Evolving and Pivoting Your Business with Kathleen Shannon

Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host Emily Thompson. And in this episode, I'm joined by my business bestie Kathleen Shannon to talk about evolving and pivoting your business as well as when to undergo a rebrand which is honestly maybe never. You can find all the tools books and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club and if you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe to this show and share us with a friend.

Emily Thompson 0:37

Whether you're a full time boss or dabbling in a side hustle learning from those who have already been there done that is a powerful way to give you a leg up on your own journey. To help you gather those lessons and inspiration que up an episode of the Side Hustle Pro podcast hosted by Nicaila Matthews Okome brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network the audio destination for business professionals. Join host Nicaila to learn actionable strategies to start small and get going wherever and whoever you are, as she interviews inspiring black women entrepreneurs, like Ashley Reynolds and episode number 309 and a conversation about how Ashley launched and grew the popular stationery brand Cloth and Paper, a special one for all of you planner loving bosses out there. Listen to Side Hustle Pro wherever you get your podcasts.

Emily Thompson 1:30

Kathleen Shannon is the co founder and former co host of the Being Boss podcast joining me for the first 240 ish episodes of this show. With several one off episodes since. Kathleen is a partner and creative director at Braid Creative a branding agency she founded with her sister over 10 years ago, Kathleen has always lived by capturing, shaping and sharing who she is, whether that's with a blog post a podcast or on social media. Welcome back to Kath. Welcome back to Kathleen. I don't even know how to start this.

Kathleen Shannon 2:01

I'm back. I'm back bosses.

Emily Thompson 2:07

Right so in the last episode Kathleen joined us for she made this sort of passing but very pointed comment that she just wanted to come back and do more episodes. And afterwards I was like if you're serious. Come on, I have all of these recording blocks scheduled out you can come snag any and all that you want. And you were like, Are you sure? And I was like yeah, if you're sure. And so you came and schedule yourself for basically all of them.

Kathleen Shannon 2:33

Yep. Except for whenever I'm going to be in Japan. So yes, I'm going to be on all the episodes for the next little bit.

Emily Thompson 2:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually,

Kathleen Shannon 2:44

we all want to know ish.

Emily Thompson 2:45

So though the way she's coming to talk, you'll be here for this one, I think we have a couple of guest episodes in there. And then once we get I think later into like, late spring and summer, there's going to be like a whole fun line of Kathleen episodes. And I'm getting very excited about all the things that we can talk about. Over the next couple of weeks. We have a really fun one planned for tomorrow that we will talk about tomorrow, and then you will will hear about it later.

Kathleen Shannon 3:18

In six months.

Emily Thompson 3:19

I'm excited about some of the fun things that. Six, I think like one, which will feel like six and podcast years. But I'm excited to have you back. As I've done this show without you for the past couple of years. I do always incredibly miss the ease with which we're able to dive into conversations and really like I don't know, have a good time. But what I hope and feel is providing some value in a way that makes recording way much more fun for me. So thanks for coming to make my job easy again.

Kathleen Shannon 3:53

I'm happy to do it. You know, that's actually one of my as a boss, like when my boss tenants whenever it comes to working for myself and with my team, is to just always make everyone else's job a little bit easier. So I'm here for you.

Emily Thompson 4:09

I love that. And that's a good boss, tenant and right.

Kathleen Shannon 4:12

Yeah.

Emily Thompson 4:13

Thanks for not being in Karen, Kathleen.

Kathleen Shannon 4:17

All right, what are we talking about today?

Emily Thompson 4:21

All right. Today we are talking. We're doing a branding episode. Very like Kathleen to send over a couple of topics and one of the big ones and the first ones being a conversation about branding. So you were here a couple of weeks ago to talk about personal branding, in particular sort of an updated conversation about that. But today I think we're here to talk about evolving your brand and business and we've done a couple of episodes on this in the past. Both you and I but also me with some other guests. They're always really popular episodes, because creatives are really great at pivoting You know, evolving, and wanting a rebrand, and all of that. So I'm excited to have a chat with you today about this, from your perspective and from this sort of evolved perspective that comes from you being in this space for so long. So, branding and business, which is a very Kathleen topic.

Kathleen Shannon 5:19

Well, and it's fun, because we've both owned a couple of businesses that have evolved themselves. So speaking from personal experience of how we've evolved over the past decade plus, in many different of our ventures and endeavors, and then also having been doing Braid now for over 10 years Braid Creative, which is my branding agency that I co founded with my sister, we're having a lot of repeat clients. So clients that were with us 5, 8, 10 years ago coming back, because they're evolving their brand, sometimes it requires a whole rebrand and going through another Braid method process. Sometimes it doesn't require anything at all other than just a little bit of permission. And reminding them that not a lot has changed, just because a couple of things have changed, like they can still keep their same messaging and positioning and brand, even though they've evolved. And here's how to do it. So I'm hoping to really cover a few of those things today.

Emily Thompson 6:19

Yeah, I also think this is a good conversation, because I don't know if you feel this way, but my fingers are still so in online business, it feels like for years, we've said online business changes so quickly, but I feel like it's changing at a faster rate now than it ever has before. And it's kind of a wild thing to really be in as deep as I am in. And I would imagine that everyone else who's in it as deep as I am feels it as well. So I think like people's businesses are evolving faster and more often than ever before. And I also know that any business owner who's about two to three years in their business, get to a point where a refresh, a rebrand, a pivot, something is happening, because you've been a business owner for long enough and whatever space you've chosen, doing the thing that you're doing, that you've learned some things and it's time for you to sort of nail it down to narrow in. And so not only is it something that we know, is happening faster, maybe than ever before, because of the nature of how it is that or where it is that a lot of us are doing business. But it is also a part of absolutely everyone's path, at some point in the business journey. So it really is applicable to literally everybody, at some point.

Kathleen Shannon 7:41

You know, I can't help but bring astrology into this a little bit, you know how we have our Saturn Return every 28 years and how in astrology, there's these patterns, there's these cycles. And I think that the same thing happens a little bit in your business. So whenever you are talking about two to three years in, I do think that there is kind of a two to three year cycle in general whenever it comes to really hitting these milestones where you're going to evolve. And like you said, it's either because you're recognizing patterns, you're maybe shifting an offering, you might be evolving who you serve. So whether that's narrowing in or expanding out, maybe there's some behind the scenes evolutions that have happened, or maybe you're growing your team, or you've gotten further education or certifications or trainings that you want to start to incorporate. So I'd love to talk a little bit about maybe the different ways and why you might be evolving your business. So the first thing I can think of and the thing that probably shifts the most in general, is shifting your offering or evolving your offerings. So even if you have a signature offering, which I've had in my business for the past 10 years, and that has really served me well. There might be different iterations of how you expand or scale that. So for example, at Braid Creative, we shifted our offering of one on one branding, and then we scaled it to then offer a course that anyone could buy and do on their own right. And that's actually an offering that you convinced me to do Emily, and that was an evolution of going from this one on one space into this online space. You might also be you know, refining your offering. So maybe at the beginning, you're like, I will do whatever for whoever whenever just give me some money, which I think again, is really great for younger entrepreneurs or younger in your journey entrepreneurs. But you might find that you want to really narrow in on one aspect of what it is that you're offering, you know, and really being known for that thing kind of like really gripping onto an expertise. There's also other ways that your offerings can shift like Emily, can you think of any other ways that your offerings have shifted over the years or evolved?

Emily Thompson 9:55

Oh, for sure. I mean, I think you know, back in my web design days, there was If there was like a very branding print well like any sort of like business graphic design, you need it, I would do in the beginning sort of what you're saying that like, whatever you need, just give me the money. And I'll do it for you. And then evolving into what became our indie boom projects, which were these six to 12 months, like, big projects, where we were doing, quote, unquote, all the things, but specific things like there were, there became things that I would not do anymore, they needed to fit within the confines of these projects. And so that was definitely a big evolution, or even I think here at Being Boss. You know, here, it's a little bit more of a funny story where, you know, we didn't start Being Boss with a business model. This was just a fun project. So everything that we've done here has been an evolution from this being just a show that we started for fun in marketing to being a whole thing. And so it was, you know, not a moneymaker into a moneymaker. It was live events, and then virtual events, it has been coaching, it has been masterminds, it has been so many things. But it's all been been Within These confines, right, this sort of structure or these boundaries that we created for creatives, which has made it made what could feel like bigger shifts into what is really just evolving, because there have been core elements that have stayed the same along the way.

Kathleen Shannon 11:28

Oh that's got me really thinking about kind of organic evolution versus intentional evolution. And that maybe that's like one of the big defining factors of an evolving business is that it just kind of happens, like whenever you start to go with the flow, and follow your interests, and follow what your customers are asking for, and it feels in alignment with what you want to be doing and what you want to be known for. That's like a really great way. And it's really just then noticing that evolution, and really shifting the way that you're putting yourself out there to line up with that evolution to make sure that what you're doing is being reflected on the outside. Well, one thing I wanted to mention was with Indie Boom, I think it's also really cool that you evolve that offering. And it really wasn't much of an evolution. It wasn't like this huge evolution, it was kind of just a small tweak that made a huge impact in how you packaged your offerings. So instead of doing al-a-cart, this and that here and there, where you're spending a ton of time and money on estimates and proposals and dealing with scope creep and invoicing and all of the things, you package it all up so that it's one seamless product. And it really also then serves your client better too where you have a customer journey that you're taking them on that probably makes them feel more reassured and confident whenever it comes to hiring you. But again, it wasn't this huge shift. It was just like, shift in perspective, more than anything.

Emily Thompson 13:00

Yeah, I feel like we often talk about dialing it in, right, like you get the thing. And then you just start like making small tweaks of the dial to like really get it to where it needs to be. And that is what evolution is. And I love that you, you brought up this like organic versus intentional of I think if I think organic evolution happens, like markets change, right? Circumstances shift where you are, who it is that you can best serve us those sorts of things organically shift. But I think once you start recognizing an organic shift, making it intentional, is incredibly important, or else you're gonna end up just like way down a road that you never wanted to go down. So there is like a letting things shift as they need to shift and not being too rigid, especially in the online world. But at the same time being aware and taking a hold of the opportunities when they start showing themselves as being worth the effort.

Kathleen Shannon 13:58

Well, and that comes back to one of our pillars of Being Boss, which is boundaries and having boundaries. So I think that to evolve in a way that feels really good. It does require having boundaries that you will not cross. So if there's something that you don't want to do, even though every single person is asking for it. So for example, in my business, that would be building websites, people would love it if we were more turnkey and did their branding and their brand package and then could just upload it to a website. But we have found time and time again, that is just not in our wheelhouse. It is not in our core genius. And so we keep declining and every year or two I come back to should we be offering this? Should we grow our team in this way? What would that look like? And time and time again, I have to remind myself Nope. There are reasons why we don't offer Web. God bless all of you web designer and developers out there I feel for you.

Emily Thompson 14:54

And I'm like no, don't do it. Don't do it.

Emily Thompson 14:55

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Emily Thompson 14:56

So then, that thing that's a great picture of evolution. Let's talk about pivoting. Because I do think this is bigger. And it's funny. I feel like most times when people say they're pivoting, they're actually just evolving. So what actually is a pivot?

Kathleen Shannon 16:16

Yes, I mean, I think of a pivot as making, like 180 degree turn, like you are going one way and then you turn and you're going the other way now. So for me a pivot looks like burning it all down and starting from scratch. Or it looks like a total rebrand where you're maybe changing your name. And maybe your offering isn't changing a whole lot. But that feels a little bit more like a pivot to me. What about you? What do you think about pivoting versus evolving?

Emily Thompson 16:48

Yeah, I think I agree with the 180 comment. I was thinking about this this morning, as I was driving to work, like what is the difference between an evolution and a pivot because this is small, and I think we are using it incorrectly. Often when we are talking about pivoting. And I thought about how you know, there's the elevator pitch of you know, I am so and so and I do this for these people. And I think a pivot happens when you're what it is that you do drastically changes or who you do it for drastically changes or even more so if it's both of those things, because then basically, it's just a whole new business. And so I think that there's like, there's a scale of like, maybe instead of evolving, and pivoting being two incredibly different things actually just think they're two ends of the spectrum. Right. And in the middle, there's this like I'm changing one or the other. And and then on the other on the pivoting side is I'm changing like all the way on the pivoting side is I'm changing both. And so that's how I think about it is if you are doing something completely different, but for the same people are doing the same thing, but for completely different people than you have entered the realm of pivoting.

Kathleen Shannon 18:05

Yeah, it's interesting, because even in my own business, Braid Creative has evolved tremendously in that we went from offering branding for creative entrepreneurs, to also offering branding for organizations and institutions and nonprofits and larger businesses. And it was a really interesting challenge, because we're still evolving our customer base, but we didn't really necessarily change or pivot our product or offering. Now we've evolved how we apply the Braid method to those different clients. Like it looks a little bit different for that those client bases. But the challenge that I've had with evolving there is that people thought it was a pivot whenever it wasn't, it was an evolution, because we're still serving creative entrepreneurs, we still do one on one branding for creative entrepreneurs, or small business owners. And we love doing that. And we will probably never really stop doing that. And so there can be a positioning problem whenever you start to expand like whenever your evolution involves expansion, because I think that people are so used to seeing other creatives pivot and like kind of remove their flag from one hill and put it in another hill. And I think that that's really impressive. And that's another thing. But evolving is more like if you're reading a book, evolving is the next chapter in that book, or maybe the next series in that series of books, right? Whereas a pivot is the same author, but maybe a whole new book about a whole new subject. None of the characters are the same. So that's probably the metaphor I think of the most whenever I think of a pivot versus an evolution.

Emily Thompson 19:45

Yeah, I love that one. I think you know, going from IndieShopography, working with creatives with websites and all of these things and going into Being Boss were still same people with completely different product that was a pivot, right, that was a very big change that I made. And even going from Being Boss into Almanac, even larger pivot, and there's been evolutions within the context of all three of those businesses along the way, including the ending of Indie several years ago. But those big shifts are pivots. And so oftentimes, I think when people are saying, I'm pivoting, no, you're not, you're evolving. And I think if you were to shift the language around it, you'd probably have way less fraudy feelings about it, which is another thing I think we'll be talking about later. Because we think that we think that, you know, pivoting is a sign of like, not being able to, like settle into what we're doing or whatever, whatever stories we're telling ourselves as we are evolving along the way. Whereas if you position it as evolving, it's easier to just accept the natural changes that come as you grow as a professional. And as your business grows with time.

Kathleen Shannon 21:03

I work with quite a few life coaches and therapists, that's one of the small businesses that hire us for one on one branding. And sometimes they'll come back to us a few years later and say, Okay, I'm pivoting, I'm going from life coaching to death coaching, I'm now going to be a death doula. And I even consider that actually more of an evolution than a total pivot. And I think that people just get really freaked out. And I don't know where the blockage is or where they get stuck on thinking that it's a total drastic change. And really more than anything, what they need is a sense of comfort and permission whenever it comes to evolving and growing into what they want to be. So the one thing I want any of you to remember, as you're evolving, or even pivoting, and totally starting from scratch with something new, is to remember that you are the common denominator, you have, you know, changed, of course along your journey, but you are still you and you if you trust that if you have confidence in you, and who you are as a business owner, that will shine through no matter what kind of evolution or pivot you make. And so, to your point, Emily, you had IndieShopography. I remember at one point, maybe you were even thinking about rebranding it as Indie Boom, which would have been a really cool evolution. That's like an example of where you could have evolved the brand, to go away from just being for online shops to being for anyone who's doing business online, right, like this Indie Boom, and it's kind of like rebranding around your package offering, which I think is another great evolution. But really, even then, with Being Boss and Almanac, you've never just said, Hey, everything I've done in the past has nothing to do with this. You've always brought who you are and what you've learned along the way into what's next. So make sure that whenever it comes to the next path, you know, the next path that you're taking, or getting further down the road that you're already on, the scenery might change. But you are still the person taking that journey. And you've got all of that experience and knowledge that you've built up along the way. And that will propel you, it will fuel you, it will make the work that you do so much faster. I know that anytime I'm evolving in a way that feels like I'm going back, I'm like, Okay, let's go back to blank. And I always have to shift my language and mindset around that I'm not going back, I'm actually moving forward. So even for example, coming back on the podcast for a little bit, I'm like, I kind of want to come back to Being Boss. It's not really coming back. It's kind of joining you back on the journey of where you've been and moving forward. And I've been on a journey too for the past couple of years. So it's just interesting. Really, how mindset can play such a big part whenever it comes to evolving.

Emily Thompson 23:51

Yeah, for sure. I think I think all of those points are incredibly valid. And I do think you know, that's one of the reasons why here on Being Boss as we are interviewing other people are always asking them to share their journey first. Because everyone's paths are incredibly windy. Right? We all do crazy things along the way to get where we are. We're collecting all these tools to put in our tool belt so that whenever we show up to do the thing, you know, actually I don't even believe that there is like the thing we're meant to do in our lives, you know that we're prepared for it. We're just taking all these little steps along the way. So love all of that. I want to talk then about rebranding and refreshing because I think we just did some redefining of both a pivoting and evolving and I think we're probably going to be doing the same with rebranding and refreshing, aren't we?

Kathleen Shannon 24:41

I think so. I think so. So the difference between a rebrand and a refresh. A rebrand is where you might be changing your name. You might be shifting. I mean, I really do think it's a name change which comes with I mean that seems kind of surfacy. Right, just changing your name. But usually there's a big catalyst behind that.

Emily Thompson 25:04

Like the pivot. Yeah, it's like it's what an actual pivot is happening.

Kathleen Shannon 25:09

Right. And so I find that sometimes people want to rebrand whenever they're going from having a personality driven business to a business that they want to grow and evolve beyond just themselves and their face, right? It might happen in the opposite way where someone has had a business name, and they're ready to put their own personal brand more in the forefront, they're ready to begin speaking, or publishing or podcasting, or YouTubing, or writing a book, whatever that might look like for them, they want to bring themselves front and center and go from doing to teaching. And so both of these might be reasons for a rebrand. And sometimes they can kind of work together in that can even be an evolution, where there's this kind of transition that happens of going from a business to a personal brand. So for example, with you, Emily, in IndieShopography, it could have been you, let's say you're wanting to bring about your personal brand a little bit more. Well, you decide to start Being Boss, which we almost named the Emily and Kathleen show. But it could have been IndieShopography with Emily Thompson, right. And you start to then reverse the hierarchy of that tagline with Emily Thompson, to now your brand is Emily Thompson, founder of IndieShopography, right? So you can kind of almost think about it as like shifting hierarchies in your business. So anyway, that's one example of a rebrand where a refresh might just be updating your logo, typography, colors, marks, we've seen examples of this happen with lots of corporations over the years, like whenever there's just the subtle tweaks and refinements because maybe you designed your logo in 2008. And now you look at it, and you're like, oh, wow, that was real trendy in 2008. You know, like, if you have an arch in your logo right now, you know, and your logo was created in 2018. Like, you might refresh. And listen, I designed some archy logos. And I didn't know like, sometimes you don't know, or sometimes you want to be trendy, and relevant, and then evolve with the new trends. And that's okay, too. It really is thinking about the what doesn't change. So really keeping from a graphic design perspective, because that's my forte is really thinking about your color palette, your typography, your imagery, what stays the same, and what's changing and evolving as you go. You know, I'm obsessed about how our cells turnover every seven years like and we're a whole new person, I think I even wrote about this in our book. I'm obsessed with this idea that our our whole bodies change over every seven years. But then there's still this aspect of us who is the same our whole lifetime. So I kind of think about a refresh that way where it's like, what are you shedding? What are you bringing in and seven years from now, those slow evolutions from a visual external standpoint, might have a totally different brand, but you've ease your customers and yourself along the way.

Emily Thompson 28:18

Yeah, yes. And I love the sort of, again, whenever you adopt the real words for what it is that you're doing, you put yourself in a better place to embrace the ease of a process, I think if you think about, oh, I have to rebrand, like, who's staying awake with anxiety all night thinking about all the things that you need to do to make your business work. And it's, you know, new evolved iteration. Whereas if you're like, Okay, I just need to refresh the ease with which you can move forward with this, you know, new direction that you've taken for yourself, I think that anything that it helps you, I don't know, embrace the changes, and not let things hold you back from moving into what it is that you're doing next. And also, and also, at the same time, bring the correct weight to what a rebrand should be for your business if and when you choose that path as well.

Kathleen Shannon 29:12

Yes, I really want to hone in on this a little bit. Because a refresh is not going to take a lot of resources. It's not going to take a whole lot of time, energy and money, right? A rebrand is like starting from scratch, if not more so because now you know what you didn't know the first time you started the business, right? So I would not go into a rebrand lightly. There is something really liberating about saying, You know what, I'm just gonna shut it all down and start fresh, like in some ways, that might give you more ability and permission to do what it is that you really want to do in a new way that makes sense for you. And it's probably also based on like your personality type, right? And what feels better to you. But so you could do a refresh with the trajectory of kind of a rebrand. So it's going Have a really slow rebrand, like easing into it. Or you can just rip the band aid off and rebrand if that's your jam. The thing is, and the thing I want to caution anyone against, and this even includes investing in a brand, before you've even started doing your business, before you've even figured it out is that it can be very costly way to figure out that you don't want to be known for something, right. So just be very careful whenever it comes to branding or rebranding, whenever you don't have enough experience on your belt, because you might find a year from now that you hate being a life coach, and you've built this whole brand and identity around being a life coach, you know, or a specific kind of life coach or offering a certain things. So just be careful there, I would test the waters. And that's the nice thing about a brand evolution. And a great way to employ a brand evolution and a business evolution is in your content and in the customers that you serve. So it can be a very, if you want to do in an intentional way, it could be saying, Hey, I would love to be doing more of this kind of work for this kind of person. Even if that's not reflected in your portfolio yet, by putting it out there, either in a podcast or a blog post or on social media, or however you're getting yourself out there. Do that, get a little bit of experience on your belt, see what you like, see what you don't like? One thing that I always like to ask my clients, whenever they come to me whether it's for a rebrand or refresh is like, Okay, if you could only do one thing, what is it that you would want to do all day every day? And if you could stop doing one thing? What would that be? Like? That's a great way to think about your evolution in your business. But then also, a third question I've been asking a lot lately is, what's something new that you want to try? And there is a lot in that question too. And that can that's usually the thing that's a little bit more scary, that's going to take a little bit more momentum, and whether that momentum requires a coach, or a community, like the Being Boss Community to like, kind of get that support under you or that momentum or that encouragement. You know, that's the thing that also might lead you to a more intentional evolution that's not just kind of falling in your lap.

Emily Thompson 32:11

Yeah, oh, I love all of that. And I hope that's inspiring folks to think about what's next for your business one way or the other, because they think that or I know that especially doing business online, but also also all business. I also say this as someone who runs a rock shop, which is like, rocks are one of the first things being traded by humankind ever, right like this is like the world's oldest business right here. Rocks.

Kathleen Shannon 32:36

and well aside from you know, selling your body, like the boss, you are Emily.

Emily Thompson 32:43

Right or like food or water, sure, some more necessities, and then there's rocks. So even as someone who is in in one of the world's oldest industries, business is still changing consistently. And I think that if you are, you know, too rigid, too married to a brand that you spent a lot of money on that you're afraid to adjust because you made an investment or whatever it may be. The more rigid you are, the more you're closing yourself up to the opportunities ahead of you as you're evolving. And what I love about especially that like that question of what do you want to be doing? Or what do you want to do next? Or what do you want to explore whatever it is that you're opening up to the experience of what is next for you, and or your business and or your customers or whatever it may be. And I think that's, that's a really powerful thing. But I also know that there's a group of creatives in particular who love the pivot and the evolution. Are always pivoting and evolving.

Kathleen Shannon 33:45

And it's tricky because you might not ever be gaining traction if you're constantly pivoting and evolving. And you wonder why you're just kind of spinning in your own wheel. It's because you haven't given it a chance to like really hook in.

Emily Thompson 34:00

I think, I think there's lots of paths, I think, if you are here to be a freelancer to just make money in whatever way you can, using the skills that you have the constant evolution or pivot or whatever like that is for you, for sure. Like you have chosen that path and I love that for you. If you are here to grow a business, something that you expect to have longevity, then you need to commit to a thing for a while, small evolutions along the way for sure. But like you need to let the thing get traction even as we shared. You know, my path of three businesses. This over the course of 12 years, right? This is not like I started one and two years later, I started another one and two years later I started another one and there's been overlaps of all of them as well. So over the course of 12 probably even more than that. Now if I'm being quite honest, I haven't done the math in a long time. I just got to 12 and stopped. Now like you turn 32 and you stop aging. I think that's what I did.

Kathleen Shannon 34:57

I feel like you're not even counting the jewelry business in the in this storyline.

Emily Thompson 35:01

Oh no or the tanning salon. Then that's a hearty, like 20 years, just about I think. So you know, these are things where you get in you like, dig into the thing and you build the thing you like you're making money, you're profitable, whatever. And then things happen along the way that gives you the ability to shift and change or even think of Being Boss, like the business with no business model, right where like, we have just been here to evolve along the way, is still a place where like, if you look at our branding, it has been, visually, we've only ever truly had two, there have been like small evolutions, especially in the second one. and the like positioning has always been the exact same.

Kathleen Shannon 35:49

Yeah.

Emily Thompson 35:50

The exact same. So you can like you can dig into something and evolve within it, but still have your container be the exact same. So I don't know, I just wanted to throw that out there of like, what these sort of options look like, because we are talking about all of these things and like you should be doing them all the time and you should be. But you can also do them in a way that allows you to really grow and mature something to get out of it what you most need before you make a big pivot into something else.

Emily Thompson 36:23

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Kathleen Shannon 37:33

I want to talk a little bit about behind the scenes evolutions. It's not as sexy, but I feel like it's something that you're especially an expert at Emily, which is like evolving systems and processes. So as you continue to grow as a business or even see what's working and what's not working, you're going to want to evolve how you work. So things like your invoicing, your project management and your project flow, how you're managing your money, what the customer journey looks like, and their user experience from the first time they email you or walk into your shop to the final deliverables that they have purchased, or that you are finally providing for them. There's also behind the scenes evolutions like growing your team or shrinking your team, or moving into an online space. Like there are so many different kinds of behind the scene evolutions that nobody sees that are integral, the hardest time of that word that are foundational to your business. Okay, good.

Emily Thompson 38:35

Good job. You did it. Yeah, you're totally right. There is like a, there's an outward facing sort of, you know, branding, business positioning, you know, evolution or pivot. And I think that usually happens, more, more intentional, or more intentionally, and probably visibly little less often, whereas internal evolutions, I mean, I'm tweaking and making more effective constantly, right, keeping things in tip top shape and running as smoothly and as efficiently as possible. Daily, more or less, maybe not daily, that feels a little dramatic, but consistently for sure. So absolutely, it's not just an external phenomenon in business, it's also very much so internal.

Kathleen Shannon 39:25

Alright, so what about how to know whenever it's time to evolve, if you haven't had this kind of organic evolve meant happening in your business and in your brand? How do you know whenever it's time to evolve? Because things aren't feeling quite right. You know, like, someone might be listening to this and being like, Hmm, I think I need to evolve but it's just not happening. What does that look like for a small business owner or a creative entrepreneur?

Emily Thompson 39:51

Yeah, I mean, have you gotta hit it on the head. I think you know, I think you just know like, you feel it, something feels off. But I also think like, look at your numbers. or we even have a worksheet for this, right? It's a worksheet called What's working kind of working, not working, we'll include a link to it in the show notes, where you can literally sit down and look at all of your offerings. Look at all of your, you know, the customers that your business serves, whatever it may be, and decide what's working, what's kind of working, what's not working. And whenever things start shifting around, when you know, things that used to work, don't work anymore, or only kind of working, that's usually a sign that there needs to be some sort of evolution and maybe, maybe the customer that you're serving isn't really the customer, you need to be serving anymore, maybe how it is that you're delivering it isn't how it needs to be delivered anymore, whatever it may be. I think getting in and doing some analysis. Backing up feelings with numbers always is incredibly important, and really pinpointing the thing that it is time to evolve or delete, or if it all just needs to be pivoted into something completely different. I think a good analysis is great for helping you decide if this is just like a sparkly object situation where you just maybe want to do the next thing because you have an itch, or if your business actually needs it.

Kathleen Shannon 41:16

And tools like the CEO Day kit that Being Boss offers, you know, that's a great way to check in with yourself as you go. And it's really going to facilitate either natural evolutions that you just didn't take the time to really get on paper, or it's going to bring about intentional evolutions that you know, you need to make, but you hadn't quite pinpointed or identified, and then I can't help it plugs the Braid Method, branding workbook, because again, these are like worksheets that you can print off, and you can print off multiple of them. So let's say you have a business idea, and you want to do a total pivot, you could take that whole idea through kind of a branding process, or through the CEO Day kit, and see on paper if it works or doesn't work, or how different it is from what you're already doing. And that's the thing is that, you know, I've had some people who want to go through the Braid method for two different businesses, and they're filling out their cards the exact same way. And I'm like, Okay, this is one business, this is not two businesses, and this is one, because you've filled everything out identically. Um, so these are just tools that will really help you really figure out what's intentional, what's organic, where you're at, and where you want to go, and even where you've been, and how all of that can back up how you continue to, you know, take yourself on this trajectory of where you want to go and be the boss of your work and life.

Emily Thompson 42:42

Yeah, love it all, we have lots of tools for you, basically. Okay, next, I want to talk about how to do this in the most boss way possible, because I think we've all been in a place where it is time to evolve and or pivot. And a lot can happen along the way. And so I think talking about what it looks like to actually do it and to maintain, you know, brand integrity or business integrity or, you know, keep your cool along the way we hit on fraudy feelings a minute ago, I think that's something that definitely comes up along the way, as you are making these moves in business. Let's talk about what it means to be boss, as you make shifts in your business.

Kathleen Shannon 43:23

Well, I think that the idea of having a shift feels really sparkly and exciting. And then the rubber meets the road.

Emily Thompson 43:25

Or terrifying. I want to throw in here, because I think if you I think if you do the exercise, you know what's working kind of working, not working, you realize it that the core of what you do and that you've done for 10, 15 20 years, I don't even know isn't working anymore, because something in the market has changed or something and how you deliver has changed or whatever. I think it can also be incredibly terrifying to be at a place where you need to pivot.

Kathleen Shannon 43:59

Well, I think it's almost like the New Year's resolution effect where you're like, okay, something's going to change, and I want to change like a boss, what's it going to be and your New Year's resolution might stick for a week or two, and then you kind of fall out of it, right? And so really going about an evolution and making and reflecting that change across the board. It takes some really unsexy work, right. And it takes some work that you have to dedicate yourself to. So first and foremost, I would say getting the tools that you need to create that framework of like what's evolved and what hasn't we covered that, like the Braid Branding workbook is a great place and this CEO Day kit and all of the worksheets that you offer Emily are a great place to start, right. So getting it on paper. Second, I would do an audit of what you already have, I would make sure to print off like on paper, your entire website and your social media and we have actually a branding checklist on the braid blog. It's totally free that you can use to kind of audit all the This is where your business shows up, right? And what you want to do is take a red pen to it and a highlighter and highlight what's working, take a red pen to things that, you know, there might be stuff that you've already evolved that is so outdated on your website that you forgot was there, and we are all guilty of this, all of us could benefit from doing this exercise. So really look at where you are and what you're already sharing and showing. And then from there, I would start to prioritize what you update first and foremost, is it your logo? Is it just simply some of the copy on your website? Is it your Instagram handle? Or is it you know, even curating your feed like Emily, I noticed the other day that being boss had like five photos up like you just like wiped everything out, that was no longer relevant, right. And so it really does look like doing a really good audit. And a lot of that looks like slashing like, I think it's a good audit and a good edit of like removing, removing, removing, then from there, I think that you can really start to add back in. And you can start to add back in new messaging and positioning around what you want to be known for, you can update your portfolio to share more of the work you want to attract more of. Yeah, that's, that's how I would go about it. And you have to schedule this stuff into your calendar like this is a job, you need to workflow it like an actual project, like you would for a client, but for yourself, because if you don't do that, it's just not going to happen speaking from experience.

Emily Thompson 46:32

yeah, for sure. It is like it is the project you're tackling this quarter or next quarter or whatever it may be and should be treated as such. I also want to throw in something whether you're on the LIKE sparkly excited camp, or the completely terrified camp. One of the things to keep in mind as you're auditing and editing I love that is that a rebrand or refresh or even a pivot should be taking you further into your values and what it is that you're great at. And I think if you can keep that in mind, it gives some like courage and strength to the task that you have ahead and helps you really narrow in on what it is that you need to be evolving or pivoting into. As opposed to following any shiny objects along the way of like really getting in there and making this huge workload, this large workload really worth it for where it is that you want to be. One of the things that I really want to point out here too, though, because I've seen this happen so many times, especially for people who are like always evolving a lot and always pivoting a lot, or even people who are just doing the one big one is that you should not let the sparkliness and excitement of a rebrand or a refresh or a launch or pivot or any of those things distract you from what matters. And that is your customers, your commitments, and whatever deliverables you are responsible for. I find a lot of people getting into this, like huge project of rebranding, and they piss off all their customers along the way. Because they're working on the thing as opposed to like doing what it is that they're supposed to be doing for their people. Or they completely lose sight of those things, and aren't properly communicating or whatever it may be in are focusing too much on the thing and less so about the reputation that they're still going to carry into the next thing that they're doing.

Kathleen Shannon 48:26

This could be a whole other episode, actually, we should do a whole other episode on how to roll out a rebrand because I think that's a big fear that people have what you just mentioned. And I bet that you're poking at a lot of people's fear of doing that. Um, I will say that some of my more you know, like mature clients who have their business and they are still delivering one of their biggest fears is alienating or making excluding a customer base that they've built up by making a necessary evolution. So one of my clients that I can think of is the podcast Pantsuit Politics, they've gone through now two brand processes with me and they started as kind of being Sarah from the left and Beth from the right right so sharing this like liberal and conservative point of view. Well, now they've both evolved over time to both be on kind of the more left side of the aisle, they're both registered Democrats now. Anyway, all this to say though, they had built such a reputation and all this brand equity in their positioning of being from opposite sides of the aisle and they were so afraid because they love their audience base. They even love their like, say they even love. This is where my biases are coming in. They love their conservative listeners, you know, they love they really have built a really cool, interesting strong community and they were really scared of alienating them. I think the same thing happened whenever Being Boss shifted from being the two of us to then just being you like, what does that mean for the brand and is this going to scare people are upset them. And yeah, it did upset a couple of people. And I think that the biggest challenge that happens with your customers is that they feel that their experience was invalidated whenever you shift your brand, because they think that you're saying something was wrong before. And so you're cutting it out, and it makes them feel like how they invested in you is wrong. So you really do want to bring your customer in along the way you want to thank them for being a part of this evolution, think about how you can roll them into this evolution, even if they're not your dream customer anymore. They helped to get you where you are now, and they are a part of your story and making them feel a part of that story is truly essential to growing ahead. So you know, that's just again, this could be a whole other episode on how to roll out a relaunch or a refresh or a rebrand, because you can do it in a few different ways that will put everyone at ease yourself and your customer.

Emily Thompson 50:57

Yeah, and I think you really just hit on like one of the biggest things harking back to something we mentioned earlier in this episode, this idea of the fraudy feelings that come from these pivots of like, wondering if people will get it, if they'll trust you in your new direction, if they will feel invalidated whenever you make a change, or whatever it may be if they feel like they have been, you know, defrauded along the way. And that's dramatic. In most cases, no, that's not really how that works. It just is the fraud the feelings that are showing up. But if you can keep the conversations open and be honest and vulnerable with the people especially and I'm not talking, necessarily blasting on social media, I'm talking like personal emails to your nearest and dearest clients, right? Those sorts of folks, then they will help ease the fraudy feelings that can naturally come from deciding, hey, I'm tired of doing things this way. Or I'm done doing things this way. I need to do things in a new way, which is a scary step. But they'll be much more willing to back you along the way. If you're open about the process. The only thing I can think of the how you should not do this. Do you remember I should probably give this a quick Google but I don't actually want to name names you everyone can do their own googling. A couple of years ago, a really popular Oracle Card designer and like writer came out very dramatically one day as a born again Christian and completely, like, put down every bit of work that she had ever done. And anyone who like was still using them was sinning and like I mean, like it went real crazy, real fast. That's how you don't want to do it. By any means. But in most cases, our pivots are not that dramatic, and people who support you are there to support you, no matter what it is that you're doing within reason, obviously,

Kathleen Shannon 52:51

Exactly. I mean, I think that you spoke to the fraudy feelings that come up with even a rebrand or refresh. And those fraudy feelings show up as being overly concerned about what your customer base is going to think. Nine times out of 10, they're not going to think anything at all, they're not even going to notice, like one of my it's not a pet peeve, but it's like, I think it's a little cringy sometimes people like big announcement tomorrow, you know, and then it's that they changed their logo, like nobody cares. If you've got a big announcement, it's got to be like after 2020, it's got to be bigger than a logo change, right? So this should bring you this should bring you peace of mind and comfort in that you're thinking about yourself more than anybody else's, like most people aren't going to be affected or upset or even really notice. So on both sides of the same coin, whether you're going to maybe upset people or invalidate them with your update or change. Or that you think that everyone's going to be super stoked and excited for you. It's definitely somewhere in the middle, you want to invite again, just invite people along the way and use it as an opportunity to continue to nurture the community that you've created.

Emily Thompson 54:10

Yeah, I love it. Kathleen, this has been a treat anything else you want to add about? Refreshing, rebranding, evolving, pivoting? Whatever, whatever. All of the above?

Kathleen Shannon 54:21

I think I think that about covers it.

Emily Thompson 54:25

Yeah, this feels good.

Kathleen Shannon 54:26

I mean, I have so much more stuff to say about like, brand equity and reputation. But maybe we can dive into that stuff in a future episode.

Emily Thompson 54:34

Yeah, for sure. Outline that I'm here for it for sure. But I think that this is a really good job of of giving a look at this process and how on one hand, you don't have to take it as seriously I think a lot of people take it like if you're just evolving. That's a natural part of the process. And not all of it has to be this like mind bendy huge investments scenario where you are changing your entire life because your business needs to evolve a little bit. And on the other hand, on the other hand, really giving proper weight to the process that is either pivoting or rebranding your business, and making sure that, that you're giving it the purpose that it needs. But in most cases, what we're doing isn't quite that serious.

Kathleen Shannon 55:22

What's making you feel most boss lately?

Emily Thompson 55:26

What's making me feel most boss? How about this fun little tidbit? So, a couple episodes ago, I mentioned that I went to the doctor last year, and my blood pressure is out of control, like hardcore. How about it ain't no more.

Kathleen Shannon 55:43

Yay!

Emily Thompson 55:45

I know. I know. I've been resting and like and just like very intentionally just chilling the fuck out. Like a whole lot. And like, keeping my calendar pretty chill. And knowing that, like, I have that much agency over my own body, which like I know, but until you like really need to experience and do. It's a whole thing. And that makes me really proud of myself of that I have done some things that have had real measurable changes in my health over the past couple of months. And it makes me feel very boss.

Kathleen Shannon 56:20

Oh, we need to do a whole episode on this too. This episode's about brainstorming all the other things we're going to talk about over the next few.

Emily Thompson 56:29

Right? What about you What's making you feel most boss?

Kathleen Shannon 56:32

Okay, so I took a quick trip down to Oklahoma City. I live in Detroit or in the suburbs of Detroit right now. And I took a quick trip to Oklahoma City for a client meeting a couple of weeks ago. And it made me feel so boss to just be able to fly in for a client meeting. It's been so long since I've done that because of COVID. And then I ended up having the best weekend ever on like a personal level with my sister and my brother and my dad and my parents and my dad taught me how to really use a slingshot. And I have been.

Emily Thompson 57:08

Such a Kathleen's skill to have. That is right up your alley.

Kathleen Shannon 57:13

I know. I know I'm gonna send you a Reel made on Instagram since you're not on Instagram anymore, but I am so into shooting a slingshot.

Emily Thompson 57:22

Yeah.

Kathleen Shannon 57:23

And so I mean the trip made me feel really boss and then like the meeting went really well. It was an annual planning session with a restaurant group that is one of my clients. And they own about like six or seven restaurants and so really getting into that was it felt so good. It felt so boss, but then you have a slingshot. I mean, real badass.

Emily Thompson 57:47

Of course it is. I love that congrats new new tool in your tool belt.

Kathleen Shannon 57:53

Literally. Literally in my tool belt.

Emily Thompson 57:58

All right, good end. Love that Kathleen.

Emily Thompson 58:05

All right, boss. Because you're here I know you want to be a better creative business owner, which means I've got something for you. Each week the team at Being Boss is scouring the news, the best entrepreneurial publications and updates and releases of the apps and tools that run our businesses and is curating it all into a weekly email that delivers the must know tips and tactics in the realms of mindset, money and productivity. This email is called Brewed. We brew it up for you each week to give you the insight you need to make decisions and move forward in your creative business. Check it out now and sign up for yourself at beingboss.club/brewed that's beingboss.club/brewed now until next time, do the work. Be boss.