Episode 245 // Get + Give Support Through Leadership with Sally Netherwood

November 10, 2020

Leadership expert Sally Netherwood joins the show today to talk about how business owners can give and receive new levels of support by focusing on being leaders. Sally and Emily discuss how leadership fits into the Being Boss mantra, how leadership contrasts with management, and what it takes to be an effective leader.

Learn More about the Topics Discussed in this Episode
This Episode Brought to You By:
"Leadership is being able to influence people to work or move in some way that furthers your cause."
- Sally

Discussed in this Episode

  • How Sally got to where she is today
  • What leadership means
  • How leadership fits into the Being Boss mantra
  • The difference between leadership and management
  • Defining the elements of effective leadership: listening and curiosity
  • Four key actions for being a leader

More from Sally Netherwood

More from Emily

Almanac Supply Co.


Emily Thompson 0:09
As a busy professional, it's likely that support comes up for you quite often, from getting the support that you need from your team or your family, to giving appropriate support to your team or your family or your customers or your clients. We all get and give support to everyone around us. But we also oftentimes feel like it's missing the mark. So how do we hit the mark? And how do we help those around us hit the mark. It's not through more systems or more instructions, or definitely not through more managing. It's through more leadership. Welcome to being boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host, Emily Thompson. And this week, I'm talking support and leadership with my boss pal Sally netherwood. Sally is a global leadership coach based in the UK, working with clients all around the world. She has spent the last two decades coaching extraordinary business leaders, entrepreneurs and changemakers as they pursue their leadership journey. Sally sees her role as a catalyst for transformational moments along this leadership journey to create the magnificent leaps that propel her clients to a new and richer way of living and leading. She is the leaders champion holding them to a level of brilliance they scarcely dare believe as achievable. The way she works is challenging and liberating, it creates pivotal life enhancing moments of transformation. I met Sally several months ago when she joined me in the C suite the exclusive application only third tier of the being boss community, where I meet with the six figure boss members every week to discuss relevant topics and workshop obstacles and opportunities. Sally immediately struck me as a gem of a boss with her quiet, observant demeanor her impeccable questions and her ability to leave us all scribbling down. What we've since dubbed as Sally isms whenever she has something to say the conversation you're about to hear was recorded live with a group of community bosses joining in for one of our monthly clubhouse conversations which is available to our second tier of the community. And to be clear, the community does have three tiers. There's the community, which gives access to all bosses, the clubhouse where you get access to extra being boss content, and the C suite that application only peer mastermind group of six figure CEOs. So as you listen through, you may hear us sharing more about what's happening in the chat or taking questions from the audience who were all totally digging our chat on support and leadership, as I'm sure you're about to as well. But now before we dive in, here's a message from our sponsor. I can't talk about the topic of support without talking about the tools we use in our business from the tools that help you practice your craft to the ones that make your business run. And I can't talk about business tools without talking about having tools to make sure your money situation is on point, which you can do with a tool like freshbooks whether you're looking for invoicing or tracking expenses, multicurrency support or the ability to set up subscriptions. freshbooks is here to help the creative be on top of their money game, automatically track your expenses and store your receipts save time and get paid up to two times faster. It's here to help you get paid for the work that you do. Sign up now and get 50% off your first three months by going to freshbooks dot com slash being boss and enter being boss and the How did you hear about us section? Hello, everyone. All the bosses in the room? Hope you're doing well. How are you Sally?

Sally Netherwood 3:58
I'm good Emily. Hi, how are you? Hello everyone.

Emily Thompson 4:03
Everyone, I've invited Sally to join me this month, I guess for this club house conversation. I cannot wait to introduce everyone to her You are going to love her. What's going on today is Sally and I are going to be having a conversation around support very specifically leadership. I have very much so enjoy getting to know Sally over the past several weeks in the C suite. And one of my favorite things is how she's pretty quiet. Which is interesting for the boss crowd. Usually bosses are like in their Sally's very like observational. And then whenever she speaks everyone in the room just start scribbling down exactly what it is that she's saying. So we've all coined them as Sally isms in this in the C suite. And so I thought it was very important for me to bring her to all of you and show you this amazing resource. And boss mine that is in the community. And we're here today talking about leadership and support, which is the topic of the month. So, Sally, with all of that I would love for you to share us a little bit or share with us a little bit about yourself and how it is that you've gotten to this place.

Sally Netherwood 5:21
Thank you. Emily's no pressure there is though, Sally isms to order, I'll have to see what I can do. So how did I get here? Well, I've been doing it, as you said, an intro for 20 years. So it feels like I've been doing it forever. I do. I do know the story of how I got here. But it is almost so long ago. It's like a story that I know, rather than really remembering it. So my professional life was in advertising. At the start, I did 10 years in advertising. And I got to the point where that wasn't right for me anymore. But I wasn't sure quite what was right. And I had an idea for a business I wanted to start. So it was definitely an entrepreneurial idea. And I left the advertising agency that I was at to start this idea. And I got my spare room all set up with a computer and a desk and I'm ready to go and started researching this idea. And the more I researched it, the more I thought, I don't want to do this, this is a service I want to buy. It's a service I want to pay for it was a sort of a concierge idea helping people run their lives. Because when I had had a really busy life and advertising, that's what I wanted, I needed somebody to get my washing machine fixed to sort out my holidays to to help me run my life. So I thought, well, I'll leave advertising and do that. But it's not what I wanted to do. So he had that kind of moment of Oh, so what do I do? And it was coaching was around then life coaching. I think it was probably better known in America two years ago, that 20 years ago than it was in the UK. But I had heard of coaching, mostly from life coaching. So I got myself a life coach to help me work out what I was going to do. And I should say that while while I was sitting there working out how I was going to make a living, having walked out of one various people started calling me up and asking me to help them to give them advice. Could you talk me through this? I used to work with you a few years ago, could you give me some advice on this. So I was for virtually no money at all, sort of a you know, sort of embarrassed to charge for it was sort of giving people an hour here and afternoon there of my time to sort their confidence out or their business out or their ideas out and got myself a life coach and said, right, you need to tell me what I'm going to do for a living because I'm blank. I have no idea what I'm going to do for a living. Yeah, I'm doing this stuff now, which is helping people you know, with confidence and things but you know, but what am I actually going to do for a living? And she, of course, we're family, maybe maybe you're doing it? Maybe Maybe it's come to us though coaching really did come to me. And as a result of that life coach that I work with, I learned about coaching, I learned about where to go for training. Well, I say I learned but I'm not always a huge researcher. She said, Well, there's this company called coach you and there's this company called CTI coaches Training Institute. They're the ones I know. So I looked at them both. One was live and had sessions in London, the other was all virtual. So I thought I'll go for the live one. And that was the extent of my research. But I chose a good one. I chose a good company. And essentially I trained while I was doing it. So I was coaching and learning what I was doing while I was training. So it really was a career that came and find me which I do think is often a case with entrepreneurs. It's often something you didn't realize you were doing or you thought it was your hobby or you thought you did it to relax and it can creep over you and suddenly realize oh, people might actually pay for this people might actually value this. So that was 20 years ago I grew very I life coached really for about a year and very quickly got into leadership coaching, which I love. I love everything about leadership coaching. I love my clients. I love what I get to do it's such a privilege to work with people and you know I do the word transformation comes up a lot in my when I talk about my work because that's that's the goal. The goal is to not make it hard work for somebody to create a change. The goal is for them to make it easy because the Transform, they're transformed. It's not a long arduous journey. It's like I'm here and now I can do it differently. I can see it differently or I can behave it differently. So the business has gone up and down over the 20 years and up and down as an in different directions. And here I am today

Emily Thompson 9:59
Mmmm. I love that you're talking about what you are. What you found in your clients is also the exact same journey that you went through like it was this long process of transformation. For you, it wasn't that you quit your job, and you just knew exactly what you're going to do next. And you like when did it you it was a process of transformation where you quit the job. You thought you knew what you were going to do, then maybe not. So you like started down the journey. And I also really love that you found everything you allowed everything to find you, I guess is what I'm trying to say it wasn't this hard push, which oftentimes entrepreneurs think especially after they quit their job, you know, I need to solve the problems, you know, make ends meet all of the things they start pushing in, in specific directions, when I do think there is something necessary to following a slower process and letting the things come to you, which is it sounds like exactly what you did.

Sally Netherwood 10:57
Mm hmm. I think that's true. And I often think when you, you don't know where you're going, and then you submit like, it's like a fault. It's like there's fog in front of you, you know, there's Land Beyond the fog, you know, there's something that you're trying to get to, but there's the fog in the way. And sometimes it's in a moment, you know, or it's six months. And then a moment, literally is other times it's plowing through it, but you can suddenly see what's beyond. And often find, then you can look back and go, Oh, of course, this was where I'm I was coming, of course when I look back. So when I look back at what I was good at in advertising, what made me successful in advertising. I wasn't particularly good at the actual adverts of advertising or in the craft, if you like I was good motivating people and persuading people and bringing people on board and getting them ready to do what they needed to do. So and that's essentially what I still do now, a little bit more structure around it, but same kind of thing.

Emily Thompson 12:00
Right? You just have to wait for the light to be shed on what's already there.

Sally Netherwood 12:04

Emily Thompson 12:06
right. I love this. So I want to start moving in the direction of talking about leadership and support because that's what it is that we're here to talk about today. And like I said earlier, I think I mean, it comes so naturally to you, whenever you're you. Everyone watching this in the clubhouse conversation sees how animated Sally can get. whenever she's talking about things that she's feeling very excited about. And anytime I ever hear you talking about leadership, and really adjusting and accepting some mindsets around how it is that we we show up for ourselves in our businesses, and our customers, our teams, all of those things. That's where I see you get the most animated and I love it. So we want to head in that direction. And I want to talk first very, I guess probably broadly around leadership because they feel like sometimes that can be a bit of a buzzword, you know, like, just be a leader get some leadership training all these things, it's kind of lost its meaning or so I want to start there. What does leadership mean? And how do you find it really fitting into sort of this universe of the being boss? I guess system of being?

Sally Netherwood 13:25
I think it's a great question and preparing for this, you know, you told me you were gonna ask me that. And I thought, Oh, what is leadership? My god, I spend my time doing leadership talking leadership, what actually do I mean by leadership? So I'm going to caveat that with this is what I mean, by leadership, there's a as many different definitions that are out there, as there are leaders, I should think what I think leadership is, is being able to influence people to work or move in some way that furthers your cause furthers the progress towards your goal. So if you if that's in business, and you have employees, it's it's having those employees feel like they want to that they're motivated to that they understand why they're working hard here, and why they want to work hard and why not just about the graph, the actual hard work, but the way in which they work that there's an internal motivation to work, not just because I get paid in my hours a nine to fix or whatever. So, leadership is about having the people go with you. And I sometimes things it's easier to explain by setting it apart from managing, because managing being a manager is a really important job. And I think in a being boss context, probably most of us small business owners are both managers and leaders, and they're both valid roles, but they're different. So a manager is responsible for the outputs in a way It's managed for so in your business, Emily, it's Almanac, it's getting the candles to look good to work, you know, to be a good quality to be produced on the right budget on time shipped appropriately to the client to the customer. And looking pretty and making them feel good when they get it that's managing that process, managing the budgets, keeping an eye on your fingers, all of that is managing, leading, is how you influence people. So leading is making the person who's rapping or making the candles feel excited by or to feel motivated by or part of the vision or devoted to you or devoted so the the customer, there's something more integral to the way that they're producing it. And so it's almost like a manager is responsible for the product or service output and leader is responsible for the human input is how does that human being feel while about working here? Or about making your product or providing your service?

Emily Thompson 16:05
And why is that important? I mean, I mean, we get it, but like from you, why is it important for you to not only manage, but to inspire and lead.

Sally Netherwood 16:20
Because you get more of a person you get rather than doing a good the right job, to the right standard that has been set for me, or that is on the wall and that the or written down in the service book or whatever, rather than doing a good right job. You get people doing their best, you get people doing that better, even better for you, they're better or best. You get people wanting to think outside the box, you get people coming to you going, you know, on the wall that says we do 123? Well, I've been thinking that if we did three to one, it would save us money, time and space. So it actually gets people feeling I'm part of this business, I'm not just here for the money. I'm here because I'm part of this business. And if I can help it succeed, I will get some fulfillment and motivation from that as well. The other side of of influencing is making people feel like they're growing, of leadership. So it's constantly, you want to constantly develop your business. So you want to constantly grow your team. So your team needs to know that there's a future here, that they're going to learn and grow that or they're going there's some sort of progression for them, or some sort of training or promise of ferment, which makes people feel more emotionally attached to the business. Leadership, of course extends to clients as well to your clients and customers.

Emily Thompson 17:58
Indeed, it was what you're cultivating here is loyalty, right. And we all know that selling a customer who's already bought from you is significantly easier than selling the one who has an already having employees that are loyal to you, or results in less turnover of employees like they're going to stay on, they're going to become more integral for your business, you're going to spend less time refilling roles that you've just refilled all of these things, there really does wrap up a whole lot of very important results from not just managing, but leading and in the context of you know, the community this month and the things that we've been talking about, we've been talking about support, and how it is that we give support, but also how it is that we get support. And we've been focusing a lot on, on the getting of support. How it is that we are putting people in our lives in our businesses, because they will say to all of this that we're talking about also works for your life to like is your life partner on board for that home renovation. If you're the one holding the vision, you need to lead everyone towards that vision. And the same thing with your kids as you're thinking about that. And thinking about my preteen, like how can we really get her to buy in on the dishes?

Sally Netherwood 19:15
Yeah, but it is funny when I was thinking about that as well. And it's like when your child's younger and you need them to eat their vegetables, you know you need them. We don't just need them for you. You want them to enjoy and like their vegetables. You know you have as a parent of a young child the ability to force them to eat their vegetables, or pay them to eat their vegetables or say Eat your vegetables or there's no TV. And yet what we seek to do is kind of explain why eating vegetables is good. So there are fat lettered you'll be able to run faster, your legs will grow longer, your muscles will be stronger if you eat your vegetables, you know, it's it's giving them their own motivation for eating vegetables rather than just because you said so.

Emily Thompson 19:57
Right. It's definitely giving context and actually Think of funny thing here. And this ties back to everything we do here at being boss. It requires a conversation, like there's a difference between giving an order and giving context. So saying I need you to, you know, so it Almanac is about, there's a difference between getting someone to package an order and saying, This is how I want you to prep this box, and not giving any contacts and they're gonna be like, well, I don't want to put the sticker on that way, or I don't want to use two pieces of, of tissue paper or whatever, as opposed to walking them through what happens. And why it is that we have these protocols so that everything does arrive very safely. And I give that example, because that's literally been something we've had to do, we are very particular about how it is that we package our boxes, both for the safety of the products inside, but also for the experience that the customer gets whenever they receive the package. Without that context.

Emily Thompson 20:57
They don't have any real reason to follow that other than Oh, I've been given this instruction. But we don't have as many workers in the workplace these days, I don't think we're just order takers. People want to know why it is that they are doing something, how it affects the bottom line. And all of that requires more conversation, which requires a bit more connection, which there is the difference between a leader and a manager? Yes,

Sally Netherwood 21:27
that is the difference. And you've also highlighted that upfront leadership can take more time than managing somebody. So you can just tell somebody what to do. You could even type it up and hand a sheet to somebody when they walk in. So telling somebody what to do is quicker. But as you said, the leadership part, the involvement, then making them feel part of the process and understanding the process might take longer on that first morning. But you reap the rewards later down the line where they are sticking to the process because they understand why or they're more involved in it, or they're looking to improve it or they're coming back to you and saying Actually, you know what, I've noticed the stickers peel off if we do them this way. So why don't we do them that way. So leadership is an upfront investment quite often, but it's for the reward further down the line.

Emily Thompson 22:18
Hmm, I need to walk my kid back through filling up the dishwasher.

Sally Netherwood 22:24
Yeah, and why and why a dishwasher works and

Emily Thompson 22:29
why this is important and how it how it relates to, you know, the livelihood of our family, like if you're doing dishes or not doing dishes, and then I can go do this thing so that we can go on vacation except maybe not vacation that may be a very bad example.

Sally Netherwood 22:42
But you know, I that is a good example related fair dishwasher. Thing is because it brings in emotions. And that's where leadership leadership is about influencing how people feel about things. So if you tell your daughter to load or empty the dishwasher, of course she doesn't want it's a boring, it's a bad job. Nobody wants to do the dishwasher. But if you explain to her how you feel, if you have to do it all the time, or you have to indicate maybe just talking about my son's here, but how I have to go to the dishwasher and restock it after they've put their things that plates in because otherwise nothing will come out clean. If I just shout at them and say if it didn't, but if I explain how that makes me feel they can't, that you've got a different buy in. And people are more likely and that's leadership's are taking it to, to working with your team or people, your suppliers or your customers, if you can understand how they feel, and how you want them to feel and seek to influence that then you're becoming more and more influential and more and more of a leader.

Emily Thompson 23:53
And in that case, you also get more and more support.

Sally Netherwood 23:56
Yes, right.

Emily Thompson 23:57
So the people who are in your life or in your business, your vendors, your customers, your team, your kids, whoever it is, with that more buy in, you are getting more support. And you're also I think in that giving more support people want purpose, and what it is that they're doing. They want to know why they want to know that it has an impact. And we're all here because we want to impact others you want to influence others, right? Not just bosses want that. Right? Your team wants that your kids want that your husband wants that, like everyone wants that. So by doing these things, you are both supporting and getting support in a way that you could not otherwise. I just want to take a minute to shout out to all the small business owners out there. It's hard work balancing your bottom line and taking care of your team. That's why gusto build an easier and more affordable way to manage payroll benefits. And more. Automatic payroll tax filing is simple direct deposit, free health insurance administration 401 K's onboarding tools, you name it gussto made it simple. And right now you can get three months free once you run your first payroll, just go to a gusto comm slash being boss, that's gussto.com slash being boss. Okay with that, I want to go into some foundational elements of effective leadership. So I mentioned earlier that you're really great with just like giving us some quick quips, who's a good foundations, all of these things. So I would love to hear from you. What are some of those key elements that we need to keep in mind to elevate our roles and our businesses or lives or whatever, from manager or task giver, or you know, or even just boss and into that leader space.

Sally Netherwood 26:05
And the word you use that which is a great one in leadership is elevate. So I think the thing to remember about leadership is it's it's not like a promotion, you don't get promoted to leader and there you are, there you sit. Leadership is a life long journey. It's it's constant work. It's, you know, personal development, professional development and developing your leadership. And your ability with a leader is ongoing, so that for me, there's, there's two key skills, and four key actions for being a leader, the two key skills are listening, and being curious. And really listening, and is listening to learn, rather than listening to wait till it's your turn to say your thing. You know, it's really listening. It's, it's putting the spotlight on the other person. And your whole job is to learn what what am I hearing with my ears from this person, but you listen with all your senses, you listen with your eyes, you listen with your skin, you know, you get goosebumps, sometimes when you're really listening to somebody or you really connect with something, you're listening with your emotions, you know, we catch emotions from somebody. So if you're really listening to somebody, and they're feeling sad, or related or fearful, you can learn to feel that inside you. And all that information that you're taking on board allows you to understand that person better. So listening is if if you know if anyone says to me, what's the one thing you must do as a leader? If it's if it really is down to one thing, it's learned to be the most exquisite listener? And, and, and that really does go to that intuition. I know you love intuitive things, Emily, but you know, Liz, you know how there are times when you're talking to somebody and you just know something? And you don't know, you haven't been told it. There's no factual evidence, but you just know something about that. And leadership as well is leaning into that and allowing yourself to see if that intuition is right, being quite comfortable with it being wrong, but actually asking, you know, I'm sensing I'm wondering, I've got an idea. Would you like this, so it's sounding it out. And that's bringing me to the next crucial skill, which is curiosity. So cute. great leaders are curious, great leaders are problem solvers, just like entrepreneurs, problem solvers. puzzlers really trying to work my way through this to the most simple solution, or the most elegant solution, or the most financially sensible solution or whatever it may be. But it's curiosity and ongoing curiosity. So that's the loop of listening and learning and listening and learning and listening and learning.

Emily Thompson 29:00
I find it so intriguing that you're talking about, especially in the listening piece, this idea that you don't just listen with your ears, right. And you brought up intuition, because literally, as you're saying that I was thinking like you are actually talking about sort of digesting information for the purpose of using your intuition. Mm hmm. Right, like it is engaging with all of the senses, which does require amazing attention. So you can't be a leader and like, also looking at your phone while someone's talking. Right? Or you can't be a leader and be thinking about your to do list all day. Like you really have to engage everything for the purpose of listening and feeling and sensing everything in that way. So that the one of the things that I love about really bringing intuition into so much of it is that we do is because I do believe that your body and mind all of the things has the ability To pick up on so many signs and signals that your conscious brain cannot be aware of all of the things, right. And so that distillation of all of that information is the intuition. I don't think it is so much like, I don't think the planets are telling me what to do. or anything like that. I think I'm instead picking on picking up on so much information. And then that gut feeling that bit of intuition is my ability to distill all of that into something. So I appreciate you talking about that in terms of listening, because I think you're right. And I've never thought about that, like, full sensory listening before

Sally Netherwood 30:42
little sensors and listening with your wisdom and your experience, as well. And the thing I was thinking about intuition is your intuition is never wrong. You just sometimes interpreted incorrectly.

Emily Thompson 30:56
Yes, and sometimes it needs you to learn something first. Right? A lot of people are like, Oh, my intuition was wrong. I ended up like, doing that thing. And it was horrible. Well, like, there was a lesson there for you to learn that you needed to learn first, and now you can go do the thing. Like I don't think that your intuition is wrong, is incorrect, either. I think it's I think it's always right one way or the other.

Sally Netherwood 31:19
And taking the lessening thing back to the support thing. Often, we're really keen to support somebody, we're really keen to offer our support to an employee or a customer or a friend or a child or whatever. And we've decided what support they lead, we've decided what trouble they're in. And we've decided what we're going to do to support that person and our intentions are so good. And sometimes we can confuse or divert people from path. And sometimes we can do damage or just annoy by doing that. So listening is really good there as well. It's, I sense, or I see that you need some support, I'd like to provide it. What do you need? Yeah. Well,

Emily Thompson 32:07
I also love that you're saying that everyone wants to support but also no one wants to listen. Right? Especially that like full sensory, listen, like we're all way too distracted. Like we all want to support. Of course, we want to support our teams. Of course, we want to support our customers, of course, they want to support, you know, our family, all of those things. But when is the last time you sat down and listened, like really full body listened, because that is step number one. So if you feel like you need to support people that you want to support people, check yourself and make sure you're actually taking the steps.

Sally Netherwood 32:42
And that they do want the support and and what they need, you know, ask them and I think it's important to say that a leader doesn't have to spend their entire day listening and supporting, you know, there are times when you have to do stuff, right stuff. But it's, it's knowing which mode you're in. And if you've decided, right, it's Emily, me I need I want to give me some attention today. So I'm gonna switch my phone off, turn my computer off, move away get somewhere maybe we'll get a coffee and maybe we'll change our location. A great place for talking so often in a business context, we sit across the table with work stuff in between us. And we're immediately sort of confront confronting each other or or there's something or there's the problem is in between us and we're tussling over it or whatever it might be. And the best way to listen to somebody Have you ever noticed I'm sure you've noticed this with your daughter Emily is in the car when they're sitting next to you or walking so going for a walk if you really needed a deep conversation or a deep listen with somebody go for a walk. That didn't really helps. I need to do more of that you're

Emily Thompson 33:55
right. Actually I will say do you even run the parenting they feel like most of our parenting does happen on walls. Right like some of those like really big conversation we're talking about things or leggings out it definitely is our daily walks Ooh, you're right about that.

Sally Netherwood 34:10
Well I sort of change the eye contact is really important for listening but actually when we're having a new thought we have to look up and if I'm in with eye contact with you all the time I'm actually my brain cannot have new thoughts it needs to be able to look at that's where my new ideas section is. And I have to be able to look away from you and look up to access my idea section.

Emily Thompson 34:35
Oh my god you just blew my mind and I think not only my mind there's gavia see your whoa comment over there in the chat for sure you are completely right. And you're not texting if you're walking I can't text and what it's like to get hit by a car. Right? You're not like sitting there on the on your laptop. You're not writing notes like you are just listening. Oh, you're totally right. So I want to move on to this. This cute espies and then we can move past skills. But when it comes to curiosity, what does that look like? Do you have any like thoughts or tips on like listening, full body listened to everything but curiosity? How does someone, embrace and show that?

Sally Netherwood 35:21
Be Dumb? So when you're being curious, the dumb questions are the best ones. So I have worked with lots of people in lots of businesses over the years, and I start them on curiosity, and they go, I can hear them, I put them in partners, and they weren't, you know, they're practicing being curious with each other. And I hear something but don't you think it would be a good idea? If you were to could just call them up and confront them with it? Question mark? So it's a question. It's a it's a, this is what you should do, disguised as a question. And I'm telling you how clever I am. Or I'm and I may even be really genuinely trying to serve you and help you by giving you an idea. Whereas in this context, curiosity is assuming they're the expert, and you know, nothing. And so the questions to ask open questions, not closed questions. So closed questions are the questions that end and yes or no, they're sort of dead ends in the Curiosity world. Do you like French fries? Yes. What do you like about french fries? Oh, well, I love I love the hot sensation. And it leads you down a different path. So always ask open questions. That not closed questions, and the best dumb open questions begin with the worst. So what were half what how doesn't quite fit my rule? How? And when? So what where, how and when? So what do you like about french fries? When do you most love eating french fries? How do you like to eat french fries? They're all and what? You're getting the answer? Yes, you'll find out a bit about french fries eating. But you'll find out they love to eat them on holiday when they're with family and friends. It's the only time they let themselves eat french fries. So it's an indulgence. I didn't you'll find out more about the nature of that person. The one question that that I think kills curiosity, it well doesn't kill it. But if it follows my rules, but I rule it out is why why do you like French? Why do you eat french fries? Why has a little bit of defend yourself? in it? It has a you have to explain yourself with why it sounds like I've got an opinion. It does. It's not a rule. But I tend to avoid why people tend to feel they have to defend themselves with a why. So curiosity, open questions that that explore and then just follow your nose and then ask more. Just and and what you like about that, and what you like about that, like really dumb questions, and you get much more information.

Emily Thompson 38:02
I often find in my experience, whenever, whenever, really all the time, this is just kind of me as I like, for other people. Whenever you're workshopping things, or whenever there is a team member or maybe a partner. Partners something No, no do anything specific here. But um, I always find it's significantly more helpful. If things are not going down the right path. Let's say let's say you've given someone a problem to solve, and they're not like, there's not really the solution. I often find that telling someone they're wrong is not going to work. Right, especially the kinds of people that we like to be around and work with they, I find that people like to come up with these things on their own, right, they like to find themselves in this place. And I think you're at this lesson of curiosity, even if you know that something someone has done is incorrect or not the best way to do it, following this line of questioning out of curiosity can help them get to the place where they're seeing the problem with their solution, or they're seeing a better solution to the problem or whatever it may be. So that you're helping you can help people through their own process through this, like open ended questions and like, Well, tell me how you did that. And what do you think what happened if we were to try this other thing and like, you could throw in some things? Me Maybe I'm really literally just but I do this?

Sally Netherwood 39:36
In a nutshell, that's coaching, that is coaching. Coaching is helping somebody else find the solution to their challenge or problem or choice. Yeah.

Emily Thompson 39:46
And it works. So I find it works and it builds. It builds this openness for you know, presented, actually in the C suite and all of my masterminding, we do this thing that we just call shady ideas, right where and we've talked about on the podcast Kathleen and I started doing this years ago with this idea of you. You just start having these conversations where you're just saying things, you're just presenting problems. And I feel like this curiosity piece and what I'm talking about of like getting people to their own solutions really opens up to the honesty that is real in not every solution is going to be the best, everything can kind of be improved, and people aren't defensive. whenever it comes to workshopping new ideas, whatever it may be. I think there's something very important, too, especially in this this conversation of leadership and thinking about how this curiosity can help lead people to solutions, without you giving them the solution. So without you telling them that the solution that came up was incorrect, more of let's have a nice question oriented conversation that can lead you to a better solution. I think that's also a very important skill to have. Especially when you're like me, and you just I don't like telling other people they're wrong, and rather than prove it to themselves,

Sally Netherwood 41:03
but I tell you, what, usually nobody's completely wrong. Hmm. So it's about holding them and finding which they did I go wrong, or which is the right stuff that I need to do again, but which point in the path did I take the wrong turn? Oh, I see. Now it was there, if I you know, so it's helping them do that. And it's a it's an very, so I when you're dealing with your kids, one's partner, they help employees or that people come to you with a problem, you know, when you're the boss, leader, manager, whatever, when you're in a position of authority, people come to you with a problem. And I always encourage people to see the problem as a beach ball. Remember those nice 1970s sort of inflating or maybe showing my age here, but inflatable beach balls, they're really light, and they're really easy to carry. And every problem that somebody comes to you with, you see it as a beach ball, and your job is to not touch the beach ball, is to not have it go in. And so they'll come in and they go, I've got a real problem. I don't know how to do this, and they start handing you, the beach ball. And your job as a leader and a coaching leader, as you've just described, is to have them leave your office or your desk or your telephone, knowing what they're going to do without you touching that beach ball wants. Because if you constantly provide solutions to the problem, you will end up with a desk full of beach balls that you will never get out from under and you are training your staff, or your team or your kids to come to you every time they've got a problem. And if you instead train them to be resourceful, and resilient and solve their own problems, you will get less and less people coming to you with their rituals.

Emily Thompson 42:53
Every boss was saying this to rewind, and listen to that, again. Play themselves. This is like this is the plague of the boss for sure, is growing a team and in the find themselves in constant review mode, right or problem solving mode for those people. So I think you just gave us a wonderful analogy for that. Okay, so listening and curiosity, those are the two skills, what do you have for us beyond that.

Sally Netherwood 43:26
So to really influence somebody to motivate somebody to get them to do what you need to do not in a Machiavellian way, just because they want to because they bought into it. There's four thing you have to know yourself first. So you have to really look down inside yourself and work out why you're doing this. What you do want, what what is this all for? What What do you need that person to do? Well, where are you today? And where are you going with this? And I think you did this beautifully. Emily in the CEO daycare. I was looking at that again the other day. And you know, you start that with a look inside yourself. So yeah, I've got it sitting here next to me. So I could remember, you know, you start with the money Mojo, which is what is my relationship with me? That's got nothing It seems to do with a building a business. I mean, what what's that got to do with business? But actually, it's looking inside yourself? What's my relationship with money? What do I fit? What do I want it for? What was it all about? You do values you do where you are in the change that you get everybody centered and clear with who they are? before they get into so what do I want and the next bit is so your intention settings and so on. So who am I get? Who do I need to be if I want to create this business. And so, and I love the way you do intentions and I love the way you do the monthly and I'm probably gonna steal that from you in my coaching. You may thank you because it's it's a way of saying that's me. My mind that's in my mind if I want to. So let's say for example, I'm a procrastinator, if I'm a procrastinator, I, but I've got this brilliant idea that I know is going to happen, I'm going to set the intention that I'll just do the first thing this month. So I'll just do the first thing, and then I'll do the next thing. And I am being realistic with myself about who I am, what I'm good at what I'm not so good at what I want to achieve or not. And then I'm taking charge of myself. So when managing myself, I'm taking responsibility for myself. And so those the first two stages of being a powerful leader is to understand yourself, and to be able to manage yourself to almost regulate yourself doesn't mean not be your full self, but it means just not off the hook. And I often have people come to me sort of saying, Oh, well, that's just me, you know, I'm late for everything. That's just me, as I've always been like that. That's just the way I am. And it's like, well, no, there isn't a gene for Lego, you know, you you didn't get conceived will write late on this one. There we are. You know, it's it's not like that. You've got into a habit, maybe a lifetime habit. But you've got into a habit of lateness. And so here's the phrase that I think one of the most liberating phrases is until now. Until now, I've been somebody who was late. Until now, I've been somebody who put off the important things. Until now I shied away from difficult conversations. Until now, I didn't give my full attention to people when I was listening to them until now. Because what that does is it puts it in the past, but maybe just only a second ago over your shoulder. But it's until now I was that person, which suddenly liberates you to say, Hmm, so from now on, I'm going to try being five minutes early. Or I'm going to try putting my phone down. When somebody comes to talk to me, I'm going to try. So until now is a great way. Instead of saying oh, I've always been like that. It's well until now I've been like that.

Emily Thompson 47:08
You can borrow? intention setting I'm borrowing until now. I would match to is also you pulled that on me recently. Did I do you did several weeks ago I'm recalling. And it was the most liberating thing for you to I don't even remember what the context was. We were talking about something. And you were like, what have you just said until now? And I was like, Oh my god, like the weight fell off.

Sally Netherwood 47:37
And it doesn't

Emily Thompson 47:38
ruin statement. the truest statement is just simply adding that sort of this is not an X and can you eight is it annex ng that will just say adding adding that to the beginning of your sentences. It does give you so much more potential and opportunity for what comes next. Yeah, I also want to know that what you're talking about here, and this like knowing who you are, and managing yourself is very much so at the core of being boss. And it's funny too, because we were actually working on some some updated values for being Boston the past couple of months. And I had the entire team working on this. And Cory actually one of the ones that he did, he circled leadership and I thought we are not a leadership brand. Or apparently so because what you what you just what you just said it, I think perfectly aligns with one of those core sort of mantras of being boss and being bosses owning who you are knowing what you want and actually making it happen. Right, you cannot own who you are, and know what you want, if you don't know who you are, right? period, and you can't make it happen if you are not managing yourself. So I think you just put me in my place when it comes to being boss and leadership. I appreciate that.

Sally Netherwood 48:58
I see you as I see this whole community as leadership, you know, it is about standing up for what you are willing and yearning to create in this world. Hmm, and getting on with it,

Emily Thompson 49:10
and getting on with it right and making no excuses and willfully putting anything that you do not want to take with you behind you.

Sally Netherwood 49:20
Yeah. And that's that's why that's a really great point because so often what got you to this point, so what got you to being able to launch your own business or got you to the point of being able to bring on a team member, your first team member or a sales person or whatever it might be the behaviors or the the leadership that got you to this point might not be what moves you forward. So the behavior the habits, the way of operating that have made you successful till now might slow you down might even sabotage you achieving it. So which is why this constantly learning about yourself, and reinventing yourself or nudging evolving yourself forwards, you've got to do that because the person that won the deal last week might not be the one that one wins next week steal that's twice the size or with a slightly different target audience got to keep evolving, for sure, which takes it to the foot. So the reason for doing it the other reason for doing this learning about yourself, and learning to regulate and manage yourself that which part of which which you use put into the world today is because as we said at the beginning, leadership is about influencing others. So the three and four, if you like, is learning other people noticing other people, which is that the listening and curiosity, listening and curious about yourself and listening, curious about other people. So standing into somebody else's shoes, we are so guilty as humans with the best of intentions, that when somebody looks like they need motivating, we will say the things that would motivate us. So I know if I were in your position, if I were in your position, I would want somebody to say this to me. So I'm gonna say it to you. So for example, expertise, some people are really motivated by being a specialist and really expert and highly thought of in something. And but if you've got somebody who's more of a generalist who wants to have a position that oversees all sorts of areas and wants to sort of be more of a big picture role, encouraging that person to become a sport, you should go to training course you should go on a training course and really get deep into this. Because you think and you're hearing yourself and go, Oh, yes, that'd be great. That's what I do. But you've got to then look at the impact you're having get curious, this, this doesn't seem to be working, then they're not motivated. And actually, what I know about this person is this. So you're constantly listening and being curious about what what information you're receiving, and what that's telling you and you put something back in and how does that land? Oh, that's the lights going out of their eyes with that. So let me even be honest about it and go, Well, I can see that I really do motivated you with that advice. What do you need? To go back to the dumb question? curiosity? What do you need? Okay,

Emily Thompson 52:18
what's number four?

Sally Netherwood 52:20
I shouldn't get rolled on before, did you? I was just thinking, I accidentally wrote number. Yeah, number one is self awareness. Yeah, right. Number two is learning to manage yourself. Number three is empathy, really. So it's really understanding how the other person feels. So number four, is then and motivating them or influencing them or exciting them along your you know, along with your cause, using what you've learned, using what you've learned, and managing yourself. So you go, I know that I would just be really motivated by getting I'd like an extra week's holiday every year. So I'm going to offer it to this person, but maybe that's not that's the last thing they want. I'm

Emily Thompson 53:05
really excited about this. Yes. Okay, we do.

Emily Thompson 53:11
We do have one question from a boss here live with this. And this is from Asandi. Hello, Asandi. And I will say as Asandi over here in the comments, earlier posted, bless and release. And I've heard her say that in the community a couple of times I've seen it, I think there is something so powerful to just even the ability to bless something and then obviously also releasing it. But her question is, what are the leadership challenges that your clients most frequently face? She's curious if how, and if it differs from bosses, you were navigating in the, in the States.

Sally Netherwood 53:50
I'm what my clients are all over the world. So I have a lot of clients in the States. In fact, I probably have equally equal numbers of American clients and UK clients and then a handful of others elsewhere. So I'm just gonna, I'm going to answer the first part because I can't get my I can't think how it's different for the states. I think the you know, there's different moods in different countries at different times, particularly this year, depending on what phase of the corona coaster you're on, you know, different mood. But I think honestly, and often I think women claim this one for themselves more than they need to is imposter syndrome, is I think you actually call them frosty feelings. You know, it's that kind of imposter syndrome. That feeling it's not it's not me, I'm not really the one to this, somebody must have already thought of this before me. And I have worked with the most confident alpha, you know, men and women and I cannot say it's exclusively that they've all had that but it's been Very rare to find somebody who doesn't have some form of imposter syndrome. It they just express it in different ways. So I think that is an I'm talking heads of global organizations right down to, you know, somebody who makes candles, Emily.

Emily Thompson 55:18
Right? Thank you so much for saying that. Because I often find and feel like this has actually come up many times. But it doesn't matter how often people hear at that everyone is experiencing this, everyone still feels like they're just experiencing it because they're just beginning or because they are in this one situation or because that's just them. And that's how they deal or whatever it may be, and that they're doing wrong, that by feeling this things like there's something just wrong. And granted, it could be more right. Like, you could not be feeling those things for sure. But everyone experiences them from candle makers, to CEOs of huge companies. Everyone experiences frosty feelings in one way or the other, which also just rolls into, and almost becomes our like, lifelong purpose not only like lifelong leadership, or lifelong learning and always being curious, but also consistently fighting our own imposter complex or frosty feeling so that we do keep showing up to do the work, then it's about time for us to start wrapping this up. So I would love to know from you if there's one have any last thoughts or any last like comments, any last tips you have for bosses who may be listening to this, who maybe needs to make that change from managing either themselves or others to really stepping into that leader role?

Sally Netherwood 56:44
Know that imposter syndrome is part of the job. So know that you're going to wonder if you're good enough for us? And the answer is maybe maybe not. You know, we're not always good at everything. But give it Don't let the imposters voice dictate whether you're good at it or not. On that last on that point. And I suppose the other thing I would say if you take anything if you take only one thing out of this whole hour, it's lesson, really practice your listening, you can you know, I've been listening professionally for 20 years, and I can still get better and better. And I learned more and more about listening and about learning through listening.

Emily Thompson 57:31
And where can people find more about you?

Sally Netherwood 57:35
They can find more about me at my website, which is Sally netherwood.com. Love it.

Emily Thompson 57:41
And my final final question, Sally, what makes you feel most boss

Sally Netherwood 57:49
creating a lightbulb moment and somebody saying that moment where they were over here and now something has shifted and they will never be back there again. It is they've just popped to a new place. Sometimes that's a little thing makes a big difference like and until now kind of moment. And sometimes in my work I'm privileged to to make quite profound shifts in people. And those have been really great

Emily Thompson 58:15
days. And I love it. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with us. This was as magical as I thought it would be Sally.

Sally Netherwood 58:26
Fun as I thought it would be.

Emily Thompson 58:32
If you're anything like me, you're feeling some inspiration after that chat. So the question is, do you want to have some of your own or sit in Well, I chat with guests, then I can't encourage you enough to join the being boss community where you'll have access to inspiring conversations at every level. Every member gets access to our Monday meetups and our community platform for posting questions and engaging with members. In the clubhouse you'll get access to additional content like the making a business podcast and clubhouse conversation calls like the one where this interview was recorded. And if you're a six figure boss looking for an inspiring group of like minded business owners to hold you accountable and help you do the work. Then check out the C suite which has access to everything else to learn more and join in by going to being boss club slash community. And until next time, do the work. Be boss