Episode 179

Pitching & PR with Brigitte Lyons

June 5, 2018

Let’s talk about pitching and PR—because it’s so important for your business, but you need to make sure you’re doing it right! We’ve got our PR rep, Brigitte Lyons, on the show today to talk about setting up your business for PR, pitching best practices, and some insider tips on how to craft the perfect pitch to get some awesome exposure for your business.

Learn More about the Topics Discussed in this Episode
This Episode Brought to You By:
"PR cannot save a failing business. If you don't have the systems in the back end of your business and proof of concept, a major PR opportunity can actually break your business."
- Brigitte Lyons

Discussed in this Episode

  • What does a day in the life of a PR Rep look like
  • The overlap of PR, marketing, and branding
  • Why starting with strong systems & processes is important when hiring a PR
  • Pitching yourself when you're just starting out
  • Crafting your pitch email for getting on a podcast
  • Followups on pitches
  • Timing of pitching with a launch

More from Brigitte Lyons

More from Kathleen

Braid Creative

More from Emily

Almanac Supply Co.


Kathleen Shannon 0:01
Hello and welcome to being boss,

Emily Thompson 0:04
a podcast for creative entrepreneurs. I'm Emily Thompson.

Brigitte Lyons 0:08
And I'm Kathleen Shannon. I am Bridget Lyons and I am being boss.

Emily Thompson 0:17
Today we're talking about PR and pitching yourself to get on podcasts with Bridget Lyons. As always, you can find all the tools, books and links we reference on the show notes at WWW dot being boss dot club.

Kathleen Shannon 0:31
I know that we have a lot of aspiring entrepreneurs and side hustlers listening to the show. So if you're sitting there thinking about becoming your own boss, there is a good chance that your idea of how challenging it will be, won't exactly match up with the reality of how challenging it's actually going to be. Now, this is not an attempt to talk you out of it. In fact, it is the exact opposite. Because there is so much amazing help available you've just got to know where to look. So our friends at freshbooks make it ridiculously easy to do cloud accounting for small businesses and they have helped millions of folks just like you make the brave leap to being their own bosses. With freshbooks you can create and send perfect looking invoices in less than 30 seconds. You can also take photos of your receipts from your phone, which makes managing your expenses a million times easier. Now to see how freshbooks can support you and becoming your own boss we want to offer our listeners an unrestricted 30 day free trial Just go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section.

Emily Thompson 1:40
Bridget Lyons is the founder of be a boutique PR and marketing agency that helps forward thinkers and purpose driven companies refine their message and reach their ideal audience with their work. Her agency works predominantly with emerging thought leaders on book launches podcast bookings, and honing their message. But she's also a big proponent of pitching yourself and then it's an essential ball skill, whether you want to get more visibility for your work or simply land more client projects.

Kathleen Shannon 2:11
Bridgette, thank you so much for joining us today.

Brigitte Lyons 2:14
Oh my gosh, this is like such an incredible treat. When I started working with you guys. I never imagined that I would actually also get to be on your podcast.

Kathleen Shannon 2:23
Well, of course. So I should tell our listeners that you are our PR Okay, can we just clear something up? I hear people say like, how do I refer to you? Do I say like this? Because I hear some people just say this is our PR or my PR but do I say this my PR gal? This is my PR person? Like how do you say it? Who are you? Bridgette it's so hard? Do you know what I'm talking about?

Brigitte Lyons 2:48
I totally know what you're talking about. And like another word people use that I've never used for myself, but I've started using a little bit as publicists, but I hate that fucking word. Um, I think you should just call me like the PR rep for your book.

Emily Thompson 3:01
Pr Rep. Okay, because I totally call you PR girl. With that now that I'm saying it out loud is probably not the most boss thing I could call you. Yeah, but PR rep sounds good. I like

Brigitte Lyons 3:12
or like the head of our PR agency. Who even this there are more than me working on you. Although you guys only just see me and even if my agency is only like three people, you know. Fancy Pants. I

Kathleen Shannon 3:25
like it. I got called out by Jessica Moran the other day by saying like I hired a stylist to help me with my wardrobe and she's like, Oh my gosh, you sound like such such a snob. I would feel like way more snobby, being like Well, my publicists. Okay, so you're our publicist, or the head of our pr, pr. Can

Brigitte Lyons 3:42
you see our rap before publicist? publicist? I don't like it. She

Emily Thompson 3:45
doesn't like that one. Kathleen, don't use that one.

Brigitte Lyons 3:47
That one is very Samantha Jones. And I feel like it's a publicist is less than what I do they have less skills.

Kathleen Shannon 3:55
Oh, okay. Okay, well, let's go ahead and dive in. So you're helping us with the PR for our book. But let's go ahead and talk about and now that we've defined what to call you kind of, let's talk about what you do. So what does someone like yourself do? Yeah, well, I can't believe that I record.

Emily Thompson 4:22
Yes, and good. Please continue. Well, I

Brigitte Lyons 4:26
hope I don't get any hate mail from that. So let me kind of expand on that. And what what it is that somebody like me a PR person does. So one of the things that we do in PR is we work a lot on our clients kind of general communication strategy. And so when I think about actually the difference between a PR person and like what a publicist is, or you know, somebody who is just doing straight publicity and media relations work, is that a PR person ultimately is really focused on your positioning your market positioning, and this has been changing a lot. So PR people historically have focused very tightly on traditional media relations. My background is in like corporate and actually political PR. And so I did work with like Chicago Tribune, and CNN and Bloomberg in my past life. And those are the kinds of things that people usually associate PR with. But the media is changing and who we view as influential to our audiences are changing. And so nowadays, we're looking at people's reputation management, their messaging in relation to a lot of different kinds of audiences, and trying to coordinate all of that. Another thing that I think a PR person does is, in some ways, serves this very, like bipolar role for our clients. So on one hand, I have to be your biggest fan and ultimate cheerleader, right, like we need to get really hyped about the work that you're doing. And on the other hand, I can't buy into all the hype, right, because if I'm going to be positioning you and selling you, whether it's to the media, or an influencer, or even helping you messaging your own audience, whatever it is, like, we need to also take a really hard and realistic look at how the audience is perceiving things and what they are really going to care about. And so sometimes I feel like my job is almost that of a translator of like, what are the things we as a team are most hyped and excited about? And then why are other people going to care? And it does, it really feels a little bit like a split split personality, sometimes when we're working with clients. You know,

Kathleen Shannon 6:28
one thing that I like about working with you, and just our relationship, and even Emily and I, we experienced this, as we were writing the book and giving it to our editor and our agent, we like kind of took off the kid gloves, we were like, just give it to a straight, what's working, what's not, we'd almost rather know, in a lot of ways, and especially I found, I really want to know whenever it comes to my inner circle, and the people that I trust the most. So other branding aid or other branding experts that I'm close with. So I'm talking about my sister here, over at braid, or you know, Emily, whenever we're writing together, and now you Bridget whenever it comes to helping us handle RPR I think that it's so important just to be able to say, hey, this isn't gonna work, right? Or this is an interesting or we need to figure out really why this matters. And so one thing that I want to just encourage our listeners to do is to find that team of support around you that is going to tell you like it is and these people are not haters, they're not cynics. They're the people who have shared goals with you, and want to do the best work possible to make those goals happen. So I want to come back to you, Bridget, and what it is that you are doing all day. So like what are some of the roles and duties involved with your job? Like what on any given day? What is your job look like?

Brigitte Lyons 7:43
Yeah, well, it's kind of complex, because I'm in this position right now where I'm building up an agency. And so I have kind of all the role of managing and marketing a business and managing a team, which I actually love that part of it. And then I'm still doing a lot of the day to day client work. And so those are very, I tried to actually batch those out by day. So I'm, you know, not doing all those. So I'll tell you what the client work because your audience probably knows a lot more about what it's like to run a business than what it is like to do PR for a client. So on any given day, what I'm doing is researching kind of different opportunities and staying up to date with all the different kinds of media that are coming out. My company has transitioned in the last few years. So we used to do more traditional PR outreach to like Fast Company, entrepreneur, Forbes, and things like that. And we almost exclusively do podcast bookings right now. So booking our clients on podcasts like yours or other podcasts like that. And the reason I made that switch is because one of the things we also do for our clients is monitor and track for the results that they're getting. So we'll look at how much website traffic Did you get from an interview or a contribution? How many people signed up for your list, if they're really sophisticated, how many of those people actually bought. And what we found is that people listening to podcasts were such better audiences, they were so much more engaged that our clients are getting better results. And this has been borne out I've been lucky enough to be privy to some behind the scenes conversations from some people who are like major businesses that we all know and recognize and major best selling books and they all talk about podcast right now as being the thing that moves the needle needle for them. So even though traditionally PR you think about these flashy or outlets, it's honestly the podcast that do the most so that's a lot of my day to day work is just listening to podcast thinking about what they need a lot of networking in that and then storytelling, you know, figuring out like just before this interview, actually I had a another client came out on the productive flourishing podcast with Charlie Gilkey and I was listening to the interview because it's like, well, I've been pitching her for a while. Maybe something came up in this interview that I can use that's a little fresh, you know, so I'm always doing things like that like tweaking and enhancing what we can do. So honestly, my It looks like a lot of walking around with headphones, while I'm doing chores, running to my notebooks to write things down. And then just tons of emails, sending out lots of emails, very glamorous with my cats.

Kathleen Shannon 10:12
I definitely want to dig into podcasting and pitching yourself for podcasts. I mean, we get hundreds of pitches a week. And so we can certainly share that side of things like being the platform that PR reps are trying to get their clients on to. So I want to dig into that a little bit. Before that, no, I wanted to talk about kind of the blend between PR, marketing and branding, because there is like such an overlap. And I feel like that's for the three of us even that's like where we flourish and really get along and we speak all the same language. They're like Emily's busting out our marketing plan. And I'm really thinking about our branding, and how it's going to look and feel and even the positioning of what we're writing. And then Bridget, you are also thinking about the angle and the story and also the positioning and the marketing. And so if you feel like you're a gatekeeper for all of those things, are you thinking about how we leverage those assets, and like gathering all those assets and seeing how we best put it out there? Like, kind of describe to me the difference and where you really feel like you fit in there?

Brigitte Lyons 11:18
Yes, I am so glad that you brought this up. Because this is one of those other ways that I think PR has had to change. Especially with the advent of things like influencer marketing, or online media. When I was working in the agency, I don't know, 13 years ago, I had an opportunity to join the emerging digital branch of the PR agency. And I remember somebody in the practice being like, well, I don't understand how we're going to track results with digital PR. Are you kidding me like, this is better. Like you're actually, I think that actually they were afraid of what was going to happen when clients had more data, you know, is really what was going on there. And so now that we have more data and more ability to track, our role is much more integrated than it ever has been before. So we've always been really involved in the positioning and messaging and storytelling side. And I do think there's a lot of overlap, like the best PR teams are integrated fully within marketing and often within sales. So it's gonna be better when you have somebody thinking about external audience perception and reputation and things involved in those conversations. But now we're also looking at things like funnels, and SEO and optimization. So a big part of what I do for my clients are actually like in the small details. So I'll give you a really simple example. One of the things that I instantly can help people with is if you go on into an interview. So if you're on a podcast, at the end of every show, the host is going to ask you like where can we find you? What's next, right? The worst thing you can possibly do is rattle off like every single social media platform you have and your website and give people a million options. And it's true of all media opportunities, but especially the podcast, you have 45 minutes, maybe an hour to talk about your area of expertise, people are there with you, right, they're really going there with you, they're really engaged what you have to say. So instead of giving them a million options, you should give them a very clear invitation of something they can go download or checkout next, that ties into what you've just talked about. And so one of the early things that I'll do with people is map out, what is that customer journey like and what would be the landing page and what's the funnel that's warming them up. And so those are the ways where it totally gets a blurred line. Because that can be somebody like me, it could be somebody like either of you. And when your agencies do like, there's just a lot of overlap. And I think integration between all of those parts is so incredibly important these days. And where you actually see the results like that's the unglamorous kind of behind the scenes stuff that really makes it work. I also

Emily Thompson 13:57
want to point out here how important it is like because there is such an integration, because like hiring someone like you plugs into more than one place in your business, how important it is to have a really strong understanding of what those pieces of your business are. I know, you know, in hiring you, if we hadn't had those things in place, you would not have been nearly as effective as you have been because we had that really strong foundation there. So I just want to plug in here that like a PR person isn't here to solve all of those problems for you. They're here to plug in where it is that where you already have this firm foundation and so that they can take that and run with it. Because you're not here to solve all those other gross problems.

Brigitte Lyons 14:42
Oh my gosh, PR cannot save a failing business. You guys like everybody thinks that like, Oh, I'm going to work with a PR person. They're going to get me an Oprah and it's going to save my business. And that is not true. If you don't have the systems in the backend of your business and proof of concept. A major PR opportunity can actually break your business. I was

Kathleen Shannon 15:00
about to say like with the Oprah example, we think about that all the time. Do we have the capacity to handle an appearance on Oprah? At this point? Yes, because we have a book to sell. And then after they buy the book, we have more funnels where they can continue to buy into. And we have the system set up where it's all completely automated. But I think Tim Ferriss talks about this as well. He's mentioned people before like specific vas and tank their business, they got one star reviews, because they couldn't respond to all the inquiries that they were getting fast enough. And you're absolutely right, like, Yes,

Brigitte Lyons 15:32
yeah. And that's actually the Oprah effect. That is the name for that. So there's a really famous case of I think it's like a cupcake store in New York, that she mentioned on air. And so many people went to it, they sold out, they had no product and their business actually shut down because of all the negative Yelp reviews. So there is a thing like you need to be able to manage the increased exposure. Now that said, you can always start small, right, you don't have to start with Oprah. In fact, these days, you can't Oprah doesn't break people anymore. So that those days are kind of passed. But you can always start small and leverage your way up. But like to Emily, back to your point, like it's totally true. And you guys are an example of like, the absolute best clients to work with, because you have a strong team backing you, you have a really strong idea of what your message is, you have a strong brand. And you're able to take an opportunity and, and run within. And I think a big part of it, too, is an attitude, right? You're like willing to show up. Because I've worked with lots of clients who, you know, I've come and said, okay, we need a landing page. And I've recommended and they have an attitude where they're like, okay, I can do that like when you need it. But if you're going to be in that place where you're going to allow a sort of your inner critic to bubble up at every step and paralyze you, then you're not going to be able to make the most of the opportunities, and I'll probably be really miserable for you. And so you need to have that kind of, I'm just going to try this, I'm going to experiment along the way and see how it goes. And I'm a real big believer and tracking the results. I have this like really crazy fancy dashboard with all these link things, and I do tiny tests, I'll change the subject line on one a couple of emails and see what difference that does, or the first sentence or a follow up is key. So I'll change the follow up and test and then I, you know, have a document where it's like, here's all the tests that are working. So just know to that. Like, it doesn't have to be like you don't have to be at the level of you guys like being boss before you start. But you have to have this attitude where you can handle some tasks you can handle just trying things out. And like you guys always said you're you're ready to do the work.

Kathleen Shannon 17:40
I think that one of the things that you talked about, and this might be a good segue into podcasting and getting on podcasts, and how that can really move the needle is one that Oprah isn't necessarily breaking the news anymore whenever it comes to really cool brands or products. And I think that it really is happening on this more grassroots level. And so even us, we all three of us decided together to have a being boss launch team, and the people on our launch team aren't necessarily what you might think of as you know, capital II influencers. But we know that even if they have 100 Instagram followers and they're promoting our book, that their conversion to those 100 people is going to be higher than what even might be blasted by like a huge capital I influencer though we love our capital I influencers we love you Please share our book. Yes, do us all a favor, go share it right now. But part of it is that you have to have a process for putting yourself out there and that you have to make showing up a part of your system that you put as much time and energy into as you would writing a newsletter, or any of the other things that you do in your business that are like marketing and outreach. So can you talk a little bit about creating a system or a process for pitching yourself regularly?

Brigitte Lyons 19:02
Yeah, when people are just starting out, I actually recommend exactly what you're saying is just a really low key process. And so the place I typically recommend is just setting aside a couple of hours a week. So maybe it's two hours Tuesday morning to pitch pick one and pitch one. And so I think podcasts and we can talk about why but they're the easiest place to start. And so when I say pick one and pitch one I mean, take your phone, look in the podcast app search a keyword. So being boss, you know, search the word creative entrepreneur, like what is your identity and a business owner, find a podcast that interviews people like you, and then send them an email with a show idea. And I'm sure you guys I know you guys want to talk about what that looks like, what that pitch looks like. But that's the sort of thing that you can do. In two hours. Get it done. It's very low key. One of the things that will happen is that I'll hear from people and they'll get stuck on like, I don't know who to reach out to right. I hear from people all the time, like, it's not my job to know all the podcasts out there, and it absolutely 100% is not. But once you find one or two, then you can look and see what the related shows are that are being referred to you. And you can just start really small with a couple and you don't need a list of 20 to 50. To start. And for something like what we're doing, where there's a book launch, you know, we're pitching our list, well, it was podcasters, it was influencers, like 150 200, strong, right? Don't do that. Don't try to think about a big campaign or something crazy like that, if you're just starting out, just flex that muscle, because pitching is flexing your self promotion muscle. And that feels really gross for most of us, right. And it's something that the more you do it and the more you normalize it, the better you'll get at it. And it's a skill, whether you want to be in a podcast or selling more products, like it's an essential skill for running a business you cannot get around it.

Kathleen Shannon 20:56
So one of the things that I think is really important is maybe even contacting your friends first. So many people are starting podcasts, and your friends are probably looking for guests, especially if they're starting out small. And this can give you really great practice, it can give you practice speaking on a podcast, which isn't. It's It's so interesting. And I didn't think of it this way to start off with whenever I was having conversations on podcast, but it's somewhere in between, like a coffee chat, and a full on keynote presentation. And it can, you know, run the gamut between the two, just depending on your style. My style is definitely conversational. I can hop on on any podcast and just pretend like it's conversation and not even think about the fact that it's blasting out to, you know, 1000s of people, for better or worse. I think that that's a great place to still make me nervous in the middle of this interview. Whenever you were talking about like listening to, you know, your clients on podcast, I was like, Oh, no, no bridge is gonna listen to my podcast and give me some coaching some training, which is also again, fine, because that's the that's the kind of person I want the feedback from right? Is that trusted inner circle? I don't care about the hater giving me one star. I care about that, you know, trusted inner circle. Oh, speaking of one star, Bridgette, can you share your tip, this is kind of a tangent, your tip for not looking at one stars or looking at five stars, but doing your research whenever it comes to pitching. Yeah, talking about?

Brigitte Lyons 22:26
Well, just in terms of like how to look at the ratings and reviews? Or

Kathleen Shannon 22:30

Brigitte Lyons 22:31
yeah, this is a funny thing. Because like, in most of my PR career, I've had access to a database, I've always used something called decision it cost like 1000s of dollars, but you get access to like, what some of these reaches. And with podcasts, they don't release that information to you at all. You know, if it's a bigger podcast with some sponsors, that's where I'm looking for you might feel to get their media kit. And so I use ratings and reviews is like a proxy for engagements. And so I actually don't really look at the star level, although now you're making me think maybe I should do that more. But I don't usually do that I just look at like, how many ratings and reviews do people have? Because, you know, that to me just shows how engage their audiences and also how savvy podcasters and marketing so you guys know that like ratings and reviews, getting a big number of them as a special sauce to getting your podcast shown and suggested to more people. And so if I'm booking a client on a podcast, like I want them to be on a podcast where they are also thinking like marketers and promoting their show, of course, that's the point. So I use that as a proxy and a stand in for engagement. And I just kind of set number and benchmark. So we were just saying that you're just starting out. I love the tip about reaching out to your friends. Another thing too, if you've never done an interview, that's the level where I'll say like, okay, start with podcasts that maybe have around 20 ratings and reviews, it shows that they have some traction. But that's a lower number. It's not a huge podcast that's unreachable, they're probably not getting as many pitches too. So you're not cutting through as much noise, then a client that's starting to leverage up so you can kind of ladder your way up. Once you get some interviews, go up to 40 and then 60. And then like 80 to 100 is a nice benchmark. And then for a really big client, I'll look at only like 100 or above. But so those can be a really good way to just think about, you know, I I'm just gonna say like, if I have a client who's never been on a podcast before, I'm not going to pitch them to you guys, right? Like I'm going to start somewhere lower show that they can give an interview that they're really engaging and you ladder them up from there, although I will say on the other flip side, like I have a client who her name is Janine Blackwell. And right out of the gate. She was on Entrepreneur on Fire, which is like one of the top business podcasts out there. But she had this past business and this huge track record. So I mean, you can do that. But you definitely want to I think it helps to have some media first and some experience and also, not to Feel like you talked about prep, like, my very first interview is with this huge audience like, imagine all the like, Oh, that's gonna come up for you as you prep for that, I think that might be a little bit of a roadblock for people to.

Emily Thompson 25:14
Yeah, I want to talk about prepping really quickly. And I think we'll probably end up jumping back down to this. But since you just brought it up, one of my favorite things about working with you is how much you've helped us prepare for the podcast that we've been on. And also, like another side of that is how much Kathleen and I can always tell if someone who we are interviewing is prepared. So we can we talk about this preparedness for a second and how freaking important it is.

Brigitte Lyons 25:44
Totally. So what I what I do for you guys just explain people listening is create this media prep document, where it's shows everything from the clients universally love this, it's like, the background on what the podcast is a couple of personal tidbits about them, because maybe that will come up what the interview is going to be about because I'm pitching the client. So they don't always know there's different topics and expected questions. And this PrEP is so freaking important. There is nothing worse than going on a podcast. And at the very end, the host says something you like so what's your favorite book, and you're like, cuz you've never listened to the damn podcast, and they catch you off guard, right? Like that, it's just clear to them, it's clear to the audience, the audience is listening, because they're fans of the podcast. So if you do that, you've just lost a lot of goodwill. So it's really important to prep. But I like to balance this because you know, I'm a professional of systems without over prepping. So I'll listen to at least one full episode and then the beginning and the end of a couple others because those common questions are usually at the beginning of the end. And another thing that I do, which you can do, too, is so just to let you guys know, in my own Asana board, I have a huge checklist with everything that gets booked. And from when an interview is booked to when the interview goes live, there are 11 things on the checklist for me. And one of the things on the checklist is to send like your media kit, your bio, and then some suggested interview topics or questions to the podcaster. And so I always make sure that they have at the very minimum, like you know, a bio that is really easy for them to use as an intro, which is kind of different than the bio on your website, right? Think about how somebody is going to introduce you. And then either suggested questions or topics. Or sometimes just simply like for you guys with a book, I've been sending people a couple of your podcast episodes, you have some minisodes talking about your book and the process. So I send those to people like you might want to check out this minisode and the book page, I send like three links over. And so I'm also helping the podcaster prep so they know what to talk to you about because a good show, they're going to do a lot of prep. And so if you give them the information, you can steer the interview the way you want to go. So you can prep yourself by thinking through what those questions you're going to get. And you can prep them through the materials you give them first.

Kathleen Shannon 28:09
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Brigitte Lyons 29:05
Yeah. So this is something that, like I said, I've just been tracking and monitoring for my own clients. And then, about a year ago, I stumbled upon some research by Edison research, which is just this huge research group. And they did kind of a podcast survey because there's not a lot of data out there. And one of the really interesting pieces of data I found was that 85% of the people who start an episode, listen to the full episode. I like you guys can see this. Yeah, there's like Yeah. Yeah. So like, imagine me on your show right now. 85% of the people who've tuned in are now going to listen to our full however long 45 minutes hour together, right? So just imagine that you have the opportunity to share your passion, your expertise, your story with a brand new audience for 45 freaking minutes like that is so Powerful they are. So they're with you. So I think that that like one stat alone kind of shows the proof of the you know, the whole process because the engagement levels for podcasts are just unmatched. Compare that if an article and Fast Company comes across your Facebook feed, you might click on it, if you're lucky, you'll spend a minute on that article before you click on something else. So that engagement level, you just can't compare. And another thing that is surprising is that more than half of people actually listen to podcasts at home, not in the car. So you know, if I'm sharing something with you, or I give you my URL at the end or whatever, you're probably at home, you can go look that up, right, you've just listened to me for 45 minutes, you're going to be more inclined to do that than in any other way. So this is why podcasts I think, are so insanely powerful.

Emily Thompson 30:50
High five, Kathleen, as we all go through podcasts, I

Kathleen Shannon 30:56
think that the world you know, as fast as things are moving, and there's so much more content out there we are craving these deeper dives. And to be able to spend an hour with somebody, I even think about how I reached a turning point where now I can hardly Watch interviews that are less than five minutes like on a late night show. And five minutes is a long time for someone on a late night show. And I've noticed even more recently that like James Corden, will get 12 minutes with somebody and they're, they're getting longer and longer. And I wonder if part of that's because of this trend, even in podcasting is kind of informing other pieces of media to say like, hey, hang on to that interview just a little bit longer. Let's chat a little bit longer people are craving these conversations that go just a little bit deeper. I,

Brigitte Lyons 31:45
I could not agree more. I think that podcasts are proving to the media, really, that people can go deep with you on concepts that it's a little bit, it's easier for a podcaster because the audiences can be super niche, right? So something that is on a major network needs to apply to such an audience to the production. I mean, there's reasons for that. But I think that's also part of the engagement is that there is a podcast out there, I do not care what your business is what you do, there is a podcast that will talk to you about it, it is insane the level of depth that you can get with a podcast in terms of finding something that speaks to your interests. And so that's part of the engagement, right? these stats are there, because there's a voice, there's a personality, there's the deep conversation. And because the best podcast, the ones that are most focused are really, I think hyper focused on curating content and guests that are good for their audiences and understanding their audiences. And you have to protect that. That's a little bit of the conflict, right? Like I'm out there pitching people. But your job as a podcaster is to really protect your audience and make sure that they have the best experience possible. And hopefully, a good pitch helps you do that

Kathleen Shannon 33:01
has been the biggest lesson learned in the past couple of years. If I could go back and know how much your guests that are on your show shape what your podcast becomes. I mean, and I think that we've done a good job. I'm so proud of all the guests that we've had. But we have certainly become a way more intentional about who we're having on the show as we realize how valuable this platform is and also how much we care about our listeners and really giving them an experience that I mean, they're going to give us an hour plus of their time, we're going to try and make it worth it for sure. Okay, so speaking to people who want to be on podcasts, they want to get on more shows. Let's talk about what makes a really great pitch. And I think that we could all jam on this a little bit because we get a lot of pitches. I mean probably how many do we get a week like 100 200

Emily Thompson 33:54
probably easily 100 I'm sure

Kathleen Shannon 33:57
and I've noticed I've started getting them in my Instagram people have found my personal email I mean people are trying to get let's

Emily Thompson 34:03
talk about how to do this correctly and incorrectly guys because that may be what this conversation becomes.

Brigitte Lyons 34:12
I will say it has been such an enlightening experience for me because it's part of our book launch process. I was helping you guys with influencer outreach which made it necessary for me to get into your inbox your being best inbox and so now I have been able to peek at some of the podcasts pitches you get and things like that and the more clients I work with that actually have podcast I have another client who forwards me all of her worst pitches on the regular.

Emily Thompson 34:37
I know I love that.

Brigitte Lyons 34:39
You know what I'm This is so shady but it makes me feel so freakin good about my good. It's like shocking. I just saw this pitch the other day and I was like so there's something that I call Should I call it like the Tim Ferriss pitch I swear to god he blogged about this at one point like and it's the two cents pitch It's the like, you know, I'm gonna pitch you in two sentences because I'm such a hot shot and you should have me and maybe it's not Tim Ferriss, I swear to God, I saw it on his blog at one point. But Tim Ferriss, if you're listening to this, and it wasn't you, and I'm shitting on you, I'm really sorry.

Kathleen Shannon 35:13
Tim Ferriss, if you're listening to this, you can send us a tusen. And so you can just send us an Instagram post, whenever you want to send us your welcome on the show. Well, Kathleen,

Brigitte Lyons 35:25
that's exactly my point, which is like, if you're already famous, you can do that. But the majority of people that I work with are not famous. And I think there's this thing to where in our internet business worlds, one of the things I often talk to my clients about is like the difference between internet famous within your niche, and being like real world famous, like People Magazine, famous, right, and that, like the people that you really are admiring and pitching on the grand scheme of things, the space between you is not that far and approaching them as equals in terms of expertise. And what you have to bring is actually a big part of what makes a big pitch is like, there's a difference between a compliment and a grovel. You know, and I think though, that the rest of us mere mortals, do you have to go the extra mile to really communicate value?

Kathleen Shannon 36:15
Yeah, for sure. So let's talk about communicating that value. How is the best way to craft that email? What does it look like? Can you give us a formula?

Emily Thompson 36:23
And how do you deliver it?

Unknown Speaker 36:25
in an email?

Kathleen Shannon 36:28
Not over Instagram,

Brigitte Lyons 36:29
not over Instagram, not overdo? No, I will say that I have been guilty of like, hunting high and low to find an email address to send to somebody I've even like you can search within Twitter, somebody's twitter feed for the word email. But that's because not everyone has an email or a contact form on their website, you guys have an email address on your website, it is not hard to find. So there's no excuse for going around that. And I think it's really important when a podcaster has a clearly defined process. So I'll give you some tips and in my process, but if you go to some of these website, and on their podcast page or their contact page, they say, here's how you contact me about the podcast. respect that, like most of the people who have podcasts are running other businesses, right, like Emily and Kathleen, each have their own businesses and this podcast to run the processes there so that they can manage the pitches coming in and find people for the show. It is not there to block you, it's actually there to help everyone. And so if you find that always follow their directions before you follow any sort of advice you get from me another PR person and other podcasts or I don't care, like respect those instructions,

Kathleen Shannon 37:42
which Yeah, because if a pitcher ends up in my email, or in my Instagram, like my personal email, it's gonna fall through the cracks,

Emily Thompson 37:48
I delete. I straight up delete them, like I'm sorry, not sorry. But if it if it doesn't go where it needs to go, which is the email address on our being boss website, then I don't even read them. I delete them.

Brigitte Lyons 38:01
Because in a way they just showed you. Like, they don't respect you, I think I mean, there's so I had you guys put like not a podcast contact on the press page, and I still get pitches from people. And I'm like it says right there. And I get it from other publicists, which drives me boo. Like, when just a person does that, then often I'll forward it on. But when another publicist I have to admit, sometimes I don't always follow those on I feel bad. But I'm like it says on the thing. And also, yeah, breaking news. It's like, it's To me, it's just such a stunning lack of respect for not for me, but for you, right like that you have a process, it's not hard to find an email address on your site. Now,

Kathleen Shannon 38:44
I will say I do think it's smart before you pitch a podcast to become friends with them on Instagram to be following them to comment on their posts, because that is going to make you a little bit more recognizable so that whenever you do send in the page, it's like, oh, I know this name, oh, this person has actually been engaging with me for a while. And we notice these things, and we're going to pay attention and give you that you know, one leg up whenever it comes to getting on the show, if you've already been an engaged follower. Yeah, people trust the people they know and recognize, right? And so that's like, if you're going to do that kind of like how do I how do I get underneath this? How do I get around this? How do I get you know, my chance? Yes, follow us on all the social engage, you know, do those things. When it comes the actual pitching process, do it through those systems? Okay, so once you do it through those systems, and you're sending the email, what should we have in this email to best get on the show or to get our best chances?

Brigitte Lyons 39:41
Yeah, I'm going to give you that but first, I'm gonna give you a little piece of mindset because the mindset to me is everything. And so before you send the email, it is so important for you to understand that you are not asking for a favor.

Emily Thompson 39:56
Hey, man,

Brigitte Lyons 40:00
Yes, what you are doing is giving somebody who in part has the job of producing content an idea. And so if you can shift that energy from, I'm not asking them to do something for me, but we're going to do something together. That is a mutual benefit to the audience. It totally shifts the energy of what comes next. And it almost doesn't matter what format your email takes, because that will come through. One of the things I hear from people all the time is like, well, I don't want to pitch somebody because it feels like I'm raising my hand. I mean, like, look at me, I'm so great. And interesting. have me on your show.

Kathleen Shannon 40:32
Yeah, that's exactly what you're doing. No, it is not. Raise your hand higher. All

Brigitte Lyons 40:39
right. All right. Fair enough. I guess like for me, I'm like, it's I mean, it is, but it isn't, because it's like, it's not about you, and your personal identity and your worthiness. It's really about the contents and what you're going to give to the audience. And so shifting from, I'm so great to see something so great to teach you or share, I just feel like really shifts the energy of what comes through in your email. So when it comes to an email, I actually have like a hack that I use for getting in the right headspace for putting the email together. So what is it? Yeah, it's reading the shownotes. So even more important to me than listening to a bunch of episodes, before I pitch, I will read a bunch of show notes. Because what you want to do when you're pitching someone is ultimately show them, this interview you're going to do with me is going to create a show that fits like flawlessly within your existing content. And what better way to do that than to model the tone, the structure, the format of your pitch, actually off of there, off of the show notes. And what this also does is it gets you in this headspace of focusing on what the audience is going to take away. And so a lot of pitches focus overly much on social proof, which is important and your story, I usually only devote like one or two sentences to actually a podcast or story and background and social proof. Because guess what we can link to your about page, if they're interested in you, they can go look at more. Ultimately, you want your pitch focused on what the audience is going to get out of it, what you're going to teach or share or a lesson you learned or where you fell and got back up like whatever it is. And so if you read the show notes, you'll like absorb how to put that together. And then you can mirror that in your pitch. Your pitch should be shorter than the standard show notes. But generally, the structure I like to have is, um, you know, introducing kind of what your topic is, and what it is that you're going to address. And then sharing a little bit of background, and then literally being like, here are the things I can speak to the interview and like bulleting out what those takeaways are. And so that's where that really helps you figure out what kind of takeaways Do they like? Like, is it about somebody's background? Is it about a teaching? Is it about? Do they write their show notes? Like, with the bullets, like headlines like are they very, you know, how are they written? It can really help you put your pitch together, because then they can envision it like, Oh, this is going to be perfect. It's going to fit right in.

Emily Thompson 43:02
Yeah, and I will say on this side of things, too, that being short and concise and not like too overly talking about yourself along with bullet points is know what it is that you can lend your expertise on. Those things are the things that make us look at a pitch more than like a whole life story and a whole bunch of links and attachments. Yeah, I've

Brigitte Lyons 43:22
seen you guys get a lot of these pitches where somebody will send like the whole this entrepreneur and their journey and all the places have been featured. But there's no topic. Right? And right, when somebody pitches you that way, they're asking you to do all the work to envision what the show would be about. Because your episodes are topical, right? Your episodes are not focused on like Bridget Lyons, PR expert, they're focused on like, what is my audience going to get out of this? What am I going to teach the bosses in the audience. And if I want to be on your show, or somebody wants to be on your show or any other podcasts, right, this is even down to I mentioned the 20 and unders right? It is not their job to envision that for you. That is your job is to put that forward.

Emily Thompson 44:03
I want to talk about form letters for a second because I feel like there has been tons of info for years at this point about using form letters, but this far into it for us. I can smell a form letter from a mile away. And I find it to be a little bit of a turnoff whenever I'm reading through, you know, 10s or hundreds of pitches. I want the ones that are going to be that are really personable and like super authentic. So what do you have to say about forming out your pitches?

Unknown Speaker 44:37
Oh, man, this

Brigitte Lyons 44:37
is such a hard topic for me particularly because like I manage a bunch of clients and so I have to find efficiencies. And yeah, what you're saying is totally right. And so I think there's always a little bit of push and pull involved in this. One of the things that helps the most with this is that so I teach like classes As you know, I do a mastermind I just wrapped up this mastermind with people teaching them how to book themselves on podcast. So in addition to doing the work, I do a lot of training. And in that training, I almost always include a pitch review process. And it is an absolute requirement when you submit a pitch to me and of course, that you tell me who it's going to. And the reason I do that is because the first pitches you write, have to be directed to specific podcasts. So I think immediately that takes away some of the issue because writing a pitch where you're just thinking, like, Okay, I'm going to pitch myself as an expert. And this is going to go to a bunch of podcasts, it's going to come across like a form letter, it's going to be very disconnected. It's not grounded in actually a real show in the real world. And so already, if you start by picking a podcast, writing a pitch for that one, then picking another one, you can go back to that pitch now and say like it does this work for another one? Because it's similar? Can I modify it and tweak it, you don't have to start from scratch. But I always do spend when I'm sending out a pitch, I don't mass send out pitches, I always spent, you know, sometimes five minutes on the short end, sometimes 30 minutes or two an hour on the long end, but tweaking it and figuring out like what makes it fit and, and sometimes it's just word choice and tone. So if you're being pitched to a bunch of people to talk about your book, here's a really simple example. Right? That is a little bit formulaic. Like we want people talking about your your book. But maybe their audience is creative entrepreneurs, or maybe their audience is like we have booked you on a podcast where she's like, I don't talk to business people, I'm really talking more to people about like life skills and taking risks. And so if I use the words creative entrepreneur and that pitch, she's automatically like, no. So it can be just really simple tweaks to the language and the tone of your pitch to match it for different things. But ultimately, if you start by grounding yourself in a real show, rather than thinking about this very abstract podcast pitch, like what is that? I don't know what that is, it's going to almost automatically solve that problem for you.

Emily Thompson 47:07
Yeah, for sure. At that point, it's less about changing out just the name of the podcast and the form letter, but really looking at some of those, like smaller words that you can, you know, tweak the tone, because agreed, and I say all that to say that I've seen some very bad form letter pitches in my day. But I've also seen some that I knew were form letters that were actually done really, really well. So I am all about, you know, systemising and making things easier, but also in putting in a little extra effort because it absolutely shows.

Brigitte Lyons 47:38
Can we talk a little bit about the compliment here, too?

Kathleen Shannon 47:41
Oh, yes, that's exactly what I mentioned was the compliment, because this is kind of a part of a formula that we see. So we've seen this so many times that we can dissect it where it's, hey, oh, the my favorite bad pitch recently was, hey, Kathleen, or like Holly and Shannon, like, I think they got both of our names wrong. It was like, hey, Holly and Shannon, or, you know, it's so funny. Even on the spine of our book, I got them to put our full names because it was just Thompson and Shannon and I said, I have so many people call me Shannon. I need you to put my first name on there too, if that's okay. And they did. It was awesome.

Emily Thompson 48:20
But not for this this pitch.

Kathleen Shannon 48:23
So they're like hey, Holly and Shannon. I love being bossy. Me too, girl Me too. But but but the good one So hey, Emily and Kathleen. Love being boss. Such a fan of the show. I listened to this most recent episode and this most recent episode, loved blank regurgitating a blurb from the show notes. I loved whenever you said this, and this, and I can tell that they didn't actually listen to it. So it's one thing to get pitch. It's one thing to be told a lie. And like I think that whenever that compliment is a lie it straight up offends me like I can see through it I can I know that you're not actually listening to my show, and that you just pulled those from my show notes. So I'd rather you be authentic and have no idea about me. Or maybe not no idea. But like, I'd rather you tell me what you know, or focus more on yourself or whatever, then spending all this time complimenting me if it's not even real, yes,

Brigitte Lyons 49:17
I actually tell people that a compliment as a risk, right? And, and also, like, we were talking at length, like Emily was talking with the length. So I try to counsel people to eliminate the scroll that if somebody has to scroll down and the email window of your pitch, it's too long. And so sometimes you just don't even have room for a compliment. But I think a compliment is a risk because unless the compliment is incredibly specific and heartfelt and by specific What I mean is not copying and pasting from someone's show notes, but like mentioning something in an episode that moved you in specifically how right or something that you changed or even launching it to say like, God, I just heard Bridget talk about this PR stuff. That's all crap. Like I want to talk to you about it. Like whatever I mean, maybe don't do it exactly like that. But pushing against, like boundaries or what people's preconceptions are, can be a really great way to formulate a pitch. So you can do that. But your your compliments, if you're going to give them have to be concrete specific and really heartfelt and genuine. And exactly when you're getting pitch after pitch after pitch with these, just buttering you up insincere notes, it feels gross, it feels really bad.

Emily Thompson 50:29
Yeah, I think there's a lot to say about about thinking about how many pitches someone gets. And if you are just using a simple form letter and you're not being sincere with your compliments, and you're pitching to a podcast that you know, has 1000s and 1000s of listeners, you can bet they're getting hundreds and hundreds of pitches. And yours is nothing special if you're not putting something special into it.

Kathleen Shannon 50:52
Okay, I want to talk about utilizing connections, because this is something I think is really important. If you are wanting to be on a podcast, look at the previous guests and see if you know anybody or if you know anybody that knows anybody and ask for an introduction. So Bridget, you were talking about in your mastermind class reviewing a pitch to a specific podcast, and I recently had a creative colleague, friend of mine reach out saying like, Hey, I'm about to pitch my first podcast, would you mind even just looking over my letter? And it was two specific podcasts and a podcast that I had been on before? And I was like, Oh, that's been on that podcast before? Do you want me to make an introduction before you make the pitch? And all the things that you're saying one of the tones I know that she took in it is that she was incredibly apologetic. Like, at the end, she was like, I'm so sorry for pitching you. But I have to at least try like you don't get we don't ask for like, let me just try. And I was like, okay, you can just take that part out, you don't have to apologize for asking to be on the show. Um, and then another thing that I noticed, and I'm just using her as a case study without mentioning who it is, but I'm really tailoring it to the audience versus Emily. And I even struggled with this in actually writing the book, like when are we writing about our experience versus making it universal for our audience rooted in our experience and findings? And so just kind of that little tweak as well. anyway? I can't sorry, I don't know what my question was asking for the introduction. Oh, asking for the introduction. So do you think that that is it? Do you think that there's a fine line there? whenever it comes to looking at a podcast and seeing who you're connected with, potentially and asking for an introduction?

Brigitte Lyons 52:33
No, I think I actually did an interview a few years back with Srinivas Rao, who has unmistakable creative podcast, and he talks about that, that the majority of his guests get referred to him by other guests. And it's not a shoo in that you'll be on the show. But it's one of the only ways that he accepts submissions. And this is an important note, like every podcaster, every media person is going to have their own quirks, right? Like Pat Flynn doesn't accept PR pitches, other people don't accept pitches at all. And, and so you can't worry about that, right? You can't worry about every scenario, you can just put your best foot forward. And introduction always helps. I, it's so funny, because it's like it helps. And I also try not to overemphasize it, because most people in my experience, just don't believe that you can cold pitch yourself. And so I'm so in the mindset of like, No, you have to get in this, or you don't have to, but like, if you have these bigger goals that require visibility, then you do have to, like get over that feeling and be willing to put yourself out there. But But yeah, and a big misconception about PR is that like, contacts, right? That the best thing a PR person brings to your project is contacts. And I actually think, I don't think that's true. Um, when I started my PR career, nobody in the agency Shared Contacts, we would pitch projects, and they would send out all agency emails, like, send us all your high level contracts or contacts, and they put it in the proposal to a client, and then they'd never come back to you and ask you to do that. So I have a really kind of cynical view of that. I mean, it helps, right? If you know me, and I send you an email, you're going to open it and read it. But ultimately, it's the story and the angle, I think that that matters the most. And then if you have the contact, it's just like the icing on the cake.

Kathleen Shannon 54:23
I also think that if you're not pitching the actual podcast, now you're pitching your contact, and that is a relationship that you want to protect as well. And you can only have so many asks, right. So I think that that's also something be very cognizant and careful of if you're asking that person a favor, that might be the only favor you ever get to ask them and is it that you want to be on a certain podcast that they were on? And so be aware of that as well?

Brigitte Lyons 54:50
Yeah, that like totally goes back to what we've been doing with your book marketing. Like one of the things that I've been helping you guys with is like, what's the best and most important, ask for that? influencers that you're connected with. And it's so interesting, because in my career, you know, I've had clients be like, have you followed up with this person? Have you followed up with them and like, I had one client who wanted me following up with my contacts, like daily and it's like, you can't, you have to protect your relationship above all. And I always have to look at the long term relationship more than the short term result, like there's always going to be another project. And so there is a total balance between what you need right now and what you can nurture for the future. But on the flip side, like people tend to not ask enough, you know, so it's like, like, Don't be a jerk about it and ask for things that aren't all that important or more than you need. But you know, if you really have something legit, like I had one contact for a long time, who would say, oh, how can I help you? How can I help you and I kind of kept it in my pocket for years. And by the time I went with it asked, in some ways, like the, we didn't have much of a relationship anymore, so there's a danger in that too. Good to

Kathleen Shannon 56:00
keep in mind. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about follow up. So once you've pitched a podcast, this is the other thing that we get, we have an automated response, sorry, I'm not trying to turn this into bitch fast. are welcome to pitch us. It's like everyone

Emily Thompson 56:16
experiences this because no one really knows how this works. Or Most importantly, what all of this is a result of, is people either not reading or not caring when they read something. So it's not a pitch fest. It's just like, Hey, guys, this is how it works in the world. Because speaking of reading,

Kathleen Shannon 56:33
if someone pitches us, they get an automatic reply that says, hey, thanks for contacting us, if you're pitching us for the podcast, and we don't get back to you, it means either a, you aren't a good fit, or B, we're booked out months in advance, which is the case, basically, we're booked out for the rest of 2018 at this point, um, or we've taken note, and we've put you on a list, and we will reach back out when it's a good fit, or when we have the time to get you in our schedule. And then we will get sometimes up to three to four responses. And I can imagine this being like, let's say, someone were working for you, Bridgette, and they didn't have the autonomy or agency to read those instructions, and follow those over maybe your instructions of Hey, you need to follow up twice, you know, maybe that's your process through your PR agency, but then they're not following ours, I would imagine that in your agency, you would have the the process of like, listen to the podcast, or would you not like Do you still follow up anyway? And how do you feel about follow up? So let's talk about follow ups.

Brigitte Lyons 57:38
I literally got asked this question in my mastermind yesterday. And it is such a hard one for me to speak to. Because on one end of the spectrum, you have the PR people who will totally advocate for following up until you get the No. And let me just put it out there at four out of the five pitches you send or just you're going to get no response, you're not going to get a no, you're not going to get a whatever, you're just going to get nothing back. And it's, it's hard. And on top of that, we're following up works about 60 to 70% of the placements we get are from sending a follow up email. So it's really hard to know. Like what boundaries to follow around those things, and whatnot. My personal policy for my agency, what I recommend is we almost always follow once. And actually crackling we've kind of talked about this before, you know, it's like the follow up. And the rationale behind the following up once is like, Oh, you know, we've all had that experience where we've received an email, and we've been in the middle of something, and we've meant to respond to it when we forgotten it. And we're actually like, I've had a million times as someone's followup with me. And I've been grateful, right? Because really, because I haven't had the time. And so that's where my general baseline is to follow up once and then you know, you can always make exceptions for that. And it's a real judgment call. So like if somebody individually emails me like if somebody on your team was to email me and say something I'd be much less likely than with an autoresponder. I have disregarded autoresponders like that and follow up a little more when they're not about the podcast, but they're like general contact. Right, right.

Kathleen Shannon 59:18
And so I think it's very specific outlining all that you might be contacting us for and why or how we'll get back to you.

Brigitte Lyons 59:25
Wow. Yeah. So I think that there's like different levels there. And ultimately, it it's really a judgment call. And it's a hard thing to balance. I would never follow up more than once in that scenario. The other thing that I do and counsel is so when I say 60 to 70% of the results, like I actually measured this a few years ago, right? Like how many of our placements actually came from the initial pitch or the follow up. And so it was over half were from the follow up and some like we would have terrible results for our clients if we didn't do this right. But we only Follow up once. And ultimately, just the very act of following up is usually enough. But I always try to go above and beyond and add something. So your pitch has to be short, right? There's always something that you want to include that you have to cut out. And so sometimes it can be something like actually sending a podcaster Hey, by the way, like, so and so just had an episode come out in this other podcast, you might want to check it out, or they were just profiled here, or they just wrote this blog post on this exact topic.

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:31
So hey, yes, I love Oh, sorry to interrupt you. I just like more of the sense of entitlement, whenever I get follow ups that are like, Did you see this? Oh, don't say that. And it's like, No, I don't want to put your SEO link in my website for 100 bucks. Like I don't, please stop following up for. And so or, you know, that's, that's like an extreme example, because I feel like those are the ones that you get that you ignore, and you get like four or five times. But I do love the idea of maybe now including that social proof like, hey, this person was just on this podcast, or here's something that they wrote that you might be interested in. I think that that which

Emily Thompson 1:01:06
is less about follow up and more about adding more value to the pitch like there is a difference there between just like, Hey, did you see this? I'm just checking in, and hey, I'm like helping you make this decision a little easier for you?

Brigitte Lyons 1:01:19
Yeah, totally. And sometimes I'll like I have a client who was on a podcast. It's not a New York Times podcast, but to New York Times writer hosts the podcast, right? And so I did a test where sometimes I put it in the pitch. And sometimes I put in the follow up, because I wanted to see, like, which one worked better. And honestly, they both like this, actually is the client. You guys had her on the show Jenny Nash, right, the book coach? No, you don't have her on the show. Why did I think you did? I think I just introduced you.

Kathleen Shannon 1:01:49
Yeah, we've been, we've been chatting with her. I she's on your list. Yes, she's on our list.

Brigitte Lyons 1:01:54
So she's like, incredible. She is like, she has such a wealth of knowledge. And because she's a book coach, like everybody wants to talk to her because everybody wants to know how to write a book, right? And so for her, it didn't matter so much. But that's when I talk about like doing little tests is like a hold something in reserve. And you guys right now, like you have coverage coming out all the time. And so it's so natural to say like this just came out last week, I thought you might be interested, it goes right along with this topic. And that seems to work really well.

Kathleen Shannon 1:02:25
Okay, the last one of the last things I want to talk about, because I know we need to wrap up is timing. whenever it comes to pitching a podcast with your launch, like what do you think that the scale of timing is? When should you be pitching year round in general, just to keep your audience engaged and kick to get new people? Should you be pitching once two months before a specific launch? Like how does this work?

Brigitte Lyons 1:02:47
Yeah, it is really, really hard to time podcast appearances. So you guys just you just mentioned like your show is basically booked up for 2018 we are recording in the beginning of March. So it is really hard to time, some podcasts have long lead times. And so what a lead time is, is like there's the lead time between, hey, I want you on the podcast to recording the interview, that can be four to six months. And then from the show actually airing, which can be another couple of months, right? Or another show could have you do the interview and air it within 30 days. So it's just really hard to time that process. And I would say in terms of timing kind of the only constant is that the majority of podcasters are humans and like to slow down over the summer. So like just don't try to pitch too much in July and August. It's just brutal. I focus on other work usually.

Kathleen Shannon 1:03:42
And I would say just always have something to sell. So if you're not in an active launch, maybe you're telling someone to go to your opt in. And that's the very specific action that you want to take, if it does coincide with your book launch or your you know, whatever launch and also remember this people are listening to podcasts in perpetuity. So like no one is just people are going through archives. And so if you have a very specific launch timing, especially if it's a program like a mastermind group or a live event, it's going to be outdated by the time some people listen to your show. So I think that it is important to consider that your podcast episode is going to be evergreen. And if you're pitching something that someone can always buy, then you're good to go. If you're pitching something that somebody can always opt into, you're good to go. If it's even just creating brand awareness for your own brand. And all you're doing is building trust and credibility through your appearances. That's okay, too. You don't always have to be overly promoting something even though that's where a lot of the pitches come from.

Brigitte Lyons 1:04:47
Yeah, I mean, it could just be simple list building or credibility building. I mean, people do this for all sorts of different kinds of reasons, right? podcasts can be messaged testing, right like seeing what people respond to You can do it around a launch. And what I would say to that is 90% of people should be doing podcast pitching all year round. So what I said once, you know, one pitch a week, or one pitch a month, even, you know, whatever it is. And then if you do have a big launch, you want a time around, you want to be looking at least six months in advance, like six to eight months to give people a timeframe. So when you're setting the pitch up, you're giving people a context of this is what it's for, this is what I'd like to come out. And a lot of people will work with you on that, but they need the notice, or love

Emily Thompson 1:05:33
it. And I will say to just even like start wrapping us up is that one of the things that I've really taken from our engagement with you, as I feel like Kathleen and I are always saying, you know, put yourself, put yourself out there, share your content, you know, get on other people's platforms, and you know, in order to grow your own brand. And I feel like we've been saying that for a really long time, not having to do it very much ourselves, because we have a platform that brings lots of people to us. But I will say that working with you has proven to me how important that is, I've felt the momentum of of that comes from putting yourself out there in as many places as you possibly can. And it's definitely renewed this want and me to do this more continuously. Because this is how you grow your brand and business for sure.

Kathleen Shannon 1:06:19
Same agreed, I feel like we have certainly, you know, like paid you to do this for us, which has been amazing. But you're kind of that PR rep who's going to also teach your clients how to fish so that they're always eaten some fish anyway. So I certainly imagine that we are going to include this in a part of our process and continue to move forward using everything that we've learned from you. So thank you so much like we've loved having you in our corner, we went into this, not even knowing what we didn't know. And you've really helped us bridge the gap between us and then our PR team over at running press who has been incredible and amazing, but really using you in this non traditional route. And really focusing on podcast specifically and using them for the more traditional coverage has just been this like, Dream Team. So thank you so so much. A couple more things. What are you working on right now? Like where can our listeners find you? How can they learn more from you? Just like we have learned from you?

Brigitte Lyons 1:07:20
Yeah, well, I was actually thinking about a little bit about some of the things before this interview that like kind of hold people back. And one of the biggest things I hear from people are like, going back to that like What do I say? Like what is making my brand so interesting? Why would somebody want to interview me? And so what I did for you guys is like excerpted from my program get booked on podcast, it's where I teach people how to do this, my total. It's a toolkit, and there's a mastermind component if you want it, but there's a section there that's like a worksheet on how do you come up with what those topics are. So I want to give that to your listeners. They can check it out at Bridgette Lyons comm forward slash being boss, you can go there download that work through it. I'll also send you some information about the program and how to work with me if you want to do that. Because, you know, we love empowering people. And for me, it's so funny because it's like, when I started, I was doing a lot of training. And then I started doing the client work. And I just realized like, I don't know if you guys are your listeners can really relate to this. But I didn't enjoy the training without the one on one work. Like I love both. I love mentoring and empowering people. And when I teach somebody and they got their own thing, like they fished and brought it home, I'm more excited than actually what our agency does. But you need the client work to keep yourself fresh and getting up every day, I think. So it's a really nice balance. So I wanted to give that to you guys and some extra information. Because this podcast outreach is a huge part of what we're doing. And you know, we've done that for your book. We did influencer campaign pre or like so much. There's so many different things.

Kathleen Shannon 1:08:53
There are a lot of ideas that you came to us with that we were like, We just can't thank you. I'd rather you come with more ideas and I'd say oh, we can then to not have enough. So I appreciate you so much. Can you just say that URL one more time for our listeners?

Brigitte Lyons 1:09:08
Yeah, it's Bridget lyons.com Ford slash being boss.

Kathleen Shannon 1:09:14
And then what's making you feel most boss lately?

Brigitte Lyons 1:09:17
Oh my gosh. I feel so emotional right now. So one of the things that has been emerging actually is the work that I've been doing for you guys. It's happened totally naturally it is not work that I set, like set out really to do so I worked by chance with Danielle Laporte on the launch of her desire map a few years ago and then I had a meeting with Chris guillebeau where he was like, you should do book PR because like all these reasons, right? And then like I started working with you guys and since then I picked up this other client amber Ray who has a book coming out a month after yours and I'm working with a book coach and it's been this emerging area of my business and the reason it makes me feel so boss is because A couple of things. One is that I've gotten like all this incredible feedback from people who have bestsellers, that the things that we're doing are the things that sell books. So I feel like the things that I'm doing with my company, it's not as sexy or as flashy as like today's show or what have you, right. But it's actually something that's making a real difference for clients. So it's like this incredible validation in terms of the work that I'm doing. And on the other side, it makes me feel boss, because being boss is more than just about the work. It's about your life. And I am a nerd. And I like to read I read it like a book or two a week. And so whenever I work with a client, I get to read their book before it comes out. And it's not a work measure. But it's like a personal thing, where it's like, being the girl who used to get grounded for reading too much and would like crack open the bathroom door so that I could like read my book at night when I was supposed to be sleeping. And like now, I'm roughing people, their books. It's like, it feels really good. It feels really badass.

Emily Thompson 1:11:03
I love that da book nerds. And I agree like one of the super badass things in our life right now is getting advanced reader copies of things. And there's just something I like, even if it's a day, even if it's getting a book a day early, it makes you feel a little more special.

Brigitte Lyons 1:11:21
It doesn't feel like you're being led into some secret club or something. It just feels really, really good.

Kathleen Shannon 1:11:28
So no, I was joking about like, I love getting swag. I love it whenever people send us stuff. But even more than that, I just want all the books in advance. I love it so much. You

Brigitte Lyons 1:11:39
get to see like the gift before it comes into the world. And I don't know it's cool to feel like you're a part of something like that.

Kathleen Shannon 1:11:47
Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Hey bosses, I want to tell you about the CEO day kit. The CEO day kit is 12 months of focus planning for your business in just one day. So Emily and I have packaged up the exact tools that we've been consistently using for years that have helped us grow from baby bosses to the CEOs of our own businesses. gain clarity find focus, get momentum, prioritize your time, make better decisions and become more self reliant with the CEO day kit. Go to courses that being boss club to learn more and see if it's a fit for you and your business. We'd like to give a shout out to our partner fresh books cloud accounting, you can try it for free for 30 days no credit card needed and cancel anytime. Just go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us Section A special thanks to our sponsor 2020 who is offering our being boss listeners a five photo free trial to start yours right now go to 20 twenty.com slash being boss. That's the word 20 then to zero.com slash being boss to get five free photos. Thank you for listening to being boss. Find Articles show notes and downloads at WWW dot being boss club. Thank you so much to our team and sponsors who make being boss possible our sound engineer and web developer Corey winter. Our editorial director and content manager Caitlin brain, our community manager and social media director Sharon lukey and are being countered David Austin, with support from braid creative and indicia biography,

Emily Thompson 1:13:26
do the work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.