Intentions for Small Business Success at Every Level with Kali Edwards

[00:00:00] Corey Winter: Hey there bosses! Corey from the Being Boss team here. I'm popping into let you know about a new way for you to stay up to date in the world as a creative entrepreneur, Brewed. Brewed is a weekly email curated by the Being Boss team just for you. We share articles, podcasts, and resources from around the internet on the topics of mindset, money and productivity to help

[00:00:21] you show up and do the work in your business. Learn more and sign up for free at beingboss.club/brewed. That's beingboss.club/B R E W E D.

[00:00:37] Emily Thompson: Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host, Emily Thompson. And today we're doing the opposite of going big with a conversation about intentionally keeping your business small and feeling good about it with my boss friend, web designer, Kali Edwards.

[00:00:59] You can find all the tools, books, and links. We referenced on the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to this show and share us with friend.

[00:01:11] Before we dive in bosses. I have a podcast for you to add to your queue. The Remarkable People Podcast hosted by Guy Kawasaki. Remarkable People helps you better understand the changing world with interviews from thought leaders, legends, and iconic class. Like Julia Cameron author of the artist's way, which I recently listened to as I continue to do my own artist way practice.

[00:01:33] And it added a whole new layer of appreciation for the process after listening to Julia's interview. So when you're done with this episode, head on over and listen to the remarkable people podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:52] Kali Edwards owns at June Mango Design, a creative studio that works with helpers, healers, and holistic brands. June Mango's sweet spot lies in the branding and web design process. Working with you to design, develop and launch a fully customized website in just five days with a Go Live in Five process, her designs have a unique ability to unearth emotions and ensure clients can deeply connect with their dream customers.

[00:02:18] Kali welcome to Being Boss. I'm so glad you were here.

[00:02:22] Kali Edwards: Yes! Thank you for having me.

[00:02:24] Emily Thompson: Of course. I was just saying that I love it when bosses, who I've known for a long time, get to come on the show and share more about what it is that you do. Cause I mean, obviously I love, you know, interviewing the Leigh Bardugo's and Alana Fairchild's of the world, but bosses make for really great conversations.

[00:02:42] Kali Edwards: Yes. I'm not quite that level. Right. We definitely have things to talk about.

[00:02:47] Emily Thompson: For sure. So to get us started, I want to introduce you to everyone. I'd love to hear your entrepreneurial story and how it is that you got really to what you're doing today.

[00:02:58] Kali Edwards: Yeah. So I, so. I worked many, nine to fives as several creative entrepreneurs probably have, and maybe still are who listen.

[00:03:07] I was working as an agency, art director, and I knew I wanted to start my own business. I also at the time was doing a lot of web design there and, you know, websites were taking just a ridiculous amount of time, like a year and a half. And so, as I was sort of thinking about starting my own business, and I knew I wanted to do design and branding and all those things, but I also was just having this feeling like, I just think I can

[00:03:33] do this better, even if it's, you know, anything less than a year and a half has to be better. That's just ridiculous. And this wasn't like 2014. So when I started June Mango, I also sort of launched my Go Live on Five process, which is sort of still what we're best known for today. And that's essentially where we build a website in five days.

[00:03:53] So we start on Monday and you go live and you're all launched and everything is done by Friday. So it's pretty fast. And at the time, that was, I mean, some people are doing it now and several people do it then maybe two weeks or something like that. But at the time people were kind of like, I'm sorry, what you're doing, you're doing what in five days.

[00:04:11] And really, it just comes out of, I always sort of say it's like, Your artsy friend married your type A friend. And they sort of had a business baby because it's sort of like just combines the things that I'm best at, where I'm very system and process oriented like you, and I'm also very creative and artsy and, you know, design oriented.

[00:04:30] So I can kind of combine those two things to create this very specific offering. That's actually really sort of helpful for people getting their website launched.

[00:04:40] Emily Thompson: So. And I did not re I don't even think I knew this part of your origin stories. So it's begging a question for me, which came first, June Mango, or go live in five.

[00:04:54] Kali Edwards: So June Mango is always first and I was kind of freelancing on the side again, as many people do and I started doing like wedding, stationery. In fact, I think that's how I found Kathleen to back in the day, cause she had like a blog about it or something. Right. So that's how I got probably even all the way forward now, here to talking to you and Being Boss and all the things.

[00:05:16] So I did start June Mango first, but, but go live in five, came like almost immediately after sort of wicked. Like once I actually launched the business in fall, quit my job and did all the things go live by was sort of hand-in-hand.

[00:05:31] Emily Thompson: So go live in five as a direct, sort of product of you quitting this agency job, where you had been spending a year and a half on size, and you were like, screw this guy.

[00:05:42] If I can do it in five days.

[00:05:44] Kali Edwards: I mean, I didn't know we were doing a lot of WordPress sites and it was just a very different thing and Squarespace was kind of new at the time. And I sort of learned how to use that platform, which is just a little easier and more intuitive. And so I didn't need to build this custom site.

[00:05:58] The ground up, which I know, you know, can, is that's a ton of work. I mean, you still do that. And that's just a different thing. So that's not what I'm doing. And it doesn't mean that, you know, there's not a place for that even now doing like a totally custom build. But for the clients that I wanted to work with and now work with mostly, you just, they just don't need that, that much customization.

[00:06:19] So we don't really need that much time.

[00:06:21] Emily Thompson: For sure. And what you're talking about too is, you know, early days of the internet, the people who were getting websites were not. Right. It wasn't mom and pops. It was Walmart, right. And Ford. And like, those kinds of people were, were, you know, investing in this new thing more or less, that is the internet and websites and all of those things.

[00:06:41] But then there was this wave of sort of no matter call us mom and pops, right. Because it's probably the most blanket term for. Please like mom and pop stores and shops and business owners or whatever who came in and wanted to do it, but didn't want to build a Ford website. We just needed a quick, easy something.

[00:06:59] But at one point the only option was to get a Ford website. Totally. So for anyone who's new, just like, think of that, think of those days, right? It's so easy to pop into a Squarespace site or a WordPress site or a Shopify site or whatever it is these days. But back in the day, those things weren't an option.

[00:07:19] And so it did take a long time and a lot of money, right. And a lot of like very serious skillsets to, to, get a website for yourself and. It sounds like you were making this transition in the time when that wasn't as necessary, but also it wasn't as well well-known. So what year did you make the transition from corporate into full-time June Mango and launching Go Live in Five.

[00:07:49] Kali Edwards: So that was 2014. So it's exactly that time, like you said, it was just in that sort of weird middle ground period where it wasn't like any old, anyone can sort of jump into Squarespace or Wix or whatever and make a site. And it was also like, most people still felt like they needed this full-blown web development

[00:08:09] situation. Right. So, so it wasn't that weird sweet spot of that for sure. And that's essentially what I've done is I've sort of just removed the development piece of it and we do a lot of customization. So you would never know that our sites you're on Squarespace. It doesn't look template at all, but I'm not, again, I'm not sitting there building everything from the ground up, putting JavaScript and all these, like, you know, fancy web

[00:08:31] development things.

[00:08:32] Emily Thompson: Yeah, for sure. I remember this time in, in my own like website, You know, website development journey. So well too. I remember having a conversation with David about how I was in websites at such a magical time. Right. Cause I, I think the bulk of what I was doing was between 2010 and 20 15, 20 16. So very sort of similar timeframe when all of these platforms were coming out that made building a website, quote, unquote easier.

[00:09:02] And really there's no quota that like it legit was easier. It wasn't easy, but it was easier to build websites for, you know, small businesses. And there were so few of us. Who could do it and could do it well. And I remember an even, you know, post 2008, like everyone was trying to figure out a thing for themselves and starting their own business and all of these things.

[00:09:28] I remember that being such a golden age of being a web designer on the internet. So I love that. I love that you were joining in at about that time too, because it was, it was such a special time in such a really great time to get into. And learn how the internet worked and how to build websites and, you know, to really connect with and create these communities of small business owners online.

[00:09:54] I loved that period of time in my career for sure, because I knew I was there when something really special was happening.

[00:10:02] Kali Edwards: Yeah, for sure. And it's a, it's a unique thing. And as you know, web design is not, it's not the easiest. Graphic design to do. There's a lot of things that can make that a hard process from a tech standpoint, from even a client standpoint.

[00:10:18] So it's definitely, it's still. Even now, like with all the easy customizations and platforms you can use, it's sort of, I think that's sort of why actually there's been some longevity to the live in five processes because it's, it actually is so much more about the process than it is about, the web design in the, I mean, of course they're getting website and it's beautiful and it's functional, but it's also a lot about what they're getting from me as

[00:10:43] the person communicating with them, helping them clarifying things for them, because there's just so much that goes into it. That not everybody is going to know how to do. And again, that could be tech stuff. Like, I don't even know where my domain name is. And or it could be, or it could be something like getting your content ready.

[00:11:05] And how does that work? And what does that look like and what do I need and how much time do I need and when do I need it by, I mean, there's all these sort of questions that we've tried really hard to answer for people. So the clarity is sort of like are, is actually sort of like our biggest sort of asset.

[00:11:19] Emily Thompson: Yeah. And I mean, it's for the web design realm too. That's so important because I mean, how many people have been burned by a web designer?

[00:11:28] Kali Edwards: I mean, truly people, I just did a website for someone and she was just distraught and she was almost in tears because she had just had this horrible experience. And so that happens all the time where people come to us and say, she, you know, this web designer disappeared on me or they left me with this thing that I can't edit.

[00:11:45] All of these problems that can sort of arise. And then we end up being kind of the handy, fix it person who comes in afterwards and cleans everything up.

[00:11:53] Emily Thompson: Right. So yes, that and our processes have to be so on-point right. That we're making them feel good and really even sort of healing their PTSD around the whole process while we're at it.

[00:12:05] It's a whole thing, whole thing, everybody. Okay, so you launched GoLive and five in 2014. It is now 2022. It's been eight years since you've done this. Tell me a little bit about what has happened in those eight years.

[00:12:22] Kali Edwards: So, you know, for the most part, I've just been this one moment show and that's been pretty intentional.

[00:12:27] And really, I haven't changed a lot of. My offerings are, there's been a few, you know, I'm a creative. So I sometimes decide, oh, I'm going to launch this course, or I'm going to do this thing sort of that's outside a little bit. But for the most part, really what we mostly do is branding and web design.

[00:12:45] And that's pretty much it. And if people need packaging and things like that, we kind of had that all in our tool belt. To help them round out their project. But for the most part, I've tried to stay really close and tight with that. These are the things that we do. This is our sweet spot, and this is how we can help you.

[00:13:00] And that that's, what's allowed us to grow in terms of the clients and the things that we do, but also stay sort of small because we don't necessarily, we're not expanding if that makes sense.

[00:13:15] Emily Thompson: Yeah. How have you, how have you reconciled that in your sort of creative slash entrepreneurial brain? Right? Like you've made these conscious decisions and I, and I've had the pleasure of seeing them be conscious decisions.

[00:13:30] I've also had the pleasure of seeing you. Maybe wonder what it would be like, right. To do something else or try something else or grow it. But you, you always stay true to what it is that you're doing. And I'm w I'm wondering what that thought process is like, or even like what mindset maybe you have that allow you to, to stay in this space.

[00:13:52] Kali Edwards: Yeah. I think it's so many things, honestly, so it could be like a six part answer, but I, you know, one of the things is that I. I do like to flush out the ideas which I've done with you. And I often will give myself a lot of space to build the idea and then sit on it for a little while because the other thing that will happen is as long as I do actually sit on it for a little while.

[00:14:17] I can then decide, frankly, I have like project DDD. So if I get tired and I don't want to do it anymore, then I, you know, it's fine. It's not. And I had this idea. I, I put a little effort into it. It was sort of fun, but I D I didn't actually in the end, want to chase it down. I realized it was hard. If I still want to do it, then that's something that, okay, well now maybe I'll pursue.

[00:14:40] So that's. That's sort of how I've kept myself from running after all these ideas that I do have. And then the other thing I think is in terms of those mindsets, I think a scarcity mindset shift is a huge one. So just sort of thinking about coming from a place of. Rather than scarcity and fear about whatever it is not having enough money or not having enough clients or anything related to that.

[00:15:12] Just sort of like actually having this mindset of enoughness. So this is enough. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to make piles and piles of cash. I don't need to go buy a Lamborghini. I just want to kind of pay my bills. And work, you know, a handful of hours that then I can have a few left over to hang out with my kiddos.

[00:15:31] You know what I mean? So it's sort of like changing that, mindset. And I think the other thing I would say about that is maybe going back even further and sort of redefining success and what success looks like to you because, you know, in our culture, it's sort of like success is. Piles of cash or fame or notoriety, or just sort of bigness in this way where you've done all these things.

[00:15:56] You have all this clout. And I think it's, we can redefine success personally by literally sort of asking yourself. So what it means to you. Versus what society says it should mean, then that can actually kind of give us a good guide for then how we're going to set up our business. So again, success for me looks like not working 40 hours a week.

[00:16:16] Success for me, looks like my kid being home because of COVID protocols and me being able to actually take care of them and not be stressed out. I'm making some money and I live in DC, so it's an expensive city, so it's not, you know, but just enough to live comfortably. So those are the things that make me feel success.

[00:16:34] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay. I want to back up maybe just a little bit, because what we are here to talk about is this decision that you've made all along the way for eight years, right. To stay small. And so you just sort of gave us a couple of a couple of, of things that have helped you sort of accomplish that.

[00:16:57] And I'm wondering if any of these really stand out for the answer to this question, or if you have something else completely, but like, but why, why have you chosen to stay small?

[00:17:06] Kali Edwards: Yeah, that's a funny question because it's sort of an obvious one and I, I, the answer I want to give you is. Is because it's allowed because you're allowed to stay small.

[00:17:18] It's okay. You know, it's sort of like, again, it's sort of thinking about what matters to you. Like just does the thing that mattered to you most that you have enough time to spend with your family or that you want to go on vacation a lot or whatever. Like, what are those things? What are those values? And then just knowing that that's okay.

[00:17:38] So you, you are allowed to stay small and business. You don't have to hire a team if you don't want to, or if it doesn't align with sort of your bigger life goals. And I do sort of think about for me personally, I really think about business in this holistic way, which I know is such a buzzy word, but what I mean by that is like, It's, you know, your life has sort of an ecosystem and your business is only one part of that.

[00:18:05] So, so everything is sort of informing everything else. So my, my, my relationships are informing my, my work and my business, which is informing my leisure time, which is informing everything else. Right. So how does it kind of all work together? And as long as I'm sort of thinking about all of these parts together, I can kind of create the business that fits into my life rather than the other way around.

[00:18:30] Emily Thompson: I, yeah, it's all, all of those things are so important. I really love this aspect of like, it is just allowed because I think that anyone who's in the sphere of creative entrepreneurship or especially entrepreneurship without the creative side to it, or any of those things, you see the lamb bows, right.

[00:18:46] Which are literally the most impractical car on the planet.

[00:18:50] Kali Edwards: Right.

[00:18:52] Emily Thompson: Or, or, you know, or any. Example of more right. Of like, and you should want more or you're not doing it. Right. And so I love that. You're saying that that's not true because it's not true and you can be an entrepreneur and a business owner and still want to stay small.

[00:19:13] And I think this is a really relevant conversation to be had here a couple of weeks ago, I was hosting one of the Monday meetups in the Being Boss community. And I can't remember what the topic of conversation was, but I remember asking the crowd, you know, in the, in the zoom room, there's probably two dozen plus of us in there.

[00:19:34] Show of hands for who has. And I think maybe one person held up their hand, right? Because the majority of bosses of you all listening, don't have a team. Maybe you have a virtual assistant, or similar, but you don't have a team. Many of you don't want one. And most of you probably think you're doing something wrong because you feel that way.

[00:20:03] And you're not, you're totally not. You can build a business that is just your business, that gives you what you want and need. And that is totally allowed. So I love that you have just very clearly and plainly said, Yeah. And

[00:20:18] Kali Edwards: I think, you know, even to play a little bit of devil's advocate, because of course, like I said, I was a one-woman show for a long time and now I'm not, but you can, there is still a middle ground too, so you don't have to necessarily be.

[00:20:32] A solopreneur or have a team of five people. You, like you said, you could have a virtual assistant, which is just, maybe works as a contractor or you could work with other contractors for what we've done is I've hired, one employee. So I have one employee and then I have a virtual assistant. And that for me is actually the perfect size for sort of what has changed in how we have sort of grown and.

[00:20:58] But grown and sort of almost grown from my needs rather than grown and sort of scale. If that makes sense. I guess I just needed some extra help. I wanted to delegate the things that would free up my time so that I could do more of what I wanted to do, what I was good at doing. So I could rest more. All of those

[00:21:17] Emily Thompson: things.

[00:21:19] Right. All of those things are really great measures of just like general human success that you can do all of these things. And not that toxic entrepreneurship that I see too much of, that I don't think is correct. And I love also that you brought up holistic a minute ago. One of the things that I've been talking about, in the.

[00:21:40] At, in the Being Boss Community, which is like a mastermind group of six plus figure bosses. We've sort of coined this phrase. We talk about all the time and it really helps us like center ourselves in whatever conversation we're having, to bring in what we feel is like one of the most boss' mindsets we can.

[00:21:59] And then as this idea of holistic capitalism. Interesting. Right? So not even just holistic business, which I there, and I love that it is a buzzword because it should be like, we should be thinking about things significantly more holistically than we do in every way, shape or form. So buzz the hell out of it.

[00:22:21] Please do. Cause we should all be onsidering everything a little more holistically. But there is this, there is this wider view that we have to take when we're building our business and our lives and all of these things. And not only how they affect us, but how they affect the people who, are giving us money.

[00:22:41] So our clients and customers, the people that we're working with, our vendors or contractors or employees, and what it means in the place where we live. Right. Or, you know, in the places in the internet where we're operating or whatever it may be. So I really, I love that you brought that up because that is something that is very much so top of mind, and I think is significantly more easy to achieve when you are intentionally staying small.

[00:23:09] Right. Because you're able to like really make sure that all the things are working.

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[00:25:04] Okay. So you've shared why you are, have chosen to stay small, all beautiful reasons. Thank you. I'm sure you've also chosen this, but because of some very clear benefits to you and probably your team and your customers, I'm wondering what those are. Like, what benefits are you cashing in on by staying small?

[00:25:28] Kali Edwards: Yeah, I think, well, okay. One of the things you actually already touched on, which is it's just simpler, you know, and that's okay. You don't have to manage a team. You didn't have to manage, you know, you have two businesses, which is incredible. But that would make me pretty tired. It's got a Luxe. Exactly.

[00:25:51] So, you know, in some ways it's just simpler and that again, and again, since we were just talking about the holistic thing for me, I’m in this sort of season of growing my family. And so I need a little more time away from my business in order to have time with all these people in my household. That's part of it too.

[00:26:13] I need the, I need a lot of energy to actually not be put into my business right now. And that doesn't mean that that can't change. But again, just for me right now, that's sort of where I am. So that's, that's a simple and obvious benefit. The other benefit that I have found with June Mango is just that I am able to.

[00:26:34] Kind of keep myself really involved in the business. And by doing that, I'm able to make sure that my clients are getting the actual best, best of me and sort of best service that they can possibly get. So. But being able to sort of not pull yourself all the way back. And if you have a large team and you're training people and you know, hopefully in theory, you've trained them

[00:26:56] well. They're doing a wonderful job too, but staying small has allowed me to kind of keep my foot in the door, so to speak and make sure that I really making sure that the business is going and growing and doing all the things that I want it to do, and that all my clients are really happy and I'm giving them that I really personal sort of one-on-one experience that is really valuable.

[00:27:17] And I actually sort of what I was saying in the beginning. I actually think that that is a lot of where our value, lives in the services we're offering. So yes, we'll build you a beautiful website, but really, it's almost like we're having web therapy or something, you know, it's, I am here for you. And I couldn't do that if we had, if I was sort of just this high level sort of CEO.

[00:27:39] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Right.And What I shifted my mindset from, I think, most again, of what we hear of like, you know, pull yourself out of your business. And, and I think there's a place for that. I, a hundred percent thing. There's a place for that. That's one of the things that I even see myself doing. I am doing both of those things right now.

[00:27:58] I'm pulling myself out of a lot of the day-to-day at Being Boss, because I am putting myself into Almanac in a way that I'm seeing the benefits that you're talking about, too. I love being in our shop and our customers know that whenever they come and deal with me, they are dealing with the owner, right? Not some like, not someone else who we have other people too.

[00:28:19] But there is something that comes to the value that you bring to your process and your customers that is so much more valuable when it's you doing it because you're the one who's breathing the life into your business. So I'm really appreciating you sharing this sort of this other aspect of it. And the simplicity piece too.

[00:28:45] I especially think that if you have a highly complex process, so a whole website and five days, right. Or maybe you're a PR agency, right? Who's like touching lots of things as you are providing the services to your customers or, or any sort of process that is complex, I think is better served when you otherwise keep the operations small and having, that's why, you know, you do see people with these highly specialized services who are able to charge.

[00:29:19] 10 20, $30,000 for the theme. Cause they're only working with three people and those three people are getting insanely great attention from the person who is providing the service. There are so many benefits all over the board that come from staying small. And it doesn't mean that you're not making money, right.

[00:29:38] That you're not profitable. I would also much rather see a boss business making $80,000 in total revenue with a profit of 20, 30, 40 K, then a boss who's making 400,000 who's in the hole every year. Right there is like, Two different businesses. They're the one that's making less is actually the better business

[00:30:04] if you're just looking at numbers.

[00:30:06] Kali Edwards: Yeah. And I was just going to say, even thinking about that hiring thing again, it's, you know, you can, you can, it doesn't mean that you still have to wear all the hats, right. So you can just be doing that one super specific process driven thing where you that's literally all you're doing any maybe hire

[00:30:22] your assistant or whatever else it is, to take on your bookkeeping. And every other thing that you obviously have to, to deal with as a business owner. So you, so you don't have to remove yourself unless you want to. But if you do, if you love doing this particular process or whatever it is, or you, you know, you knit and you are the one who wants to just be the actual creative and using your hands, and that's the whole reason you started it in the first place.

[00:30:46] Then maybe you hire out for all the rest of the things. So you can just be the one who's knitting the hats for the business.

[00:30:52] Emily Thompson: Right? Oh, good one. And right in same. So similarly at Being Boss, one of the things that I told the team, literally just this morning, was I just want to come in and be a really great podcaster.

[00:31:03] Yeah. I want to have so much energy for recording these shows and not like second wave energy. Cause I already spent six hours doing all the other things that I, you know, quote unquote need to do, but I want to be able to come in here and like do this shit great. Yeah. Or whatever it is. There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:31:19] Kali Edwards: Yeah. And again, and this is the perfect place to talk about it and get real Lulu, but it is an energy thing. Right. So we owe. They only have so much energy at any given time. So really that's part of it too, is just deciding where the hell do you want this energy to go?

[00:31:36] Emily Thompson: Yeah, for sure. Okay. So there's some really good benefits to saying small and intentionally staying small, right?

[00:31:42] You are putting your energy exactly where you want it to be. You are hiring the couple of people who are going to help you and just the places that you need and you are staying small so that the process that you have for delivering whatever it is that you're delivering to your client or customer is so on point each and every time.

[00:32:01] Those are really great benefits, which, and every one of those, for sure. But I would imagine the comparison trap is real, real. So as you were like intentionally staying small, but scrolling Instagram or listening to podcasts or whatever it may be, how are you dealing. Like, how do you continue to stay small?

[00:32:24] Kali Edwards: Yeah. Well, first of all, find me someone who doesn't get stuck in the comparison trap. And I would like to get them settled. Brown has this great quote. I even have it, I won't read the whole thing, but she says the comparison is like, it's, it literally says be like everyone else would be better, which is like, that's exactly what it is.

[00:32:44] It's the most ridiculous thing because it's just not possible. So I think it's sort of. You are either following your inner compass or you're following a map. And if you're following a map, you're going to be going where someone else has already been. And then maybe that's fine. So sort of best case scenario, you will do the thing that this other person has done and do it pretty well or well enough, and that's okay if you're following your inner compass, you are going to go where you need to go.

[00:33:14] And that is going to be the thing that makes you stand out. Right? So you just, you sort of can't. You just can't stand out. If you're doing what everyone else is doing, it's just not possible. And you know, when you start out and you're sort of a baby boss, sometimes it's nice to just have the map just to get you going.

[00:33:29] And that's totally okay. But I think. Just sort of understanding who you are, what you need, what you're good at is actually a great pace, a great place to, to sort of come from. And the other thing I would say, I like to call it the myth of your mentors. And what I mean by that is that we see all these things on Instagram or anywhere else.

[00:33:52] Right. Or what's like Sarah of the six-figure launch. And she's like telling you how she did this wonderful, amazing course launch. And she made hundreds of thousands of dollars, which she did. And it's incredible. But Sarah of the six-figure launch. Probably started with a different goal. And she probably created this course because that was actually the best way to serve her clients.

[00:34:14] And she had this super specific expertise and she sort of combined all of these things that were really coming from her insides. But all we're seeing are her outsides, which is the end result of the six phase. Launch. Right. So that's sort of what I mean, but when I say the myth of your mentors or you see people who have the jillions of Instagram followers and you think you need that.

[00:34:36] So if we can kind of step back and know that there's a lot of stuff that went into that and not just work, but, but real like, I don't know, like her guts to say not necessarily doing the work, but, but having this other goal of, okay, I have this excellent expertise. And how do I share that with these people who really need it?

[00:35:02] Who I know I'm really good at serving,

[00:35:04] Emily Thompson: right? The goal was serving. Right. So the goal was like really, truly serving the person or people that you were there to serve what she ends up selling as a six-figure launch, like to someone else later. Right. And so in that six figure launch, you might be touching on the importance of service, but really she said, I didn't fire a person.

[00:35:24] How can you like help them? And then do this, this, this, this, and this. And then today you should have it. Oh, you don't because she forgot to truly explain the essence of that desire to serve. Exactly,

[00:35:37] Kali Edwards: exactly. And I think again, If you're thinking about the things that you're good. It's like I was saying in the beginning, sort of, I am a narcissistic person and I'm also really good at systems and processes.

[00:35:48] So when I combine those two things, I get this sort of magic bullet, which is the go live in five process. But there are a lot of other things that I'm not so good at doing. I'm really, really bad at launching courses. For example, I can't launch, I can't like do marketing strategies. I am just not good at that.

[00:36:04] So you could, I could follow her whole set up for the six figure launch. I would probably make like $1 that's. Okay. It's just not for me now. That's sort of.

[00:36:16] Emily Thompson: Yeah, for sure. I also, there's also this S it's in here. You mentioned it earlier, that I think is a really great way that you have been able to stay true to this thing that you were here to do what you found, the way that you can do it.

[00:36:30] And that is that you are sort of testing and changing other things, right? You are absolutely following the shiny object, sometimes creating the thing, doing the thing, but then also being so mindful of. Of the time that you need to take to see if it's real or not. Right. So you're not like starving your creative urges by any means.

[00:36:52] You aren't, you know, not exploring you're doing those things, but you're also. One of the things that I see bosses do creatives in particular do all the time is still just pivot that business model at the drop of a hat. As often as they see us shiny object, which like, if you're in target is everywhere, which I love, but like, you know, like you're honoring it, but you're also not redefining your entire business.

[00:37:21] Every time you have an idea, you have developed a process for yourself for. Seeing if it's a good enough ideas. And if you're actually going to be able to buy into it, see if you're actually going to be able to follow through and then either you'll do it, or you.

[00:37:34] Kali Edwards: Yes. And I mean, I'm human I've, I've done the thing and tried to follow that, like you said, the shiny object, but otherwise, I wouldn't know.

[00:37:41] I was so bad at launching things because I've tried to do that, but I'm not good at that. And it doesn't actually serve it. Doesn't help me serve people in the way I want.

[00:37:50] Emily Thompson: And now, you know, And you would not have known if you hadn't done it a time or two. Right? So, so this isn't about like, even, you know, we always talk, you know, growing big and, you know, doing the thing, whatever, you know, becoming a, whatever, like it has its dips and, you know, abs and flows.

[00:38:07] It's like mountains and valleys, but like soda staying small, like you're going to go through the exact same windy entrepreneurial entrepreneurial. If you decide to stay small, that you do whatever you are big or whenever you are growing something big. And it's funny, I keep saying small and big as a fair, like I actually, I wondering how you define the difference between staying small and letting yourself grow big.

[00:38:40] Kali Edwards: Yeah. That's that is interesting. I mean, I almost think it comes back to that energy thing again where it's like, It's sort of what I was saying about being in this season of growth for my family, where I just don't have the energy to let my business expand and take so much space. And [00:39:00] that's sort of how I would define it because I do think because we have seen growth, like I said, I have hired people, I have done some of these things, but ultimately we're still sort of doing.

[00:39:12] The same thing we're sort of showing up in the same way we were showing up in 2014, I'm showing up in a lot of the same ways. So I think that's sort of the way I see it. And, and maybe to grow big would mean maybe one example from my personal business would be, if I was going to teach people how to do the go live in five process or something, and then that would.

[00:39:38] I don't know, it would like blue mountain to this bigger space where, then everyone else is doing it. And then that's like a whole separate thing. And so the GoLive and five process grows in that way, but that's not really what I have wanted to do. So in that way, that again, sort of feels small to me where it's, it's still mine still sort of just within June mango.

[00:39:57] Emily Thompson: The thing that's coming to mind for me, as you're saying this, because I'm resonating with all of that as well. Is this idea, I feel like it's grown, quote unquote. When you've lost touch with an aspect of something in your life or business, because of. So it makes sense. So if you were to scale, go live in five to teach other people, you then lose touch with that process and how it's being delivered to another customer or client.

[00:40:23] Right. Still a great idea. If you ever want to do that, let's talk, but like that is a, like, that is a growing big step. If it's not part of your goal does not let you achieve what you want to achieve, choosing not to and designed to stay small. Great for you. Love that. Similarly, you know, there's like a essence of, growing a team.

[00:40:48] I will never forget the interview that we did with David Heinemeier Hansson co-founder of Base Camp. Co-founder of Base Camp and the first hundred episodes of Being Boss. If you go to the show notes, we'll include a link or just like search it in the feed. When he was talking about growing base camp and how he always wanted it to stay small.

[00:41:09] And I remember, I think it was Kathleen asked him, well, like how many people are on the team now. And he was like, I dunno, 50 something. He didn't even know everyone's name anymore. And now, there was a point in him growing that team, that it went big and he lost touch with the people who worked for him.

[00:41:27] And again, not a bad thing. They've gone on to like build some amazing products that have allowed people to, you know, do cool things. I've also been a little problematic here or there, but that's another, that's another conversation. But, there is this like out of touchness that I think becomes, a part of it for good or bad, for sure.

[00:41:51] That is associated with, I don't know how I feel like we're having this conversation between staying small and, you know, keeping her naturally keeping her fingers in all the pies. Like you may not do your own bookkeeping, right. There is like a little bit of out of touch. But it's not like this big part of your business that you were no longer in touch with.

[00:42:11] Kali Edwards: Well, it's like, it's grown bigger than you, right? That's almost, that's sort of another way to think about it. It's growing bigger than you. It's sort of, he's grown, it's grown so big that he can't know everyone who works for him. And again, that's not a bad thing. It's just, it's grown too big for him to manage it in that way to sort of be involved in that way.

[00:42:29] Emily Thompson: And maybe to get out of it, even what he wants.

[00:42:33] Something to consider so many good things here. Oh, you got, I think that that leaves us in a place where everyone can think about what it looks like to, to stay small for themselves to be engaged in exactly the ways they want to. And if growing bigger, right, to think bigger for something that you offer for the business that you run is something that you want.

[00:42:56] I was like flip side of this. I have big plans for Almanac over the next couple of years, for sure. I'm totally fine with state getting out of touch. Right. Then couple of things.

[00:43:10] Kali Edwards: Just to be clear, that is fine. Right? There's nothing wrong with being big. It's just that I'm saying there's also nothing wrong with small.

[00:43:17] Emily Thompson: Indeed. Right. It's just choosing the path that is right for you and the business that you are building. Okay. You did mention a couple of times though, because those are just like continuing this definition of small versus big, you do have people working for you. What does that, what is your team look like?

[00:43:33] Kali Edwards: So right now I have a virtual assistant and she is wonderful.

[00:43:37] And she's been with me for maybe three or four years. And she is a contractor. And so she does a lot of the detailed things that either I'm not super detail oriented. That's one of the things, again, that. Sort of, I'm better at again, this sort of interpersonal relationship and design and all those things.

[00:43:57] So she kind of keeps the details in check. She also does the things that I just don't like to do that much, which is totally fine. And then I've recently hired, a designer and another designer just, just to help me again, to sort of allow me to step back from my business because I was so in it, I was so sort of lost in my inbox.

[00:44:17] It was so sort of getting stuck in all of the day-to-day management of the business that I wasn't able to be a little high level, you know, just, I wanted to be able to think about my business and marketing and what does, what do I want this to look like still in, And that sort of growth and expansion way that you can still achieve, obviously, even when you're small.

[00:44:38] And so she helps with our web design, she's an incredible designer. And then she does, she basically kind of picks up the slack in terms of anything else that we need, or if there's sort of, you know, for example, if we've done a branding project and then they need a lot of assets that come after that, right.

[00:44:56] So it'll be like packaging, or you might need your brochures, your business cards and things like that. So she helps a lot with sort of those, sort of secondary designs.

[00:45:06] Emily Thompson: Nice, perfect. And that first step that for most creatives that I know is like, Probably max management.

[00:45:17] Kali Edwards: I think the worth noting is that it does change your role when you hire someone.

[00:45:23] My roles have changed and shifted, of course. And now I'm in this sort of managerial spot and a lot of ways, and, and that's also not for everybody. So not everybody, this happens in sort of the corporate world a lot, right. Where people get promoted to manager because they're just good at their job, whatever they were doing before.

[00:45:39] They might not actually be a good manager. You might have just been really good at whatever their actual previous job was. So it doesn't mean that you hire someone in minutes off hunky Dory, maybe you're, you know, you may not even want to be a manager.

[00:45:52] Emily Thompson: Right. In which case understand that about yourself and your business.

[00:45:56] It is also possible to hire people who are really great self managers, right? Those people do exist a hundred percent. But in general, once you hire, you're managing it to some extent you are managing. And I know that that is the reason why some bosses choose to stay like incredibly micro-business because they do.

[00:46:16] I just pulled this up. I couldn't remember exactly what the number is and it's because it's not very clearly defined. But depending on the industry, a small business is one that employs up to one source says 250 employees and others is 1500 employees. Wow. Right. Every, every boss has close your eyes for a second and imagine having 1500 people working for you really.

[00:46:42] Right. And I think that most of us never want to be in that situation. Some of us may, and I love that for you. But most of us. I am even in a place where 250 isn't necessarily, I don't think what I want to build, with what I'm doing. But I always consider this idea of micro business, right? These like businesses that are so tiny, right.

[00:47:04] One employee yourself, or two, five, even 10 employees, even like 15, 20, I think in the world of, you know, bigger business is a micro business. And I think whenever we are in this place, we're so much more able to stay agile and to stay connected to our employees. Right to, to do these really, these really great things with what it is that we do.

[00:47:30] And maybe I should bring on some, like, you know, other bigger, small business bosses and be like, how do you feel about your team? Your work-life balance.

[00:47:41] Kali Edwards: Yeah. I would be really curious. And maybe it's just, again, it's like a personality thing or just that energy thing. So again, it just, all for me, it comes back to what is it that you want, but do you want, you know.

[00:47:53] Emily Thompson: Sure.

[00:47:54] And what do you want to be doing all day legit because you plan higher for those things as well. Perfect. I think my sort of last question that I have for you is a little bit around. Maybe just like overarching boundaries. Cause you've mentioned, you know, small team family does sort of division between life and work and how your energy needs to be supported in one.

[00:48:16] So you can deliver in the other, et cetera. What are your boundaries look like? How are you managing this like mindset around staying small and doing the work and achieving it all in a way that feels successful to you?

[00:48:32] Kali Edwards: Yeah, I think this is something that I've really had to work on both in life and business, and I'm much better at it in business than in life now, had to do a lot of therapy around it, and then I work with a lot of therapists, so it's just perfectly circle.

[00:48:47] But you know, boundaries really are about defining what your needs are. So that's sort of the place to start. So we're thinking about what is it that I need, do I need a morning schedule that allows me, you know, to take time to meditate and run and not check my emails until 10:30 in the morning, or, or do I need to make sure that in terms of my process, that I need content from you by X day, otherwise we can not start on Monday.

[00:49:17] Right? So that's sort of a boundary too. So it's, it's thinking about the needs and then you're sort of creating the rules around those needs. So again, if I need time with my family, Maybe I need specific hours. And so I do have very specific hours, for example, that way I can go pick up my kid from school and I can be with him from 4:00 PM and on, and you know, I'm not gonna answer emails past that time.

[00:49:43] So part of it is figuring out the needs then creating the rules and then just communicating them really confidently. And I think that that's probably actually the hardest part and takes a little practice, but people really want to know what to expect from you. And that's again true in life and in business.

[00:50:01] And I think that a lot of times, especially when we start businesses, it can feel maybe as women too, this probably goes into a whole sort of gendered conversation, but I think women tend to be more people pleasing types. And so it's harder sometimes for us to say, oh, no, I can't help you with this right now.

[00:50:19] Or I'm afraid that you won't like. Which sort of in business translates to like, maybe you won't work with me and that can feel really scary. So sort of understanding that you deserve to have those boundaries. And not only that people do appreciate whenever they know what to expect, so they appreciate knowing, okay, your content is due by X day.

[00:50:40] Otherwise this affects your project and that would be bad for you. You know, you'd be disappointed if we couldn't move slower. So that's why I'm communicating this boundary. For

[00:50:49] Emily Thompson: example. Yeah. I also love that way. You've just sort of explained here is how, you know, earlier we were talking about one of the benefits of staying incredibly small is the fact that you can build really amazing processes for the thing that you deliver.

[00:51:02] So it's so easy or streamlined or whatever. And what you're talking about is like, obviously getting those a lockdown, right? Knowing exactly what those are, and then letting the, that, that importance of process flow into your life as well. And how the. Create boundaries for you to show up in the ways that you need to get the job done.

[00:51:23] Kali Edwards: Exactly.

[00:51:24] Emily Thompson: Yeah, perfect. Well, Kali, this has been a treat, have a conversation. I knew it would be. I'm so glad to have been able to witness so much of your journey and to just see you have, you know, considered expansions and, in places, and to always come back to this thing that you do and you do so well.

[00:51:46] And to now be here going, you know what? I have stayed small and I'm effing owning it. And here's what it looks and feels like to do it. So I appreciate you coming in having this conversation

[00:51:56] with me.

[00:51:57] Kali Edwards: Yeah. Well, thank you for letting me come and [00:52:00] give the other sort of side and perspective for, for a minute.

[00:52:03] I really appreciate it.

[00:52:04] Emily Thompson: For sure. And if anyone wants to follow you or work with you, where do they find you on the internet?

[00:52:10] Kali Edwards: Yes, so we are at junemango.com. And then I'm pretty, another boundary I have is not being on that much social media or anywhere else. Cause it makes me a little tired. So the only other place you can really find us is on Instagram at June Mango studio.

[00:52:24] And that's it.

[00:52:26] Emily Thompson: Perfect. Thanks so much. And that my last question for you, what's making you feel most boss?

[00:52:33] Kali Edwards: Yes. You know, we were just talking before we sort of officially started recording about COVID and how it's bananas right now. And I'm in DC, which is just the worst spot for it. So the thing making me feel most boss is that,

[00:52:46] no matter how many times my kiddo has to stay home from school because of somebody else has COVID. I don't have to freak out and wonder how I'm going to manage my business and what's going to happen and is everything going to get done. But I feel really confident that I have all of these things in place that it's going to be fine, and I can hang out with him for a couple of days and nothing's going to burn to the ground.

[00:53:08] Emily Thompson: For sure. You and all of our boss friends have been able to weather this storm. I think more who dare I say easily, then anyone I know who has a real job.

[00:53:22] Kali Edwards: Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. It's like, and this is such a tangent, but I remember everybody getting on zoom and being like, wait, what is this zoom thing?

[00:53:29] And you know, we've been on zoom for, for forever. It's like we already kind of had had these things that we knew how to do this already.

[00:53:37] Emily Thompson: For sure. We've been preparing for this our entire lives, but I was still wasn't prepared.

[00:53:44] Kali Edwards: In some ways, not in all ways. Right.

[00:53:47] Emily Thompson: For sure, for sure. I know in, for us and you know, our employees do I feel like, that is quite boss.

[00:53:54] I, I share that boss feeling with you. I'm glad that that is making you continue to feel boss to these later.

[00:54:02] Kali Edwards: Yeah.

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