah, like you have standards for the work that you do whenever things come in. That would hinder that. That's those that's the times when you say no, but I do also agree that as you get older and as you're also building a life, you have To work the life equation into, like, what are the standards for my life and my work, and start folding all those together. So I just want to like punctuate that is have some standards guys and hold to them, please.

Rebecca Jarvis 45:12
And it You made me think of something that actually has also been a theme for me that I think is so important, which is the times to say no early on, are if it compromises your integrity, because that short term gain and and I do think when you're young, you get sometimes approached with these very short term gain choices. And if it compromises your integrity, that's something I believe you can't buy it back. So that is if there is a compromise there, say no early on, and I don't think you will regret it down the road. Agreed.

Kathleen Shannon 45:49
I also think that there's this aspect of just experimenting. So whether you're actually young, like in your 20s, or young in your creative career. I think that saying yes to a lot of things is really, really great for just figuring out what it is that you really want. You have to experiment. And that means that if an experience isn't good, it's information. It's a lesson about what you can say no to later. So true. Okay, do you ever now that you're saying no? Are you saying no, now a little bit more? Okay. Um, do you ever? Do you ever have like fear of missing out all the time? Yeah. How do you deal with that? Um,

Emily Thompson 46:26

Rebecca Jarvis 46:27
it's not always perfect. I definitely can go down that FOMO role, especially the Instagram rabbit hole. I don't know if you guys have been there or not. But

Emily Thompson 46:38
you're every day. Really? Yeah. So I always

Kathleen Shannon 46:41
end up on Kylie Kardashian, Instagram, and you think you're missing out on her life? I'm like, Oh, my gosh, she get lips. Okay.

Rebecca Jarvis 46:52
Um, so, um, I would say so. I try really hard to live in the moment. It's not always easy. But I do. And I try to remind myself, there are things I say no to, because I know even though it might look good on Instagram, it's not really the thing that I really want to spend my time doing. And if I'm enjoying, like, let's say I said, No, because actually, this is my downtime, and I'm getting to spend it with my family and my friends. That's actually really important to me. So even though there's that feeling of, oh, maybe I should have done this thing, or Bennett this place? Well, life is too short. Sometimes for that.

Kathleen Shannon 47:33
My one of my best friends, she always says, You get to choose your choices, like you choose your choice. Sure. And that's really helped me with the fear of missing out is okay, I could be building up a side hustle in the amount of time that I spend working out. But you know what I choose my choices like, I'm not going to feel bad about this. And even the mom guilt stuff, ya know what I choose my choices, my kid is going to an awesome daycare, even if he will, even if it wasn't awesome. Like, I'm not going to apologize for it. Because I'm trying to do the work that fulfills me as well. So we're all choosing our choices. And I think the more you can own it and not feel bad about comparison or fear of missing out, the better, you're going to be able to focus your efforts in the work that you are doing.

Rebecca Jarvis 48:14
Yeah, if you're not present in whatever that thing is, then you are definitely missing out. I've I tried. That's why I do try really hard to be present. I also think, to the Choose your choices point, you can make a change if you ultimately decide that whatever the thing is, in most cases, not every case. But in most cases, if you decide the thing that I've doubled down on is not the most valuable thing for my time, then it's time to make a change. Okay, can

Kathleen Shannon 48:43
we get really practical with your scheduling for a second? Or even just staying mentally organized? Like, do you? I'm talking real practical. Are you in Google Calendar? Like

Rebecca Jarvis 48:52
wait? I have an Outlook calendar? Or what are you doing? Everybody sends me invites. So this is here's my calendar. So everybody sends me invites. For example, I had a call that I needed to make today. That was because I needed to return something. So I have that phone call here with the number the confirmation number. So I try and schedule everything on my Outlook calendar so that at least it's all in one place. So your calendars also acting as your task list. Yeah, I use my great point. Yeah, I use my calendar as my task list. I schedule exercise in my day, I schedule. Everything that's going to happen is on this calendar. And

Kathleen Shannon 49:30
then do you all have a gym here though? Okay, yeah, there's

Rebecca Jarvis 49:33
one across the street that I can go to. There's one near my apartment, and I go to classes, random classes here and there.

Kathleen Shannon 49:39
And so then are you going to do your makeup twice a day? All right. I love this question. Really

Rebecca Jarvis 49:48
great question because my day starts so early and they do full hair and makeup. What I do is I remove my foundation and all of that makeup. I leave my makeup on and then I shower post workout. But I don't wash my hair yet. I know for some of you, that's gross girl, it's fine, whatever. So, so I am then I re I put my foundation on after however, I am in makeup in transit person, which means after, we are so lucky we have GMA hair and makeup in the morning. But after that point, I oftentimes will on the train, be the Girl on the Train, doing her own makeup. Because once I try and use transit as an opportunity, I listened to your podcast. I read books, I read articles, and I do my makeup. I'm that girl. I love it.

Emily Thompson 50:36
I like on the train on the subway. Is that in your calendar? That? No, it's

Rebecca Jarvis 50:41
not in my calendar. But I do I have. I'm very specific. I do my makeup the same way every time so that it doesn't there's no reinvention. It's

Kathleen Shannon 50:49
nice. Okay. Yeah. So then whenever it comes to transit, I mean, it seems like you have a tight schedule Are you in this is something I didn't do early on in my career, it was considered that buffer time in between meetings to even just use the bathroom, some food to get to one place to another, we both work from home. So it's a lot easier, we're just always where we need to be, which is great.

Emily Thompson 51:12
Totally do like scheduling that five minutes in between to use the bathroom and take a breathing break. Not in your calendar.

Rebecca Jarvis 51:20
I don't have a breathing break and my calendar. However, when I schedule things, I try to always be cognizant that there's got to be like five minutes of buffer to run to the bathroom or drink some coffee.

Kathleen Shannon 51:32
Okay, so we got really practical, I went to now get broaden out a little bit. We've been talking a lot about success. So how do you define success these days?

Rebecca Jarvis 51:42
The bottom line for me is happiness. Am I happy? How do you know

Kathleen Shannon 51:48
that? Am I it's a good struggle. I mean, most days, I just feel like sometimes I'm so in the grind and so focused that if I start thinking about whether I'm happy or not, then I start to like kind of get miserable. Well, maybe don't think I know. I do not think about it. I

Rebecca Jarvis 52:06
look, I think there's I think there's a lot of value in being introspective. At the same time. I think that

Unknown Speaker 52:13

Rebecca Jarvis 52:16
you can overthink it. Yes, you can. You know, I feel so grateful that I have the amount of things happening in my life right now that I do. I am overall really grateful about this career are there days where I'm like, I'm exhausted, I'm gonna burn out what all the time. But when you look at it, as a collective of all of these different things, my family, my friends, I feel overall really happy. And I think for me, I don't feel stuck, which is a pretty big deal. If you feel like you're stuck, that should be I think an indicator if you feel I've been at places in my career where I felt like I was in a box. And every day, I would work myself up to say, Okay, I'm going in, you're going to climb out of the box today, you're going in, you need a fresh start. If that's where you are in your career, I would say I've been there. And it's a good time to think about how to get somewhere else. But I define success as that freedom to explore and create and have curiosity and to also be surrounded by people who lift me up and feel like genuine relationships where I again, like I feel this gratitude, I have these real relationships in my life, my friends are my real friends. That's a huge thing.

Kathleen Shannon 53:38
I love that so much. You know, one of the things that we think about all the time is your dream day, you know what that looks like? And so for me, and I love the broad stroke definition. But whenever I get down into my dream day, whenever I look at the tasks sometimes like, Ah, this is hard. It's always gonna be those things. But then overall, I mean, look, look at it's moments like these, where I'm like, Look, yeah, we're in ABC Studios, recording with Rebecca, this is incredible.

Rebecca Jarvis 54:06
And I feel the same way with you being here sincerely. And I think that it's also really important to take stock of those moments. Something I did early on in my career that if I could go back and change something, there was always that what's next feeling because you are hustling and you don't want to let a single moment go to waste. You don't want to let a single opportunity not become something else. And if I could go back, I would keep hustling. But I would enjoy that moment more.

Kathleen Shannon 54:35
Yes. Because you know, this is something else I want to say for our listeners who are like, Whoa, I wouldn't be doing that because I certainly had those moments and I still have those moments. I mean, I'm sure you have those moments we all have those moments

Emily Thompson 54:45
you need to schedule in those breathing breaks. I know but guys on your calendar.

Unknown Speaker 54:50
I don't actually

Kathleen Shannon 54:51
but I should. I definitely had pinch me moments at the you know, at the infancy of my career, like even just be able to go onto my back porch and potted plant in the middle of the day. Yeah, that was like a pinch me like, I can't believe that this is my life and so sorry, I was just like therapy session, I would define happiness by just that. Like, I can't believe that I get to live this life, you know an ego through some of the hard things so like my kid is throwing a fit. I still can't believe I get to live this life. How cool is that? Okay, so where can our listeners find no limits and more about you?

Rebecca Jarvis 55:26
So wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find no limits with Rebecca Jarvis and anywhere on social media, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Snapchat, I am at Rebecca Jarvis everywhere.

Emily Thompson 55:38
And what makes you feel most boss being here with you?

Kathleen Shannon 55:43

Emily Thompson 55:45
you win. I love you best answer ever. Thank you.

Kathleen Shannon 55:52
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Emily Thompson 57:27
do the work. Be boss, and we'll see you next week.