Dealing with Bullies in Business

Emily Thompson 0:01
Hello and welcome to being boss episode number 99. This episode is brought to you by fresh books, cloud accounting.

Being boss and work and life is being in it,

Kathleen Shannon 0:17
it's being who we are doing the work, breaking some rules. And even though we each have to do it on our own,

Emily Thompson 0:24
being boss is knowing we're in it together.

Kathleen Shannon 0:28
So today we're recording this episode in a live hangout with some of our listeners. We're following up on the episode that we recorded with jasmine star, where we touched on the topic of authenticity and haters. And we really want to deep dive on this topic of criticism, both real and perceived, and talk about how we continue to show up as we are in our businesses. In spite of the feedback we receive. We're going to share our experiences and insights and answers and questions from our live audience here toward the end. Be sure to go and download that episode number 93, which is Jasmine star on authenticity and haters if you haven't listened to it yet. The nature of work is changing the Internet has enabled more people to become self employed professionals and small business owners. I remember just six years ago, whenever I started working for myself, I thought that maybe people thought I just couldn't get a real job. But that is no longer true. Today, one in three Americans is self employed, and it's only growing. However, the world is not built to support the self employed. institutions like banks, retirement savings, employment insurance, accounting services, they really need to adapt or be replaced. And this is why I love fresh books, cloud accounting. They have been with me since the beginning. I started freelancing six years ago, and immediately was started using fresh books and have been using them ever since. And they continue to innovate their platform to accommodate the needs of creative entrepreneurs. And you guys, it's so easy and intuitive. So if you're needing to update your accounting system or need something that works better for you, be sure to check out freshbooks Just go to freshbooks comm slash being boss and enter being boss in the How did you hear about us section so you can try it for free? So let's dig in. Emily? Yes, ma'am. curious to hear if you have dealt with haters before and we were asking our live audience, some of them have totally dealt with haters, whether it's our own inner critic, family members, online trolls. I'm curious in your life. When have you dealt with haters?

Emily Thompson 2:49
Um, I did a lot in high school. I was always the girl that was really hardcore. Hey, look at this face. No, but really, it was more like all of my friends were dudes. And so I was always the girl who like all the other girls like hated on because I was friends with all their boyfriends basically. Um, but that was fun to deal with.

Kathleen Shannon 3:14
Were you making out with their boyfriend? No. I didn't. Yeah,

Emily Thompson 3:19
I never made out with boyfriends. Um, but like, as I've gotten older, it's been more like unintentional haters like people who just who just don't know how to respond in kind ways. Whenever I tell them what it is that I do. Like they're just unsure and it comes off a little hateful sometimes. So sometimes it causes me to, like, need to explain what I do a little bit more or just not care. We get we get some like, I don't know. And again, I don't really, I can't really call this definitely hater talk, because they're not so much hating, as just not understanding, like our family dynamics. Look at the fact that David and I are not married is a big thing here in the south. Or the fact that we work from home like then we must be like total lazy people or something. So we get a lot of we get a lot of misunderstanding, I think in our life that can come off a little bit hateful from people who don't know how to deal with themselves very well. So that's really the worst I get these days. I'm really lucky in that either, either. I'm completely unaware of my haters, in which case I like it that way. Or maybe I just don't have any like legit haters, which I also will like it that way as well. Um, what about you though, you've had some like,

Kathleen Shannon 4:41
I have, I have attracted a little bit of like online trolling. Right before I get into that. I kind of want to talk a little bit about what you said about being misunderstood, or someone kind of being afraid of what it is that you're doing. And ever since I was really young, I got bullied a little bit too, and my mom would always tell me, Kathleen is just because they're afraid of you or they don't understand you, you are wearing different clothes from all of your friends. I really like dressing like I was from the 70s.

Emily Thompson 5:16
I've heard stories about this jumper scenario.

Kathleen Shannon 5:19
Oh yeah, whenever I was in the second grade, I wore like a Military Air Force,

Emily Thompson 5:27
a bird,

Kathleen Shannon 5:29
like a flight suit that I found at a goodwill. So that was confusing for a lot of people because it wasn't like it was Halloween, it was like a Tuesday afternoon and I'm wearing this jumper to school. But um, I've always dressed a little bit different. And so that definitely attracted a fair share of bullies. And I feel like whenever I was a kid, there wasn't this whole campaign against bullying, like bullying was par for the course. And if you were being bullied, you just kind of had to deal with it. I didn't get a whole lot of sympathy from my teachers and even my parents in a lot of ways. But I think that what it did is it made me very resilient. And it helps me understand what I was going to fight for from a very young age. So showing up as I am, and being a little bit weird has never been a problem for me. But people's reactions have been a problem. And as much of a nonconformist as I like to think I am, I'm also kind of a people pleaser. And I truly want everyone to like me, I can't help it. And I was writing an article earlier this week. And I know that it's really cool to give zero fucks about what people think. But sometimes I feel like I give all the fog

Emily Thompson 6:48
you give more folks than most people a lot of times I think it will. And it's it's something that I think whenever you have to deal with it even more, it may it's gonna go one of two ways. Like either you're going to really learn not to care or it will continue to bother you. And I think that that's something that a lot of people find themselves in and where whenever you're just sort of like hit on not like fun head on, but not fun head on, like over and over again, you end up developing more fucks to give than most people should

Kathleen Shannon 7:25
write. So I will talk about my coping mechanisms that I've had to develop much more as an adult dealing with online bullying, versus the coping mechanisms that I dealt with as a kid whenever it was purely just playground bullying. I remember one time, I just feel like I need to share this because now whenever I'm dealing with haters, or even criticism, from a grown up perspective, I always come back to that like little kid in me. And sometimes I feel like I'm almost defending that little kid. I mean, you have an eight year old daughter, and that's probably about the time that the bullying really started for me. And I remember one time I was sitting on the playground, we had this thing called the berm, which was like the the elementary school was kind of underground,

Emily Thompson 8:12
like the name of some like elementary school horror film.

Kathleen Shannon 8:18
So it was partially underground. And there was this kind of grassy knoll that went up onto the building. And I was just sitting on that cross legged, minding my own business being my own little lunar self, and this kid came up to me and he goes, are you masturbating? And then he spit on me. And at the time, I was like, I don't even know what that means. But now as a grown adult, I can see that poor child but bully me like what was going on in his home. Right that he felt the need to talk to another classmate, pier girl that way, right? Totally horrible. So now I will say I think that that kid was scared. He misunderstood. He was probably misunderstood. He misunderstood me. And either way being exposed to I know poor kid, I mean, it really does break my heart. But um, but now as a grown up, I try and like muster up that compassion for myself and then for that other kid, whenever dealing with bullies now, and that oftentimes, it just is coming from a place of fear, and misunderstanding and insecurity. And, you know, this is kind of a question that I had whenever thinking about this chat that we were going to have about bullies and haters and authenticity. How much is it our responsibility to understand the motives of bullies? So every time I tell someone about a hateful comment, they might be like, oh, they're just jealous or Oh, They don't have this or they, they're like this, like, we always go to this place of wanting to understand or even visualize them on their computer in their mother's basement. You know, we want to paint this like really terrible picture of our haters. But how much of that is even our responsibility? Because as creatives our responsibility is just to show up and do the work, and let it go after that, my job, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not here to defend my work. I'm just here to make it.

Emily Thompson 10:32
Right. Yes, absolutely. Yes. And I think, I think we can expend so much energy thinking and worrying and like, and I do it, I totally do it or like, think about like, I've had plenty of like, clients who I felt were kind of bullies. Or, or even like working in, like in the workplace, like, before I started working for myself, like having to deal with people who just like, like power trips, like fuck those guys. Or people who just can't deal with their own emotions or can't deal with what's going on in their life in a healthy way and have to expend that energy out onto other people. I think that that, obviously, there is a lot of things going on in their lives. And like, Is it our job, but to break that apart? And then feel sorry for them? I mean, I think on some level, yes. Like, we should be compassionate for everyone. I think that's, that's how we heal all of the things. But I don't think it's our job to really break it down, it's just to move on is to make the things and continue making the things and move on and hope the very best for all of them.

Kathleen Shannon 11:44
So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk about moving on. Because I have had to develop some coping techniques and tactics, and mindsets, not only to get over real bullies, who are saying hateful things, but also my own inner critic. And that often shows up as perfectionism or scarcity mindset. So crying into your pillow.

Emily Thompson 12:09
I have those days, too.

Kathleen Shannon 12:18
All right. So some of the things that I've done to deal is the first resource I want to mention is Don Miguel Ruiz has the Four Agreements, there's a chapter in there about not taking anything personal. And it changed the way I approach everything, not even haters, but even praise, and even my interpersonal relationships. Like, if you're having a bad day, and you're short with me, in a project that we're going through, it's so easy to be like, oh, what did I do wrong, or I need to step it up, when in fact, you might just be having a really terrible day, you may not have gotten enough sleep, you might feel scattered and spread thin. And that's going to come out in our interaction, but it has nothing to do with me. Other than, like, I want to help you or you know, whatever it might look like. So that's my biggest thing is not taking it personal. And I feel like Emily, you're really good at not taking things personal. So I'd love to hear more from you on that. Yeah,

Emily Thompson 13:20
I am really good at not taking it personally. And like I do, sometimes it's not to say that I'm completely completely, like, absent of that ability. But But I have somehow cultivated in myself over the years, the ability to sort of removed myself from, from a lot of that in which like, that may be part of my like perception of I don't have haters, and that like I do, I'm just not fucking listening to you, I do not have time for that shit. Because I think anyone anyone has the right to formulate whatever opinion they want of absolutely anything that is your right as a brain having human being. But it's also my right to completely not listen to it. So um, so I don't know how I've cultivated that I have no idea. But I do not take very much very personally, it takes a whole lot to offend me. And it's probably going to be less about me and more about my child or my dog, like those things would have been me more so than saying anything about myself. Um, so yeah, I think if you can, it's all just a practice. Like, if you can practice just not giving a shit, then it's going to be easier and easier for you to not give a shit. And I think I think there are some things you can do around that I always think about Marie Forleo and how she supposedly and I don't obviously have proof but how she doesn't read any of her feedback, like she has her people read feedback, and then anything constructive, like anything is actually worthwhile because very little of it is is what gets taken to her as part of like the feedback that needs to be paid attention to. And I think that like by putting your blinders on in that way in whatever way you can. Whether it's having someone else, filter it for you, or just like having an inbox, like an email address that you have like feedback go to that you don't even look at, because it doesn't matter. Like that's also an okay thing to do. So putting on blinders in that way, I think makes it easier for you, if you don't have the ability to really not care. I'm doing little things like that to help you not even see it, I think is a helpful way to cope.

Kathleen Shannon 15:32
Something I've been trying recently is letting go have my need to be right.

Emily Thompson 15:38
So watch this in practice. I'm just kidding. actually really want to talk to David about this, though?

Unknown Speaker 15:47
Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 15:49
Hang on, my computer's starting to whirl up. So I'm gonna give it a few seconds so that our sound engineer can?

Emily Thompson 15:56
Well, in that case, I want to go over to the comments. So Kirby, you saying that teachers are being bullies like that shit sucks, I can. And I think most of us can think of one time or another one and adult was the perpetrator and not even appear, which I think is just nonsense. But also, like part of us all just need to let it go and be nice people because like we're affecting everyone, we're around. And then Nikki also says we she just got your inner critic as a big jerk. And we've already talked to Danielle chrissa. That episode is coming out in a few weeks. So keep a lookout.

Kathleen Shannon 16:35
And our very first episode that we did with Danielle Chris says she talks about a professor telling her that her artwork was garbage. And how many of us have had that really harsh professor in college tell us that we're no good. And I think that that's happened to anybody who's making anything at some point is going to be told that their stuff is no good. And so I want to come back around to this idea of letting go of the need to be right. So recently, I was thinking, What if I was just cool with people not liking me. And I know I say that all the time, especially whenever it comes to branding. It's your job to attract the people that you want to work with and repel the people that you don't want to work with. But it's still a little tricky, right? Whenever you feel like someone doesn't like you out of fear or scarcity or misunderstanding. But whenever I can just think, okay, yeah, you don't like that I'm a little woowoo. Or you don't like that maybe I dropped the F bomb every once in a while. Or maybe I said a word that doesn't resonate with you and you don't like me for it?

Unknown Speaker 17:49
Bah. That's what I've got to say.

Emily Thompson 17:53
So I want to talk about one of the ways Nicole down here asked a really great question. When she says it is hard to give less fucks? Sure. So my question is, when they go high or low, how do we go? Hi, I love the Michelle Obama reference, I am feisty and my inclination is to go snark tastic on them. So I have to share with you something that I do, because like, I absolutely lose my goal sometimes. And what I will actually do in these scenarios is I will sit down and write an email, just and say everything that I have to say, and I might send it to someone like someone on my team or I might send it to David, I will let someone else read it. And then I'll delete it. I have found that that is the best way that I have to working out working through all the feelings that I have and saying all of the nasty ass things that I want to say. And then deleting it so that no one ever has to see it. And it always makes me feel better. Like then I can go about my life. And I haven't like done anything horribly embarrassing either.

Kathleen Shannon 19:05
Oh, I like that. I think that whenever others are going low, the way that I go high is by making something. So I like to think of haters as people who are energy draining. And not only energy draining, but destructive. And the only way I can combat that darkness and that negativity is by being positive and productive. And the literally creating something. So someone might be criticizing my podcast, but I'm just gonna go make another podcast. It's all I can do as a creative. I mean in my bones I'm built to make things and I think that making things is the best way that I can combat any negativity. Whenever I'm physically making something or writing something or designing something, I don't have time. To think about negativity, or hate. And another thing was, you guys are seeing the flubs and all you're seeing us think I'm so Oh, something I did recently I was getting a, I was seeing a lot of negativity, not negativity, it's not negative. It's anger. And I'm seeing a lot of anger on my Facebook feed. And it's like minded anger. It's anger that I completely agree with. But the anger itself to me is starting to feel poisonous in my own bones. So I am really learning from my own hate. So right now to be completely transparent, this Donald Trump thing, and we're not gonna get too political, but it is eating me up. It's keeping me awake at night, and it's making me really super angry. And it would be really easy for me to go on my own Facebook feed or even on a podcast and talk about how angry I am. But for me, it always what's that phrase? I think it's Maya Angelou that says it. It's like, whenever you're hating on someone, it's it's like taking your it's like poisoning yourself. I'm getting I'm butchering this, if anyone knows that quote, about like, it's like trying to, you're trying to kill someone else by swallowing your own poison. Anyway. Yeah. So I feel like this anger is me poisoning myself, right. So recently, I got in our Facebook group for being boss. And I said, Hey, bosses, and this group is now over 16,000 people and growing. And I said, I'm seeing a lot of anger, and rightly so in my Facebook feed. For me, it takes more courage to be positive, and to be enthusiastic about the things that I love, rather than being cynical or critical of the things that I hate. For me, it's easy to be angry, it's easy to be cynical. And so for me, the brave thing is to be positive. So I kind of created this positivity thread. And even in that thread, I was misunderstood. And people were saying that the brave thing is to be angry and to speak out about it. And I know for a lot of people that is, but for me, that doesn't feel brave. For me, that's like my default. Anyway. And so so for me, just kind of focusing on what I love is a really great way to cope with hate and to understand that like my hate for the current political landscape, for example, really, what is that bringing up in me? It's bringing up fear, I'm afraid. And so if I'm not afraid, how am I behaving instead? Yeah,

Emily Thompson 22:53
so Okay, we all have that, quote, I actually have two quotes. So Liz, shared one holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else. You are the one who gets burned from Buddha. And another one, and this is the one that you are referencing, I think holding on to anger is like poisoning yourself and hoping someone else will die. So thanks for that. Sharon.

Kathleen Shannon 23:16
Also, thank you Buddha, I think I need to just hang out with Buddha a little bit more

Emily Thompson 23:22
well, and I love what you said a minute ago about how like, the easy thing to do is to post something angry on Facebook, like that is the easiest thing to do. I think that like that's going low, doing the easy thing is going low. If you want to go high, you do the hard thing, and it's being courageous, and it's making a positive change. And it's doing the work despite what everyone else is saying or doing whether to you or in some landscape out there somewhere. Because whenever whenever I'm feeling whenever I'm feeling down, either because we've gotten an email because someone doesn't like a word that we've used, or if we've gotten, you know, any sort of negative feedback that I'm not agreeing with or that I don't see as being constructive, because there's a difference between receiving just negative feedback and receiving constructive feedback. Like, I'll take constructive feedback all day. But if you just have some negative shit to say, keep it to yourself. But for me, it is about doing the work. And for us it is creative things. Because you have to know that what you're doing is it has a positive impact or else you wouldn't be doing it like this would not be your life's purpose. If you didn't understand that you were doing some good in the world. So I think by by doing the work and knowing the positive impact you're having, whether it's just on yourself, or anyone else around you, and paying attention to that, like being able to measure it in some way. You know, I'm all about like tracking shit. But being able to measure your impact and having that proof for yourself so that whenever you are feeling down and out because someone's being an asshat to you, you can look back and say no like Here is my proof that what I am doing is really right. And I think that by having that to go back on, or even like surrounding yourself with people who also see it and will tell you that if you need that extra support can be everything if you do have some issues, either with some sincere haters or the inability to like cope with it easily yourself.

Kathleen Shannon 25:26
Okay, we've got one more question on haters, and then I want to move on to authenticity and honesty. And that's the stuff that really gets me excited and loving what I do. Okay, so Deseret says, I haven't had any haters yet that I know of. But I'm not going to go digging. But I have been blogging for five years. And so I know for a fact it will happen. I'm wondering how much should you listen to the feedback? Should you just toss it out the window or look at it and use it to better your business? Do you to ever use it to your advantage to change your approach? So I first discovered some blog haters. When I was on vacation in Vienna, I was in a beautiful location. And this is probably I don't know, three or four years ago. And I was looking at my blogging analytics. And notice I had a huge spike,

Emily Thompson 26:22
which is always a bad thing, period. If you're on vacation in Vienna, and you're looking at your website analytics, like

Kathleen Shannon 26:31
this is why I quit

Unknown Speaker 26:32
analytic continue.

Kathleen Shannon 26:34
True story. So I was looking at my I just noticed an uptick. It was kind of like a random, maybe I was checking in on things. And I noticed this huge spike in traffic. And then I noticed that the source was a website that is notorious for hating on bloggers. And there was an entire forum and thread on why people didn't like me. And I started to read it. And I literally felt sick to my stomach. I felt so misunderstood and just scared. Like, I wonder if even on a primal biological level, whenever we read criticism, or hate, like in our lizard brain, it feels like a threat to our life. Right. And for me, it just, I mean, obviously, it's not a threat to my life, but I got that I can even feel it in my stomach. Now just talking about it, that feeling of just gross, I could not believe that this was happening. And there were a few ways that I coped with it then, and but ultimately, it came down to my husband telling me, we're in Viana, and you're upset about someone who's jealous of you, or doesn't like what you have to say, like, get get over it. But the thing is, is that it takes time to get over that. And it takes time to develop a thick skin about that sort of thing. But for me really relying on my creative wolf pack and my inner circle, I was able to get over it. You know, I remember at the time my brother sent me this quote, why am I bringing up all these quotes that I don't actually have pulled up. But someone said that if you say nothing, do nothing, you know, and you are nothing that you won't get any negative feedback. But if you're doing something, someone's going to have something to say about it. So in some way

Emily Thompson 28:24
m&ms and something like that.

Kathleen Shannon 28:30
You only get one shot.

Unknown Speaker 28:33
So

Kathleen Shannon 28:35
so it was it was really helpful just at that time to really rely on my creative Wolf Pack. These days, I don't really rely on my creative wolf pack so much. But I also don't take the toxic feedback and in no way affects how I go about my business. It just can't. Um, I do have a friend that runs a pretty popular blog. And every so often, she'll get on the hater website and read some feedback. And some people will say, Oh, you know, this really did make me rethink that topic. And I'm actually glad that this criticism came about because it helped me change something for the better. But I call bullshit on that. I don't I think that this website is so toxic and hateful, if I have definitely received criticism, but it has been from bosses that I trust, or our audience that is actually engaged with our content. And I will absolutely take that like Deseret, I'm answering your question right now. And if you came to me one day and said hey, you said this thing about motherhood and it really resonated with me funny and I was wondering if you could offer up a different perspective by maybe bringing on a guest that is a single mom or you know, it could be anything, that kind of feedback. Yes, I will take it and I will run with it and I will listen to it and I will change course to Serve my audience that's already here. But I'm not out to serve haters

Emily Thompson 30:04
not happened and and even then, like, even if one of our dearest readers were to have an issue with something that we say, would we like just essentially make that then my Yes, we're absolutely going to change the thing like, we absolutely have our own filter of values and like ideals that we run everything through. And yes, like toxic shit by like, if you are not going to be constructive, I don't care if you are not like part of my inner circle or like, just on the outside of it then like, I'm just not going to make time for that. But if it is, like a well thought good hearted, a constructive way of sharing feedback or, and to have like good intention behind it. Absolutely. But sites like that, like there's no good intention behind any of that shit. So I'd say I'd call bullshit on that as well. But I think it is going back to like, in this is a great segue bt dubs into like authenticity, it's knowing who you are and what you stand for, that allows you to filter through the nonsense that anyone would ever have to say about you that's in any negative light or even positive, like taking positive feedback is even filtered through the own set of values and ideals that you hold true for yourself.

Kathleen Shannon 31:23
Yes, absolutely. So Liz, in our comments in our live hangout here said, you have to actually be in the arena. And this comes from Dr. Bernie Browns work. So if you have read, Daring Greatly, you know that it's all about showing up and being seen. And that's you in the arena. And in the arena, there are the cheap seats. And there are people that are on the ground with you doing the work as well. And we are always far more likely to respect the opinions of people who are also doing the work than people who are shouting at us or heckling at us from the cheap seats. So another thing that Renee brown wrote his the book rising strong. And in that book, she talks about what you do whenever you are faced down in the dirt in the arena. And so both of those are really great reads. If you are ever kind of scared of showing up and being seen or dealing with haters, check out those books for sure. Okay, so I agree with everything that you said Emily about this idea of authenticity and being secure in who you are. And I know that anytime feedback really gets under my skin, it's whenever it's poking out something that my own inner critic is telling me is true. And so here Arlene mentions, haters suck. Arlene agrees with what Jasmine said in Episode Number 93 that haters are awful. Yes. But the inner critic is the toughest and I totally agree with this. So anytime a hater says something, but it's just ridiculous. I've used this grass is green, or grasses pink metaphor before it's like if a hater came up to me and was like, Hey, your grass is pink. I would be like, Okay, well, I see a crazy person. But if they were like, your grass is brown, and it's dying, and maybe my grass really is green, but there's a patch that's Brown, I'm gonna see that brown patch. I'm like, Oh my god, you're right, it's dying, it's gonna freak me out a little bit, because part of it is true. And or part of it is something that I've been questioning myself. So um, something that used to bother me back in the day was if people would mention that maybe I was exploiting my kid. And that I was using my kid in like a marketing way. I would think joined

Emily Thompson 33:58
by God after baby bump. I know.

Kathleen Shannon 34:01
Well, in

Emily Thompson 34:03
real life,

Kathleen Shannon 34:05
I was taking a bunch of photos of my baby bump and I thought it Am I using this as an accessory. Is this a trendy thing? And then having a kid is like never anything I would ever do for marketing purposes. So now that's turned into like a grasses pink situation like, Okay, this is the last thing I would do to boost my stats is like have a baby because this is the hardest shit I've ever done. And so there's definitely like those grasses, pink situations that are easy to brush off, but they're the things that really touch up my sore spots where I'm like, Ah, right. And I can even happen internally like on our own internal team where there's no hate at all going on, but it's like, Hey, you still haven't gotten me that thing that's do is like Oh, really.

No

Emily Thompson 34:57
critic needs to shush him in it and And so let's let's move on to like some hardcore. Actually, before we go on to authenticity. One thing I want to say like, I wanted to touch on the like, when they go low, we go high stuff, in terms of like, whenever I am dealing with shit, and whether it's just in my life or business or whatever, like, the whole, kill them with kindness, like I'm just gonna smile at you give you a cute little wave and walk away and see how things are. Because I think that whenever you can either ignore things or just like or just be as kind and open as possible. I don't know, taking people by surprise. And that way, if people are being mean to you, they are trying to get a rise out of you. And if you don't to give them the thing that I that they want, it will end or they'll just keep wasting their damn breath. Or one of my other favorite little tactics is just being unabashedly and unapologetically boss as fuck, and giving them even more things to be jealous about. Because then I can look around at my life, see what it is that I've created and what it is that I'm doing and not feel sorry for it at all.

Kathleen Shannon 36:09
I love that so much. I've mentioned this before the bumper sticker that changed my life. And I feel like it came to me by divine. By the grace of God, God sent me this bumper sticker. So I was driving and feeling particularly hurt by some unwarranted feedback. And I read a bumper sticker that said, Have you ever met a hater doing better than you. And again, I think that that puts a little too much attention on why this hater sucks compared to you. And that's not what I'm trying to do at all. But it does remind you

Emily Thompson 36:43
to tell yourself to get past it, like I won't blame you.

Kathleen Shannon 36:49
And so that's kind of one of my tactics, is looking at the people that I really admire, and looking at how they deal with it, they don't even have time to deal with it. And that's what I aspire to be I aspire to be someone who is so busy making good things, knowing my impact, and doing the work that I don't even have time to acknowledge or address or entertain the idea of responding to a hater. Agreed.

Emily Thompson 37:18
All right now legit. Let's talk about authenticity, because I'm super excited about this as well.

Kathleen Shannon 37:23
Okay, so I want to start by saying that I know that the word authentic is getting a lot of such a word these days, it's totally a buzzword, but I'm glad it's because one is a good one. And if you for me, authenticity means being who you are 100% of the time, and to really dig down. And this is something I think about all the time, especially with personal branding, being one of the things I get most excited about. I think that authenticity is aligning your intentions and thoughts with your actions and words. And so I think that we create this kind of boundary around what authenticity means. That keeps us from evolving or changing our mind or even reacting to the context of a situation. But I don't necessarily think that being authentic is talking to your grandma, like you would talk to your best friend, right? There is context for everything or talking to your client. Like you would talk to your husband. It's totally a context matters for sure. But what are your intentions and thoughts in the moment. So for me, a really awesome like I remember one of the first times I really was able to harness authenticity was whenever I was in a meeting, and I still worked a day job and I hated whatever

Emily Thompson 38:46
your it was whenever you were wearing that jumpsuit, and the second grade is actually think when it was but continue.

Kathleen Shannon 38:54
But you know, what's funny is that wearing that jumpsuit didn't take a lot of courage. And for me, this moment of courage and authenticity that I will never forget was being in a meeting where someone use the word ROI. And I had never heard that before. And I could have just nodded along and pretended like I knew what they were talking about. I like that. But in I found the courage to ask what it meant. And that is one of the times I felt the most authentic was I was curious about what something meant. And I was admitting that I didn't know. So that moment felt really authentic to me. I know it seems really tiny. But what I'm trying to say is that authenticity can show up in really small ways. So okay, Emily, what about you like what do you think about authenticity and how would you kind of define it? Yeah,

Emily Thompson 39:48
I'm right there with you in terms of like intentions and thoughts and really turning those into action whenever I think about like how you can be authentic. For me, if for me it just always comes back to mindfulness, which also brings me to the fact that like, I think being boss has put me on a spiritual path of mindfulness.

Right, like I feel, who knew that

starting a podcast would make me a better person. But it mean, I think about like sitting down and journaling, like, what is going on in my mind right now? What is it that I want? Who do I want to be? And what kind of person do I want my daughter to see? And what do I stand for? I think that whenever you can, like, really get in touch with what those things are for you. And you do that by being really mindful, in turning those into intentions that do direct all of the actions that you take, that's when you're being authentic. And, and I really want to point out this, like mindfulness for your sake, and not, not holding true to what other people expect of you, or even what tradition would expect of you. I think that whenever you can liberate yourself from those things, and like really get in touch with what you want for your sake, that's when you are being truly authentic. Like if you're doing a job because your parents told you you had to be or, or like, or your religion or your politics, like and you're just following the traditions or your husband or wife or your children, like, if you're holding anyone else's expectations for you as quote unquote, true for yourself, they're not actually true for yourself, unless you dive deep and find that what you do believe yourself coincides with that, then you're not being authentic. So I think that by like, going deep, I mean, get yourself a good deck of Oracle cards, honey, and like, do some journaling to find out who it is that you are like, that's whenever you can start taking the action that makes you like an authentic person.

Kathleen Shannon 41:54
I amen to everything that you just said. And what I'm really hearing you say is really getting curious and questioning everything. Yeah, this has happened to me so much on my path to being an authentic parent. I was looking at the way that my mom raised me, which is amazing. But she she was a working mom, but all but a stay at home mom like a practically a stay at home mom, she, she I'm not going to say that she sacrificed who she was to be a mother, because she was just authentically a mom. That's all she wanted in her life. And so I as a mom thought that that's all I should want in my life. But that's not the case at all. So I'm having to go down this line of inquiry whenever it comes to the kind of mom that I want to be. And really asking myself a lot of questions and trying a lot of different things to be the most authentic parent I can be. So that's just one example. But I found and I'm curious to hear from you, Emily on this as well, that I think that a lot of people have a hard time breaking from the traditions and norms that have been set up by our families and by society. But because I've always been bucking the norm, I have found myself kind of getting trapped in these rules like these countercultural rules of what I should be and who I should be. So it's still conforming to

Emily Thompson 43:26
a non conformance that looks like all the other non conformance 100%

Kathleen Shannon 43:32
That's exactly right. Right. Well, so and so then it's like, what rules Am I breaking? Or what rules have I adopted without really realizing it? And I think that's what happens. whenever it comes to authenticity. And if you're not feeling authentic, it's that maybe you've brought some rules into your life that you aren't even aware that you are following.

Emily Thompson 43:55
Yeah, Deaf Oh, God, well, and that just comes with like that constant like inner inquiry of like, you know, why do I do this thing? Or why am I believing this thing and like I grew up in, like, you know, middle class low middle class families, super religious, I went to church three times a week, like want to talk about like, needing to do some like, and brainwashing and a lot of ways. And for me, it was always taking myself out of the context of where I currently was, whenever I think about the biggest shifts in my life in terms of in terms of like becoming more and more who I am. It's whenever I traveled is whenever I like, saw other pieces of the world and saw how things could happen in other places or with other people or under different belief systems, or whatever it was, it was whenever I took myself out of my bubble and into other places and experience new things that I found extra parts of myself or became really aware of the cycles that I was running that was just like me not thinking but doing it. And, and so yeah, I think I think that whenever you're being still, whenever you were just doing the work, and you're not having that constant inquiry or you're not leaving your bubble to see what else is happening, or what things you have applied to yourself without even realizing it, then you are going to get into, you know, other people's rules, or other people's boundaries for working or being or expectations. But whenever you can continually move forward in that way. I think it becomes easier just continually, like, step it up with like, and with discovering who it is that you are, I think, I don't know, life is a motherfucking journey guys. Like you can either you can either, like, stay where you are, and just ride the wave, or you can go after it. And for me, like I think being boss, and doing what it is that we do and what we want to do. Like I'm not okay with just sitting here and having other people's expectations and rules, like layered on top of me like a bunch of stifling blankets, like I'd rather throw them off, go wander the world, do things that I love, create things and find out who I am every step of the way. And sure that means like Kathleen here someday you'll have dreads and the next day, you'll have a cute Pixie, but like you're becoming who you are every single day. And that's way cooler than like stagnating. And who you think you are now and who you will be forever? Or who someone else thinks you should be?

Kathleen Shannon 46:35
yes to all of that

Emily Thompson 46:38
I aged today, guys. This, this, I feel is something that I have been so passionate about lately, whenever I look at the people who are around me, like the people that are closest to me, like I've got it like look at you, Kathleen, like doing your shit. And me and my little family and the people that we like, hold closest to us for sure. But like, again, every time I step out of my bubble, I'm blown away by the rest of the world. And not that I'm doing it all right, because I absolutely know that I am not. But it does make me really passionate about me about wanting people to live their life live their life on their terms, not on anyone elses.

Kathleen Shannon 47:26
Yeah, I think that that evolution piece is huge for me whenever it comes to authenticity. And I think that's what I started kind of trying to touch on whenever I was mentioning these rules that we create for ourselves. And to just use a very superficial example of my hair, it is always changing. Literally, yesterday, I was walking through the grocery store and saw a client that I worked with face to face in person, no less than two years ago, and there was no recognition, no recognition. So I'm always changing. And that has, it's always brought about a level of discomfort in me, I wondered if I was unreliable or unstable in that I'm changing my mind and changing direction and changing the way that I look so often. But now I'm really seeing that as a strength. And the thing that you can rely on is that I'm always going to change. But giving myself permission to change has not been easy. And so I I've mentioned it barely before that I've been divorced. And I think that a big reason is that I got married really young I was I just turned 21. And I got married to a really great guy. But what I didn't realize I was doing was boxing myself in to being who I was at 21 forever. And not by fault, not by his it wasn't his fault. And it wasn't my it was nobody's fault. It was like a super just what most people would refer to as a starter marriage. Like nothing was bad. It just wasn't good after a few years. So we decided to part our ways. And then whenever I got together with my husband, now, Jeremy, part of almost our vows was that we were going to promise that we would let each other change along the way, and that we would stand by each other side through those changes. And then if at some point, we change so much that we no longer get along, that we can part ways too. And so really embracing that, like my marriage is definitely a metaphor for how I'm trying to embrace that in all areas of my life and really redefine what does marriage look like for me it doesn't mean that I'm stuck at the age at which I got married. And I feel bad for celebrities for this too because I think that especially child actors, I mean, look at Miley Cyrus She has been pegged as an eight year old Disney star and has not been allowed to grow up beyond that. And people are like, I missed the old Miley, she was age. And you know, we've we've definitely seen this happen with other celebrities who reach Fame at a very young age, it kind of boxes them in at being that age. And I think that's also all I always admired Madonna, as a child is that she was always evolving and changing in front of the public eye. And I thought that that was such a brave thing to do. And so even in our next episode, Episode 100, after this one airs, we're going to be talking about what has changed, in our points of view in being boss. I mean, we've said a lot of stuff over the past two years, and some of it we don't even agree with anymore. Yeah, and I think that's what I love about being authentic and waking up every day and asking myself, who do I want to be today? What feels most like me today. And that's how we give ourselves permission to change in the grand scheme. But on a daily basis,

Emily Thompson 51:10
yes. But then also, but then doing it like it's that constant and great, and also doing it. And I think the last thing I want to say around this is, I think about authenticity and like changing in giving yourself permission. Like I know, again, it's all a process. And it's like this trust and understanding and just doing and hoping it all turns out all right. But I also think that to be authentic, you have to absolutely own it. And that if you're being like, if you're being authentically you, you're not questioning it, you're just running with it. And I think i think that i think that's a really huge portion of it as well. Like you are being unapologetic and you are embodying who it is that you want to be, you can change that tomorrow if you want to, but for the moment, you're gonna own it.

Kathleen Shannon 51:50
So there's this level of confidence that is paired with authenticity, but what if you are authentically full of self doubt,

Emily Thompson 52:00
go go journal that shit out. Because I think if you're actually doing the full spectrum of like you are, you're inquiring as to what it is that you want to do and who it is that you want to be. And you are setting your intentions and you are making strategic moves forward, there should be no self doubt like and if that's something you struggle with, like get a therapist to help you work through that. Because like all of these steps, all of these steps is what should vanquish self doubt so that you are able to confidently Be who you are.

Kathleen Shannon 52:37
Alright, we have a really great question from Carrie. And I want to make sure that we touched on this. So Carrie asks, Can you talk a little bit about privacy versus authenticity? When sharing online? Sometimes I don't like to share too much. Because I'm a private person. And I don't want the internet to know all of my thoughts. How do you determine the difference between holding back for privacy versus holding back for vulnerability? This is such a good question. And I have to hang on.

Unknown Speaker 53:16
Sorry, Curie.

Kathleen Shannon 53:19
Okay, this is such a good question. I don't think that you have to be an extrovert, who is an open book and putting it all out there to be authentic, online or offline. Some of the most authentic people I know, are also some of the most private people I know. And what it is, is they really know their boundaries. So we've mentioned her before on this podcast, we interviewed her Dr. Bernie Brown is basically the queen of vulnerability and authenticity. But what I love about her so much as a person is she knows her boundaries, she goes right up to the edge of them and test them from time to time, but she never crosses them. So I found that whenever I had a kid, I felt a lot less comfortable sharing everything online for the sake of privacy. And so I became a lot more private about my experience, not even my experience as a mom, but about my child himself. But I was still sharing my experience as a mom in a really authentic way. And sometimes I'm like really struggling that line. Sometimes I crossed the line and I pulled back a little bit. But it's always just about knowing what my boundaries are and being as honest as possible within those boundaries. So if I'm writing an article about business that has nothing to do with my personal life, and I don't feel like I'm crossing any boundaries, I will try and be as honest as possible in that business article by using words that I actually say, by bringing some of my own tone into it and expressing myself that way. What about you, Emily? What do you think about AI? You're more private and Mystique than I am.

Unknown Speaker 55:05
Right. So

Kathleen Shannon 55:06
how do you still show up in an authentic way by while still preserving your privacy?

Emily Thompson 55:11
I think it's exactly what you said and that you have boundaries, you know what they are and then you play freely within them. I think have I read something or heard something recently about Sarah Michelle Gellar, his Instagram feed, where she has this boundary that she will openly share anything and everything, but she will not Instagram anything within her bedroom. Like it's in talking about like physical boundary, like, you'll never see her like posing in front of her full length mirror in her bedroom. Or like what her I don't know, dresser looks like or whatever. And I think I think that's like a very, very real and very solid example of what this would look like. So creating boundaries, and that doesn't have to be as physical you can say, you know, I will never Instagram my kids face, which is a thing, or I will never use their name or I will never, you know, Instagram, other people in general, like you can create these boundaries for yourself. But then play freely within them and draw boundaries that you're comfortable with. Maybe that pose that push your comforter. The ability comes comfortability comfortability out of that word came out of my mouth real hard there for a second. Um, you can, you can push your own comfort if you'd like. But otherwise create boundaries play freely within them.

Kathleen Shannon 56:28
I also think that there's an art to what, wrap it up, you got to go.

Is that what you're saying?

Emily Thompson 56:36
Yeah, you weren't looking at me the first time.

Unknown Speaker 56:38
Just say it.

Kathleen Shannon 56:41
Okay, then I won't say what I'm going to say. You can

Emily Thompson 56:45
say it if you'd like,

Unknown Speaker 56:46
Okay,

Kathleen Shannon 56:47
I think that there's an art to sharing online in a way that is accessible, but maybe you're not sharing everything. So I think that people like to think of me as an open book, and I'll make jokes about sex. But you will never hear specifics about my sex life, for example, like that's just crossing a boundary for me. And so I think that there is this art to sharing in a way and you just don't have to point out the stuff that you're not sharing and the no one will ever know that you're not sharing this thing. So ultimately, I think that's what it is boundaries. Alright, you guys, thank you so much for joining us live today. And if you were listening to this episode, as it's released, be sure to go to being boss club slash events. To learn more about our live free Hangouts. We've had so much fun with you all, and we'll see you next time. So what's the secret to being boss? The secret is that there is no secret. There is no single formula course or book that will teach you what you need to know in order to have anything and everything you want.

Emily Thompson 57:57
But and here's what we've learned along the way. Being boss is setting up a solid foundation built on intention. It's understanding how to define success on your terms. It's committing to big ass goals. And it's breaking those big ass goals down into small actionable steps.

Kathleen Shannon 58:17
It's about making faster decisions, trusting yourself to see it through enjoying the process along the way, knowing how to measure what's working and what isn't. And surrounding yourself with smart, ambitious friends along the way. Those are the secrets to how bosses get what they want.

Emily Thompson 58:34
We know you want an online business that allows you to make money doing what you love, and boss we've got you. The being boss clubhouse is where we teach you how to be boss of your life and work.

Kathleen Shannon 58:47
The being boss clubhouse is a two day online real time retreat, followed by 12 months of ongoing community support, monthly masterclasses and secret podcast episodes. We're only accepting 25 members for our next online retreat. Learn more and apply to join at being boss club slash clubhouse. Thank you for listening to being boss. Please be sure to visit our website at being boss club and where you can find Show Notes for this episode. Listen to past episodes and discover more of our content that will help you be boss in work and life. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend and show some love by leaving a rating and review on iTunes. Do the

Emily Thompson 59:28
work. Be boss and we'll see you next week.