Your Inner Critic is a Big Jerk with Danielle Krysa

Emily Thompson 0:01
Hello and welcome to being boss episode number 98. This episode is brought to you by fresh books cloud accounting.

Being boss and work and life is being in it.

Kathleen Shannon 0:17
It's being who we are doing the work, breaking some rules. And even though we each have to do it on our own,

Emily Thompson 0:25
being boss is knowing we're in it together.

Kathleen Shannon 0:28
Today we're chatting with my good friend Danielle chrissa. Daniel has a BFA in fine arts and a post grad in graphic design. She is the writer curator behind the contemporary art site the jealous curator, Danielle has curated shows from Washington DC to Los Angeles, San Francisco to Vancouver. In 2014, she published two books both with Chronicle titled creative block and collage. Her third book, your inner critic is a big jerk is on shelves as of October 2016, you guys are not going to want to miss this interview, we get super vulnerable and really get a good peek behind the scenes of what it's like to run a creative business and everything involved with the creative process. Alright, you guys, it's about that time of year where I'm starting to freak out about my end of your taxes a little bit. But thankfully, I've had fresh books, cloud accounting, keeping track of everything for me. So I can look at my profit and loss statement, I can look at my expense reports and easily hand these things off to my accountant for all of my end of your taxes. If you guys are freaking out right now and trying to gather all your receipts and invoices and see how much money you made and how much money you spent. You've got to try out fresh books for next year. Just go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section, you're going to see how easy it is to invoice and get paid faster, how easy it is to track your expenses and have it automatically imported straight from your bank account. And next year, you won't be freaking out. Why does much? Um, Danielle, it's so good to have you back.

Danielle Krysa 2:14
Thank you for having me, Kathleen. And Emily. Know what you guys it's been like a year and a half.

Emily Thompson 2:21
I know I was just looking at my Skype thing. And it showed me your last two birthdays. Oh, I was like, wow, have we been Skype friends for two birthdays?

kind of crazy. Which kind of blew my mind that it was so long ago that we recorded first.

Kathleen Shannon 2:36
And you were one of our first being boss guests.

Danielle Krysa 2:40
I know. I'm honored.

Kathleen Shannon 2:42
We're so excited to have you back. What have you been up to you?

Danielle Krysa 2:48
writing books and quitting my day job, stuff like that. Alright, let's

Kathleen Shannon 2:53
start there.

Danielle Krysa 2:56
Did you know that I

Kathleen Shannon 2:57
think that Well, yeah. And because we do email a little bit back and forth. Yeah, hop on some chat. But um, I think that most people might assume that you had already been working for yourself or that the jealous curator was this huge, multi million dollar brand. I mean, you have a million followers on Instagram. So surely you're making a ton of money from that?

Danielle Krysa 3:23
Oh, yes. I just roll around. I just put all the money on the floor, and I roll around in it.

Kathleen Shannon 3:31
But in all seriousness, I would assume that you had already been working for yourself. So tell us about quitting the day job and making the leap full time into jealous curator and kind of what your plans are for that.

Danielle Krysa 3:44
Yeah, mid jump right now. It's a tiny bit scary. So yeah, I've been a graphic designer for 18 years. And I was doing a one year contract with the company that ended in June, this past June. And I could have renewed I could have done another year. I could have picked up other design jobs. But I thought it was kind of this perfect timing where I knew the new book was coming out in the fall. I was very burnt out and my son was just getting out of school and the last few summers I've barely seen him because I've just been working full time jobs, curator's basically full time. And, you know, I just thought this is crazy. Like I never see my kid. And so I purposely when he got out of school, I stopped working. I took the summer off with him. We had a great summer. He's just started school again in September, and then the new book comes out in October, so it was sort of this perfect time to jump. still totally scary, but the timing felt like the universe was like, do it now. And so I just decided to do it. But it's just it's tricky. Like I you know, I'm part of the being boss club on Facebook and Stephanie you know, it's so great reading other people's comments, because That's where I am right now. It's like, Okay, this isn't a paycheck every two weeks. dose curator is gonna be I mean, it's sort of been my high side hustle. And now it's like, my full time hustle because the money has to come in like little chunks here and there from a whole bunch of different little things. And so it's a matter of adding them all up to turn it into a job, right. And I've never made money from jealous curator because I've never wanted to sell ads. I've never wanted to write sponsored posts. And so there's no, there's no money there. So yeah, it's hard to come through my books, which again, is not a ton of money. People think, you know, writing a book, no, it's not that much money, and then speaking gigs, curating for people here and there. So it kind of adds up. But you have to be, yeah, you got to do some math. And you have to just trust I keep saying to my husband over and over, exhale, and trust. It's all it's all you can do, really.

Kathleen Shannon 6:04
So let's give people a little bit of a landscape of what you've got going on, especially those who aren't familiar with your brand. So you were doing graphic design kind of as your full time day job, even though I think a lot of people would kind of consider a year long contract still being your own boss, but you were busy enough. And you were taking orders from someone else enough that it made you feel like you weren't really, you didn't really have the flexibility and freedom that you would crave as your own boss.

Danielle Krysa 6:30
Yeah, for sure.

Kathleen Shannon 6:31
So you were doing graphic design. And then. And then the jealous curator consists of right now

Danielle Krysa 6:40
it started with a blog. Eight years ago, almost. Wow.

Kathleen Shannon 6:45
You've got an Instagram account, which is huge. You have a podcast? Yes. And you're still going strong with that?

Danielle Krysa 6:54
Yeah, I'm on episode this week will be Episode 70.

Kathleen Shannon 6:58
And so what else do you have going on? Like the blog and the podcast?

Danielle Krysa 7:02
Yeah. Well, the books. I've written three books now, in the last few years. And so that's why it's so demanding, too, because you really, when you're working on one, you'd like it to be your full time job so that you can focus but I had the jealous curator stuff, my daily posts and the podcast and my e newsletter, and bla bla bla bla bla, and I had my full time design job. And I have a son who just turned 10. And so trying to manage all of that is just so overwhelming. But yeah, jealous. curator landscape is just kind of getting cooler and cooler with it. So really, right now, this book is done. So really, right now it's just the daily vlog, the weekly podcast, the weekly news. And that's it right now.

Kathleen Shannon 7:48
And so you're going into jealous curator full time, and you've written the books under your name, but whenever it comes to the brand of the jealous curator and that business model, what are you thinking? How do you? Like it mean for that sound? Like what are you thinking? What

Danielle Krysa 8:02
are you thinking girlfriend?

Kathleen Shannon 8:06
What are you imagining? What are you dreaming? Like? What would be your favorite way to make money from the jealous curator?

Danielle Krysa 8:13
I have so funny that you say I have a little mental breakdown a couple years ago about oh my god, I don't know what I'm doing and what I like I knew I didn't want to design anymore. I knew I want to delve curator to be bigger. But what did that mean? And I'm sitting crying at my desk, and I share my home office with my husband. And he was like, okay, computers off phones off. Let's go for a drive. So remember this long drive? And he said, you know, what do you want to be doing? Do you want to curate more shows, because I've curated quite a few shows. And I've curated for companies like land of nod. I was curating their wall collection for a while. And I mean, I couldn't think about it on the drive. But by the time we got home, I said you know what, I want to write more. I love writing. I'm not trained as a writer, you know, the only writing I do is my blog post, but I love it so much. And shortly after that I was approached to do this third book, which was no longer interviews. No, you know, it was me writing 10 chapters. So it kind of felt like I put that out into the universe. And I crystallized in my mind that that was something I really wanted to do. So I think there's more books coming. Well, in fact, I know there's more books coming, but it's top secret

Kathleen Shannon 9:28
interest. Okay.

Danielle Krysa 9:31
So I'm working on a new pitch for a new book, which I'm so excited about as soon as I can tell you, I will tell you, it's really cool. Um,

Kathleen Shannon 9:42
he said, email me, okay.

Danielle Krysa 9:45
And so I really want to do that. I don't know. You know, it's funny. I'm such a control freak, which you know, about me and I've been trying to, like I said, trust. I've just been trying to take a deep breath. Keep my ears open, but not feel like I need to be jamming myself down people's throats or you know, looking for opportunities that aren't really there. It's just sort of like, Okay, I'm just gonna relax a minute. I've built a very strong brand. And I know that. And when opportunities come my way, if I feel like they fit under that brand umbrella, I say, yes, you know, and figure it out later. And if opportunities come that, you know, might be lucrative or whatever, but it just doesn't feel like the jobs curator, I say no. And so honestly, to be easily, I don't really know what's coming next. And I'm strangely fine with that. I've never felt like that. I want

Emily Thompson 10:38
to talk about that for a second. So I know a lot of creatives and like the controlling or need to control everything is a common thing with most of us. And a lot of us have a hard time dealing with that idea of like, needing to control what happens next. But like balancing that with just trusting the process. So can you talk us through like a little bit of that, like, mindset stuff that's going on in there to help you like, let go and just enjoy the ride?

Danielle Krysa 11:06
Yeah, it's hard, right? Because you've got mortgages to pay, you've got, you know, like, you need to be organized, you need to know where the money is coming from. So it's this, it is a weird balancing act right now. And I mean, honestly, I'm coming from a place where I just worked really hard for the last year on something I, you know, wasn't that passionate about, but it made me a ton of money. And I padded my bank account, we pretended that we were still super poor, and we just didn't spend that money, we just save, save, save, save, save. So we had a really nice safety net for now. So that's part of why I can trust is that I've kind of got this six months time where I can kind of play around and figure out what what it is that I want to do. But I don't know, I just feel like I can get myself so worked up. And so anxious and lying awake at night and writing lists and feeling freaked out about all of it. I and I realized maybe it's because I'm getting old, that literally gets me nowhere, like gets me nowhere, except, you know, into the middle of a panic attack. So I'm a smart person, I'm well trained, you know, I've got a good foundation. And for me, it's just like, I just have to trust that I've done the right things. I mean, I'm still hustling, I'm still emailing people every day, I'm still, you know, trying to set myself up and but you know, like for this book tour, for example, I really want to do something in New York. And, of course, my publicist saying, Well, you know, you need to be paid to get there and, you know, blah, blah, blah, which is great. Yes, you want to get paid to get places. But it's like, honestly, I will hitchhike across the United States to get to New York, because it's good for my brand. You know, like whether I got there because someone paid my way and put me up at the Ritz, you know, or I hitchhiked, it's great for my brand to say, Oh, just curators in New York. So I make those decisions, right, like, you know, if I'm willing to pay it out of pocket, because I know it will then perpetuate the brand. And instead of sitting there being like, Well, sorry. Oh, no, you keep going. No, that's I'm done. No, no.

Kathleen Shannon 13:25
Well, I want to first I want to say like thank you for sharing such a vulnerable behind the scenes, I think it's so easy to look at someone who has a hundreds of 1000s of followers on Instagram and has such a reputable brand like yours. And to hear that even you with all the the work and the content and the fame, that you're even still struggling in the middle of the night with these panic attacks of worry and anxiety about where does the next paycheck come from? And what does this business model look like? And I think that all of us experienced that. And I don't think that enough creative entrepreneurs and solopreneurs see that struggle behind successful brands. And I can guarantee you every single successful brand you see out there has someone behind the scenes freaking out about what's next. Yeah,

Emily Thompson 14:16
yeah, well, and it makes me think about how you know, whenever you're first starting out, you think like, if I can just get there, then I'll be fine. But the path of the entrepreneur is that this happens over and over and over again, you'll get the next thing and then you have to wait for the next thing. And while you're waiting for the next thing, you're freaking out a little bit, but you get the next thing. And so it's just a cycle that you sort of have to like learn to deal with gracefully, and with trust. And with some amount of calm and a little bit of control. Maybe Yeah, yeah. And except that you'll get through it. And it's not going to be the last time this happens either.

Danielle Krysa 14:56
No, you know, it's so funny. I think maybe the reason I've gotten to this Place of being a bit more common is that I've been doing my podcast for just over a year. And every week I talked to artists, and so many of them, you know, most of them are full time working on it. So many of them have said, like, there are these lows, right? And you'll have this great success. And then you go into this law, and you don't know that there's going to be another success, you're just in the law thinking, Oh, crap, am I done? Was that it? Like, am I ever gonna peak that high again? And then you peak again? And then you low? And you're down there? And you're thinking, Oh, no, was that the end. And after you've done that enough times, you kind of start to understand that, like, you know what, the lowest fine, there will be another peak, as long as you're still listening. As long as you're still looking forward, there will be another one. And you kind of have to be okay, when you're in that low. Otherwise, you're just going to drive yourself crazy. You know, and so that's kind of what I'm trying to do is I'm in a bit of a weird lull right now, while I'm waiting for things to happen with a new book, and maybe they will, and maybe they won't, but I'm gonna have to react to that when it happens, you know?

Kathleen Shannon 16:06
So a lot of what we're talking about here actually relates a lot to the creative process, which is something that you spend a lot of time thinking about and writing about. And I'm guessing the new book is about creative process a little bit. Yeah,

Danielle Krysa 16:20
that's about the new book, or the one that's about to come out. The one that's about to come out. The

Kathleen Shannon 16:25
reason why you're on this podcast is so the writing promote the book.

Danielle Krysa 16:30
Oh, yeah. That. Buy it every local store. Yes. So this new book is called your inner critic is a big jerk, and other truths about being creative. It was going to be called your inner critic as an asshole. Because I think it's more descriptive and more correct. But Barnes and Noble wouldn't carry it. Oh, no. So we had to change it to big Turk just so but there's a donkey on the cover. So that where we had a little wink to the ass,

Kathleen Shannon 16:57
still on the cover? And do you still have a chapter called your inner critic as an asshole?

Danielle Krysa 17:02
Nope. We had to change that to you had to change that too. Yeah. Okay. So

Kathleen Shannon 17:06
based jerk. This is the first time you're really speaking from your voice. So on your blog for years, it's been about looking at artwork, and reacting to that artwork, and how it might make you jealous. And we talk in the first interview with you about why jealousy, it's not necessarily a bad thing. And we can touch on that again, here. You've got your podcast, where you're talking to other artists and creative block where you're really featuring other artists. But this is your first book from your voice, speaking to the creative process that you've been through both as I think an artist and writer like probably anything creative that you do, right? Yeah.

Danielle Krysa 17:47
That was very meta. I think I told you guys, I think I was working on this last time we talked

Kathleen Shannon 17:53
you were because last time we talked, you were talking about how you were breaking down your time we really focused on time management and how you were doing all the things and how you would dedicate one day to each thing. And I think on Fridays you were actually working on this book.

Danielle Krysa 18:07
Yes, I was. Yeah. And I remember that I was in fall on freakout I believe, um, it was very weird. I've said this, I said it to you guys. And I'll say it again, it was very meta, because I'm supposed to be writing these 10 chapters that are the truth, the 10 truths about being creative person. And I was, I had to be so vulnerable. And I'm supposed to be this expert. But I was having to face all these demons of my own. And so I'd be sitting there crying as I was writing because I was having all these crazy aha moments, about my own process about how I felt about my own artwork, how I felt about writing this thing, all these different that it was just the weirdest experience, and I'm really proud of it. But yeah, it's a bit hard on sleeve. Like it's a bit scary that in, you know, in this October, it's, you know, on shelves around the world, and it's like, wow, that's all my stuff. That's all. Everything I'm thinking about is now on our bookshelf. It's a little bit scary.

Emily Thompson 19:11
That makes even more excited to read it.

Kathleen Shannon 19:14
I can't wait. I can't wait to hear it from your voice. I've been such a fan of yours for so long. And we've been friends for a long time now, too. I just I can't wait. But let's talk a little bit about the creative process. What were some of your favorite chapters were Where did you have some of your own biggest aha was in writing this book?

Danielle Krysa 19:35
Let me see. Let me just take a look at the table of contents here. I happen to have a copy right here. Okay, let's see. Probably the two biggest are the inner your inner critic is a big jerk, like really distilling and like a lot of people don't take the time to think about their inner critic. You know, they just think oh, I suck like but they don't actually take the time to think about that and realize that it's another entity, like your inner critic is basically other voices from your past that you have morphed into this, like, jerk that lives inside of you. Right? Like, it's either comments that came from a teacher comments that came from a snarky, you know, Mom, whatever, you know, that you have somehow transformed into your inner critic. So, I had never really thought about that, you know, in detail. And so that chapter was really good for me, there was a lot of crying there. blank paper can be blinding. I really liked that chapter. Because that happens to so many creative people, like writers, musicians, you know, when you're, when you're told to be creative, it's like, Oh, my God. It's a deer in headlights, right? You've got this blank, you've got a blank notebook, you can write whatever you want. You've got a blank canvas, you can make whatever you want. It's a bit daunting. And that's often when your inner critic flares up. And it's like, Don't ruin it. You know, you're gonna mess this up. And so that was really good. And I actually, throughout the book, I reached out to different writers that I know artists that I know and said, How do you deal with this? There's this artist, I love Lola, Donna Who do you know, Lola's work, she has been big, huge, beautiful, abstract paintings. She's from Ireland. And I thought her whole studio is just giant canvases hung up beside each other cuz she's got several on the go. And I was like, that is literally my nightmare. Like, surrounded by giant white cameras is like, you know, you wake up in a sweat. And so I messaged her, and I'm like, Can you tell me why you like that? You know, or do you live in a constant state of fear? And so she wrote a really cool blurb for the book. And so like, I've got stories from different people about how they, why they think it's great. And it's like, oh, so suddenly, it's not just my thoughts and whatever, it's getting outside perspectives. And that was so like, oh, okay, like I totally get, you know, where Lola's coming from. I also had a writer and artist from Vancouver named Kim worker, and she wrote a book called mighty ugly. So I had her write a little section in this chapter. It's so funny. I love this everyone should do it. Especially with a group of friends hilarious, have a bad art night can host these bad art nights. And she purposely, like the goal is to make the ugliest piece of crap you've ever made in your life, because then there's nowhere to go but up. And I just thought that was so hilarious, right? And it's just like, pick the ugliest colors, the worst materials just like that, you know, you can't, you can never make anything worse. And if you do it with like yummy food and wine, it's even funnier. Right?

Kathleen Shannon 22:55
So what I'm seeing from this is that even as you're writing a book, from your own voice, about the creative process, you're still really tapping your creative Wolfpack. And you're really reaching out and saying, across all of your work, we're not in this alone.

Unknown Speaker 23:15
Yeah,

Kathleen Shannon 23:15
I what I'm feeling is that the creative process really is this just big, kind of like, mushy sphere of everyone figuring it out as they go, and the more friends you can take along the way, the better. Yeah,

Danielle Krysa 23:29
one. That's what I love about you know, being Boston, what you guys are doing is like, it's this amazing network of people that can reach out and ask questions and, you know, be upset or be happy and congratulate each other. It's really cool. And same goes for all this. There's another chapter speaking of that, called creating an a vacuum sucks. And that was another like, Oh, God. So I'm writing about sharing. And I am terrified. I can share till the cows come home with jealous curator with my own collages. Oh, no, no, like they are alone on a dusty shelf in my studio for no one to see. And here I'm writing a chapter about how important it is to share your work and reach out and create your tribe. And I wasn't doing it. And I just felt like what a fraud, you know, and so I forced myself last Christmas, I started making these collages that I was really proud of. And what I used to do on Instagram was I would Instagram like a corner of the work but I would never show the whole thing for fear of it being criticized. So I was like, okay, Danielle, time to man up. And I actually would Instagram the full collage and hashtag it, Danielle Chris art. So I was naming it, calling it like this is mine. And it was a really good way to start putting that out in the world, you know, and as I didn't write the book in order, I sort of jumped around from chapter to chapter and so that was one of the first ones I wrote And through the whole rest of the book, I was like, Yeah, why do I feel like I need to write this book in a vacuum? You know, like, That's crazy. I have access because of jaws curator, I have access to these amazing creative people with their own ideas and their own experiences. Like why do I feel like this book needs to only be my word. So it's, it doesn't you know, so I started reaching out to all these different people. My friend, autumn reeser, who's an actress, wrote a great story about getting slammed it when she was in UCLA theater. And Martha rich, who illustrated the book wrote a story about being told when she was in her undergrad by her first year drawing teacher that she couldn't draw, and that she should do something else. So she switched into sociology, Oh, she didn't even do an art degree like she switched, because this guy told her she couldn't draw and look at her now.

Kathleen Shannon 25:49
And so I know that you had a very similar experience in college as well. And as you were starting to get a little more brave now about sharing that full collage and not just the corner of it. Have you received any criticism, since putting your own artwork out there? Because I think that it's one thing for sure to have had those formative experiences in college where someone tells us that we're shit. And it's usually from like, a bitter professor who, whatever. Yeah, I could have words there. Yes. But um, but now we face the world of internet trolls, and people who lack common humanity whenever it comes to commenting on other people's work. So I'm curious if you have actually dealt with any outer criticism, how, maybe how that's worked with your inner critic, and how you get past that now as like a grown ass woman?

Danielle Krysa 26:44
Well, luckily, that has not happened with those collages yet. And I don't know if it's because I mean, they're on my jobs curator. You know, feed. So I don't know, if it's just because they're my friends. And they're my fans. And so they'll say nice things, as I always say to my husband. No, it's just because they it's just because they like me. He's like, No, it's not. So I haven't actually had anything yet. But I think I mentioned this to you guys last time. That's what I'm really worried about with this book. Is is the criticism that's gonna come, you know, back from this book, like, she's not a writer, why did you think she could write this book, you know, it's, it's not insightful. It's a bunch of, you know, junk. Like, I'm really scared of that. And I have to, I said this to you guys. Awesome. I have to trust that I did. I mean, I'm really proud of it, there's nothing I would change. When I handed off the manuscript Chronicle, I was really proud. And so check back with me in six months. Because, you know, I know there will be criticism, there is criticism of everything, right, especially if it's on a big stage, if there's a spotlight on it, there's gonna be criticism. So I'm just gonna do my very best, there's a chapter in there about criticism. And so I'm just going to do my very best to take my own advice, which is basically pay attention to where that criticism is coming from, if it's coming from a troll, you can discard it, you know, and obviously, it still hurts your feelings. We're still human. But it really means nothing. Truly, is it comes from, you know, a critic at the New York Times, and or something, you know, and it's like, Whoa, you have to look for the nugget of truth in that criticism, right? They know what they're doing. So, you know, maybe there's a truth in it. So that, but it doesn't stop you. I used to let criticism completely stopped me, it won't stop me from writing the next book. But I will take that, you know, I might cry a tiny bit, maybe eat some ice cream, I don't know. And then take that information and start working on the fourth book. And, you know, I let criticism stop me from making art for about 15 years. And I talked to a lot of students now and I make them put up their right hand and I make them Swear to me, make them take a little oath, that if something like that happens to them, they're welcome to cry. They can have an ice cream sundae on me. But I need them the next day to pick up their pencil. And the next day and the next day and the next day. And I have to take that advice, too.

Emily Thompson 29:15
I love that. And I love that. Like what this is all sort of telling me is Kathleen and I are like diving into writing a book as well. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you, Kathleen, show me your happy face.

Kathleen Shannon 29:30
The proposal process I don't know if that's the hardest part or the easiest part, but I'm feeling a little bit.

Unknown Speaker 29:36
Honestly, it's all hard. It is all hard.

Emily Thompson 29:39
Good. This is just the beginning.

Kathleen Shannon 29:41
But our agent was like you have to go into this positive so we're staying positive

Emily Thompson 29:46
Yeah, happy face. Yeah, happy face. But But what I'm really what I'm really taking away from this is that it's like you don't have to be completely perfect in your area to be the expert at it. Like even you writing a book about your inner critic or stealing Dealing with your inner critic. And so it's not something where you have to have this totally figured out to to get to get going, like, part of the process of sharing and teaching and writing, and all those things is continuing to cultivate that expertise within yourself. So it's not about like, oh, I've done it. Now I can write a book. It's like, I want to continue doing it. So I'm going to write a book. Yes. As we're writing, like our, our proposal for hubback. I'm like, guys, like, sometimes I'm not the most boss person in the world, like, how are we writing a book about being boss, but I definitely see it as a journey for me to like, to begin putting all of those things really hard core into my life. And that process of writing, it will just like, kick us up to the next level.

Unknown Speaker 30:49
It will,

Danielle Krysa 30:50
it's amazing, it is transformative, my work has improved. So much my writing skills have improved so much. My self confidence has been amazing. And you know, depending on who you're working with, and I have an amazing editor, who's now my literary agent, and Kate Woodrow, and she is so fantastic. And well, she was the one that approached me about doing this book. And I, I mean, I just went silent. And I was like, I don't think I do. I said, Do you think I can do it? And she was like, Yes. And I trust Kate so much that if, if she believed in me, I thought, well, who am I not to believe in me, you know, and through the whole process. Every time I had a freak out, or whatever, I would reach out to her and go, I'm freaking out. And you know, she talked me off the ledge. And the whole time, I just kept thinking, I trust her. So I have to trust in this process. And you're right, Emily, like, I think it comes across as more authentic to like, if you've got it all figured out. And you write a book that, you know, here's all the answers to everything you've ever wondered. It's like, come on, like we're all human. Nobody has it figured out. Right? And I think being honest and being like, yeah, I I'm not boss all the time. Nor is anybody because if that's what they're all expecting to get out of this, like, that's overwhelming for everybody. You know, and it's just like, we're all human, there's gonna be days where you are a boss and rocking it out. And there's gonna be days where not so much, you know, and that's okay. Like that, when we're talking about loads and peaks. I've had several artists say like, it's okay to not be creative genius every day. Like, it's same with boss, it's like, you can't be that every single day, you have to be okay, on those days where you're creatively quiet, or, you know, entrepreneurial, Lee quiet, and just sort of word. And just kind of be okay with those quiet days, knowing that you're just recharging your system, knowing that you're going to come back and kick ass another day. Because what I used to do to myself was I thought that if I wasn't cranking out a masterpiece, every time I went into the studio, or every single day on, you know, whatever I was doing creatively, it was a failure. And that's truly insane. You know, and so I think just being honest, and knowing that there's those lulls and those highs and those days that you're quiet in the days that you're kicking ass is real. Basically,

Emily Thompson 33:29
I like it.

Danielle Krysa 33:30
I'm so excited to see what you guys do. It's everything that you've done so far is just been so amazing to watch. And it's so cool. And the community you've developed, it's just the most amazing group of people and I can't even wait to see what you guys have next.

Kathleen Shannon 33:47
Oh, thanks. We were really proud of what we've been able to create and spin doing what we have the most fun with. And, you know, Daniel, it's funny, because I feel like I actually mentioned you in the book so far. After that I'm writing I talk a little bit about

Danielle Krysa 34:04
the detail pretty I am.

Kathleen Shannon 34:07
I said Dan? Yes, is

Unknown Speaker 34:10
pretty. Okay. It's very cool.

Kathleen Shannon 34:13
And she's talented. Um, so I mentioned how I mentioned the story. And I may have mentioned this in our first interview how years ago, I was still just personal blogging. Nobody knew who I was, and that was fine. And I had just gone to Mount Everest and I was telling you at all summit that I just wanted to travel and write. And I had no idea how that would show up in my life. But right now I am basically writing for a living or podcasting or communicating otherwise, and traveling at least once a month. So it didn't really show up the way that I imagined it. I was like this travel writer who is on a plane having fabulous, you know life traveling to the Bahamas, and then writing about a resort and then that article shows up in the plane magazine, right? It's not like that. It's a little bit different than I expected. But it's still showed up. And I think it showed up because I've continued to show up. So I want to talk a little bit about those lols and peaks a little bit, because we get asked this all the time, how do you find the motivation to work whenever you're in those laws, and I know for me, I've experienced personally, that creativity is more like a muscle that I have to exercise than it is a thing that shows up for me whenever, you know, I can start to rely on my creativity whenever I'm working out like a muscle. And if I start to pause, I will fall out of it. And I've seen that happen with my personal blog. I don't write there anymore. Even though I still kind of crave that kind of creative outlet. I haven't exercised that muscle and it's basically atrophied. And so I'm curious to hear what your goals and peaks look like, whenever it comes to motivation and inspiration. And finding your way back to your creativity if you have taken a break.

Danielle Krysa 36:14
Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Um, should we? Let's see, should we talk about art or writing?

Unknown Speaker 36:22
Cuz they're kind of different.

Kathleen Shannon 36:23
Let's talk about well, you know, but I also think that it kind of apply to even your business model, right? Yeah. Right now with the jealous curator, you're listening, and you're open to ideas, and you're staying present, and you're still doing the work, you're still emailing and doing things. So even in your own probably artistic process and writing process. I mean, maybe Yeah, go into it. Like, what are the difference between the littles and the peaks between writing and art and business?

Danielle Krysa 36:57
Mm hmm. It's funny, because I have them in very different categories. In my mind, which I'm trying to work on, like, one of the things in our critics will flare up and say is that things like art, if you're not a full time artist, it's frivolous. And it's a hobby, and it's silly, and it goes to the bottom of your priority list. So I have to work very hard at making sure it's, you know, that there's chunks of time in the week that are dedicated to it, like you say, otherwise, that muscle just stops working. And I don't go to the studio for months. So I have to force myself even more, because that feels frivolous. You know what I mean? But then the writing feels more like a job because there's deadlines from other people. You know, I've got an editor waiting, and I've got you know, Chronicle waiting and whatever. So you know, that you have, it's more of a job and you know, that you people are relying on you so that I take more seriously, once again, it shouldn't be different. It should be, I should consider both of them my job and important to me and have the same priority. But anyway.

Kathleen Shannon 38:01
So it's funny that you say that, because just yesterday, Emily and I were meeting with our agent, I think that we share an agent.

Danielle Krysa 38:07
I think we did. Yeah,

Kathleen Shannon 38:08
we share the company. Laura Lee. Yeah. So Laura Lee.

Danielle Krysa 38:13
They told me that they were going to talk to you guys. And I was like, Yeah, my fingers crossed. And then you messaged and said that you got an agent. And I was like, Oh, I hope it's them. They're awesome. They're there.

Kathleen Shannon 38:22
So we had all but given up on traditional publishing until we talked to them, and I just felt like they got it and had our back. So we've loved working with Laura Lee, and we were talking to her yesterday, in a moment of feeling like we've added this book writing process on top of everything else. And so whenever it comes to what Emily and I are doing, we have we have to pay the bills, we have families to feed. And so whenever a book that will be coming out in 2018 I know I'm going to get us a paycheck, maybe ever we have to look at the thing that's going to make us some money first and how do we prioritize everything our lives? So coming back around to art feeling frivolous? For you, if writing is a job, and that's what's going to put food on the table or potentially be an investment in your brand and your career moving forward, then yeah, like doing a collage might actually literally be frivolous? If it's not the priority, so set

Danielle Krysa 39:25
that and I like

Kathleen Shannon 39:28
vouch for your inner critic.

Danielle Krysa 39:29
No, no, I know. But like if I if I was more gutsy all of those clauses we would be for sale as originals and available as prints and it would be the prints would be passive income. Have I done that? No, I have not have hundreds and hundreds of people asked me to do that and said that they would buy them in a heartbeat. Yes. What am I doing you guys what am I doing?

Kathleen Shannon 39:53
What are you doing? This really I love

Danielle Krysa 39:56
every one of the chapters. Let me see I don't know, because my inner critic is telling me that it's frivolous. So anyway, there is news coming on that I am going to start selling stuff very soon. But I've been putting it on the back burner. Because I don't, I think it's because nobody else, I would have grown a lot of my jobs. I've had a boss, and they tell me when things are due, and blah, blah, blah. And so, same with writing the books, I've got a boss, I've got Chronicle telling me when my deadlines are, and so I take it more serious. It's I'm having an epiphany, as I'm saying this out loud. With my art, nobody is telling me, we need 10 new pieces by this date, you know, and they're going to be for sale as printed. But like nobody's telling me to do that. So in my little To Do List mind, it doesn't count.

Kathleen Shannon 40:50
Okay, so I love that we're having this discovery, I

Emily Thompson 40:53
are feeling good about this.

Kathleen Shannon 40:56
Because this is a huge issue with our bosses who are creating, who are carving out the dream job for themselves is just like that blinding blank sheet of paper. whenever it comes to the creative process. It totally is the same for business model. Whenever the sky's the limit, whenever you could literally be selling anything and you have no deadlines, then sometimes no deadlines are ever made. Yes. So this is where we're constantly talking about having that business bestie that you're having a conversation with. Danielle, I would be happy to be your business bestie and check in with you once a month and be like, Where are those collages? Yeah, so let her do that. I would love to do that. But like, but there are also ways that you can start to do that for yourself. So like, I would encourage you, my friend, to put it on your calendar, create those deadlines for yourself and treat them as seriously as the deadlines that you meet for your publisher. And talk about confidence, like self confidence that you get through writing a book, the self confidence that you get whenever you complete your own project for yourself and start to sell it without anyone telling you what to do.

Unknown Speaker 42:05
Good dream,

Emily Thompson 42:07
this really brings up for me this like, I don't know, rebelliously creating mindset, like you don't need someone else to tell you to do the thing. You want to do the thing and you're gonna do it and complete it. And I find I find that the that the creative entrepreneurs who feel the most timid, are the ones who don't push themselves the hardest, but like the ones who like have that innate, like rebellious nature of like, I don't need people to tell me what to do. I'm going to do this thing exactly how I want to do it and launch it and make it do and put all my energy into it like that rebellious nature is I feel one of the driving forces, and we all have it somewhere. It's just tapping into it. Yeah, but I agree. There's not nothing feels better than launching your thing. Like just based on your own want and need to get it out there.

Danielle Krysa 43:00
Well, and see, I think that's what jealous curator is for me. Like, that's, that's been my passion. That's been my thing. I am so rebellious and like so like, watch this, everybody. And I've made this like amazing brand by myself. I've never, you know, had help. I've just done it all on my own. And then you add the art to that. And it's just like, oh my god again. It was, I think over and over. Yeah. Like, um, I think it's too much for my brain right now too. Because Finally, like the problem with my art is that I did put it on hold for a long time. I didn't exercise that muscle for a long, long time, because of writing creative block, which was the first book and you know, it's filled with all those unblocking projects. I started forcing myself to do those all through 2015. I did one a month and posted it on my site for people to do it with me and I had major breakthroughs. And so starting this past Christmas, Christmas 2015 I decided I was going to make a collage a day. And on the very first morning of Charlie's Christmas break, I was lying in bed and I just got this little flash in my mind a big paint splotch with a little dude stand up like a collage little dude, I haven't used paint in years. And I told my husband, I was like, Oh, I just had this picture in my head and he was like, okay, and I was like, I think I'm gonna try making that today. And I have not looked back. I've made over 100 of them. I love like close to 200 probably and I see no end in sight. So it's been very new this this burst of artwork out of me really you know, and so I'm making it was my first step. I feel like I nailed it. I'm so I've never I'm 43 I've never been so happy with my work in my life. And I've been making art since I was a kid. I'm sharing it check, like finally sharing it, you know, it's just like, okay, that's cool. Next step, selling it. And so I feel like I I'm at the precipice of that. So but I've had to take my my own time, you know, because right from the beginning, people were like, sell them. And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on. I felt like I need I was, for the first time in my life. Having fun in the studio I embraced being humorous. I was told in art school, I made funny work. And I was told that I would never be taken seriously if the work wasn't serious. So I squash that in myself. And you guys know, I'm hilarious.

Unknown Speaker 45:33
Right?

Danielle Krysa 45:35
In my life, and the way I write does curator it's funny. But in my art, I was trying to make my art so serious, so I be taken seriously. And it was just like, you know, square peg round hole. Finally, with this series, it's fun and light. And I just embraced that. And so I was enjoying so much making work that was making me laugh out loud by myself in the studio. And finally enjoying art making for the first time in years. And I just felt like kind of wanted to hold on to that a tiny bit for myself a little bit longer before I opened myself to critics before I opened myself to sell, sell, sell. And oh, you know what people are really into cat collages. I better do more of those. It's like, you know what, I only want to do the one cat I'm moving on to other things. And I, I needed that time to kind of explore what I wanted to do and where I wanted it to go. In the meantime, I had jealous curator going on, which was super creative, and my outlet and my day job. So do not like the day job love jealous curator feel like I'm boss, then the artworks a little step behind you know, so it's just, I will and I will be your You can be my buddy Kathleen, and you can help me through this. But um, I feel like I'm almost there. But I also feel like it was fine to have that quiet time to sort it out. See, I've

Kathleen Shannon 47:01
learned so much from this too. I feel like I'm craving that quiet time, hobbies situation. But

Danielle Krysa 47:10
I think what social media people feel like the minute you have a good idea, the minute you've got something you're supposed to share it and sell it and determine it's like a hold on. Maybe it's not, you know, you don't want to hold yourself back. You don't want to never jump because you're too scared to jump. But I don't think there's anything wrong with being keeping it to yourself for a little bit until it feels right. You know,

Kathleen Shannon 47:31
see, I feel like I have the opposite issue where I have the fear of missing out. Yes, I have the fear of missing out that if so, for example, being boss, it started as a podcast is started as a passion project, we were super excited about it, we thought it might get our individual businesses a little more business, we had no idea that we could turn this into a business on its own. And we love doing it. And we quickly saw that if we didn't go ahead and start figuring out a way to monetize and create a business model around being boss, we might miss out right even signing with an agent and looking at a 2018 published date for this book that we're writing. That's whenever my inner critic starts flaring up and asking is being boss even going to be a thing and 2018. And just kind of trusting that that is going to be there. But I definitely have that fear of missing out where I'm almost afraid to create something just for fun. Or again, that priority situation where I'm asking myself, okay, but what's going to put food on the table right now. And then I need to give Fox a bath to bed. And I think I'm still maybe in survival mode. Also you

Danielle Krysa 48:50
are he's little Yeah, it's different, like Charlie's 10 it's a different life than when you have an almost three year old. You know,

Kathleen Shannon 48:56
I did want to circle back around to that too, though, because I think that this is really interesting. I talk to you a lot during my pregnancy. And even before then about what it was like to have a kid and balance a creative career with being a mom. And you've always put a big priority on being a mom. And I think it was interesting because I think a lot of us put a huge emphasis on that postpartum time like directly postpartum, like taking off three months or six months or a year of work. And so we talked a lot about that. But what's really interesting as now that fox is getting closer to three, and you kind of mentioned this with Charlie being 10 missing out a whole summer. I think that we think as they get older, we'll need less time with them. But I'm starting to see as fox is getting older, I actually need more time with them. Like there's more formative things happening now that I want to be a part of like I honestly wasn't super concerned about being there for the first time he rolled over right? Not important but I do want to be there. The first time he gets his feelings hurt by a friend. You know, I want to be there the first time he has to defend his pink shoes. Yeah, I want to be there for those things, right? Yeah.

Danielle Krysa 50:11
Yeah, that's what I. And again, because we're the What did you call the one and done club and done? Yeah. That's how I've always felt like I knew early on, I would only have the one and I don't know, I just didn't want to miss anything. It's such a. It's such a short time. Like, I would definitely remember the first time at all. It wasn't Charlie, like,

Unknown Speaker 50:34
three or four. Yeah, he was young, or Yeah, it

Danielle Krysa 50:37
was the first time I'd loved him overnight. And, and he's 10. And suddenly, his friends are really important. And he's like, kind of hanging with them more than he hang. You know, he's still a bit of a mama's boy, but not really, I'm starting to see like that's changing, you know. And now I'm like craving even even though two and three and four was manic and 24. Seven. couldn't miss it. And so the thing I Oh, and I said this to you way back when his work will always be there, especially when you're someone like you or Emily, you know, like, or anybody listening to this probably works always going to be important. Creativity is always going to be important. Yes, even when they're little, you have to make time for that I still made time for that. I started jealous curator when he was two and a half. Because I needed a creative outlet. I wrote the first book when he was in kindergarten, you know, when I would work on it when he was at school. And so I still needed that for myself. But, um, he kind of has no idea I have a job because I make sure that, you know, when he's home, I'm hanging with him. And when he goes back when he goes to bed, then I worked on midnight or whatever. And I don't know, it's just really important for me that he has those amazing childhood memories of his mom. Oh, you know what he said to me? Not very long ago. He's quite a good writer. And he said, um, I was working on this new book, and he goes, Mommy, are you an author? And I was like, Oh, well, I yes, I guess so. And he's just quiet for a second he goes, I think I might like to be an author when I grow up. And my heart melted because I loved that. I don't just make grilled cheese and bake cookies. I do do that. But he also sees me kicking ass. You know, like, he's, I got to, when I did create a blog, I spoke at Pixar. And we didn't have enough money and he was too little. And he didn't come with me. But they invited us back last year last fall for Charlie to go to the premiere of The Good Dinosaur with the friends and family VIP night at Pixar on the campus to see the movie before it was released to the public. So we went to San Francisco and did this and my friend that works there gave us this huge tour. We got to see everything but it was Saturdays and nosers we got to go everywhere. And we left after four or five hours in turn, you said Mommy, that was the best day of my life. And I love that because of jealous curator and me working my ass off my kid. He was nine at the time. Got to go to Pixar behind the scenes like are you kidding me? So I love that my parenting and my creative passions are kind of, you know, overlapping and he gets to be part of it. And he gets to see a woman, you know, kicking ass and taking names as my husband would say. Amen. Amen. Yeah. So we end there.

Kathleen Shannon 53:36
Right?

Unknown Speaker 53:40
I have no more.

Kathleen Shannon 53:41
I feel like I could keep talking to you for another hour, we know we wrap it up. And I want to ask you something that we ask a lot of our guests, which is, what is something that you think our listeners can take away from this conversation? Or, you know, from your experience as a creative that will help them be more boss in their work in their life?

Danielle Krysa 54:04
I think it's that trust thing. I think, you know, just from being part of your Facebook group, there are some amazing people on there doing really cool things and being scared but jumping anyway. Or, you know what, before they jump reaching out and going somebody hold my hand because I'm about to jump and I think just not isolating yourself creating in a vacuum sucks. I'm getting that getting your tribe getting that group, even if that group is one person, even if it's one person on the other side of the world that you can reach out to on Facebook that you've got, you know, you and I were messaging long before we actually met. have that person that you can, you know, reach out to and then trust. Trust that you're smart that you're going to figure it out. And you know what I always say to you, it's like I've I've quit design, and I'm jealous curator is my full time gig. Well you know what if the mortgage isn't about to be paid, I can pick up a design job. You know, it's like, just because I jumped It doesn't mean that like I'm done. It's just like, you know, I'm smart. If I need cash, I will go get it. And there's no shame. It's not like I failed. It's not like, oh, that tells Curie didn't work. It's like, Well, no, we had a bill to pay, and I paid it. Moving on, you know, and I think that there's a lot of pressure that when you don't, you know, it's not it, you can keep hustling people. Well, you know, all the things that I that you do, that you aren't getting paid for, or whatever, like the podcast, I, when I started my podcast, it's like I, you know, was just doing it because I thought it was cool. And I wanted to talk to these artists. Well, because of that, my new book has been turned into an audio book on audible.com picked it up, and I got to go and record it. So you can actually hear me read you the book if you want. And I got paid for that. So you know, you do this stuff for free that you just genuinely want to do because you think it's fun and exciting. And you trust. And very often very weirdly, suddenly, you get paying opportunities that came, you know, if audible hadn't heard me doing the podcast, you know, they might have picked it up. But they would have hired voice talent. But they liked my voice. And they said, Yeah, do it. And so I think you just have to do the things you love with authentic authenticity. And then the other things will come if you're listening and watching for them. The End, that's all,

Kathleen Shannon 56:22
no, but I'm going to add on to that. I have actually thought about this with my creative friendships. Like, I think about even you, Danielle, we were friends before I had any sort of name or podcast or even business, I don't even think I'd started breed creative yet. No. And same with Emily. And a lot of my creative friends that I made whenever I was really young, in my career are still my great friends. And it's been so fun to support each other and see the tie, you know, see the boats rise together as the tide rises, like we're all rising together. And I think that I'm seeing a lot of people chasing the money, and they're chasing after the person that can do something for them. And I think that if you chase your dream, and you chase those authentic, meaningful friendships, that it's all going to lead to somewhere like who knew that I would ever be interviewing you on my podcast? That's the fun kind of almost sliding doors. If you've ever seen that. Yes. So who are you never know where one thing is going to lead to and how it's going to lead to something else. So on that theme of trust, just trusting that if you're doing your best, and you're working from your best intentions, that you never have to really doubt what it is that you're doing. Absolutely.

Danielle Krysa 57:47
No, amen. V and lid on it.

Kathleen Shannon 57:52
Okay, but first of all, can our listeners find the book? How they buy it? How would you prefer them to buy it? Do you want them to give you an Amazon rating and review?

Emily Thompson 58:03
Did her your credit card? No, yeah,

Danielle Krysa 58:04
that's a just send cash to my house.

Unknown Speaker 58:07
Put it in an envelope.

Danielle Krysa 58:10
Well, it's everywhere, which is amazing. So it's, um, you know, Amazon, and on Chronicle site and Barnes and Noble and chapters in Canada and Australia, it's everywhere. You can buy it however you like, I just be happy if you bought it. And then it's illustrated by Martha rich, who's one of my favorite artists in the world. I'm so happy, we got to do this together. And so you're gonna want that because you want all of her paintings that are in it. But then the audio book is so cool, too. So you kind of need to buy both. Of course. They're not very expensive. The book is only let's see 1695 us. And then I think the audio book is like 695.

Kathleen Shannon 58:50
And then what about the podcast? It's under the same name jealous?

Danielle Krysa 58:53
You know, it's called art for your ear. And it's on iTunes.

Kathleen Shannon 58:57
Perfect. And then oh, I did have one last question. All right, go ahead. I'm so sorry. I'm just curious about blogging versus podcasting. And where you're at with, like, the landscape of blogging has changed a little bit, right?

Danielle Krysa 59:11
Yes, it has. I always picture my, like, my, my views on my actual site have gone way, way down. But I have 255,000 followers on Facebook, and over 100,000 now on Instagram and blog gets over the podcast gets insane downloads now. So but I always see my blog as the cornerstone kind of, it's sort of like the, you know, the home base, even if a lot of people don't show up there, like I've had people on Facebook are like, Oh, you have a site because they think I'm just a faceless Facebook. Just think of a Facebook thing or, or you know, I have people who have been listening to the podcast and they're like, Oh, wait, you have a site because I always do a big post with each podcast so that you can see the art that we're talking about. It's really weird to talk about visual things and then not see them. So I have that when people have the time don't know, I don't think, well, don't quote me on this, but I don't think my blog will go away. I think it'll be stay the cornerstone, and then everything sort of goes out from there. Who knows, in a year, two years, five years, but that's the plan right now.

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:20
Thanks so much for joining us, Daniel. It's so good to see you and catch up.

Danielle Krysa 1:00:24
Yeah, thank you guys so much. It's always so fun. And I was looking forward to it so much. It's where I couldn't wait to chat with you guys. Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 1:00:32
So what's the secret to being boss? The secret is that there is no secret. There is no single formula course or book that will teach you what you need to know in order to have anything and everything you want.

Emily Thompson 1:00:45
But here's what we've learned along the way. Being boss is setting up a solid foundation and built on intention. It's understanding how to define success on your terms. It's committing to big ass goals. And it's breaking those big ass goals down into small actionable steps.

Kathleen Shannon 1:01:05
It's about making faster decisions, trusting yourself to see it through enjoying the process along the way, knowing how to measure what's working and what isn't. And surrounding yourself with smart, ambitious friends along the way. Those are the secrets to how bosses get what they want.

Emily Thompson 1:01:23
We know you want an online business that allows you to make money doing what you love, and boss we've got you. The beam boss clubhouse is where we teach you how to be boss of your life and work.

Kathleen Shannon 1:01:35
The being boss clubhouse is a two day online real time retreat, followed by 12 months of ongoing community support, monthly master classes and secret podcast episodes. We're only accepting 25 members for our next online retreat. Learn more and apply to join at being boss club slash clubhouse. Thank you for listening to being boss. Please be sure to visit our website at being boss club where you can find Show Notes for this episode. Listen to past episodes and discover more of our content that will help you be boss in work and life. Did you like this episode,

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Emily Thompson 1:02:15
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