Making Imperfect Decisions with Erica Courdae & Tasha L. Harrison

[00:00:00] Emily Thompson: Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners, and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host, Emily Thompson, and in this episode I'm talking with my friends Tasha Harrison and Erica Courdae about making decisions that are not in total alignment with your values.

[00:00:19] You can find all the tools, books, and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to this show and share us with friend.

[00:00:32] All right, bosses. It's time to add another podcast to your queue. Let me introduce you to The Shine Online, hosted by Natasha, brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Natasha recently did an episode, I know so many of you will want to make a mad dash for as it's become a common topic in the Being Boss Community.

[00:00:53] It's called Why You're Burned Out on Social Media and a Solution. And if that's not your jam, Natasha's interviews and conversations about entrepreneurship, mental health and the art of shining online will certainly have something to fit your fancy. Learn more and listen to The Shine Online wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:14] Erica Courdae is a trusted advisor to entrepreneurs and executive teams committed to shifting focus, power and resources in order to create more equity in their business and the world. She's a certified coach and co-host of the Pause on the Play podcast. Tasha L. Harrison is a romance author and creator of the #20kin5Days Writing Challenge and Word Makers, a writing community where authors come together to do the writing work.

[00:01:42] Both Tasha and Erica have been guests here on Being Boss a number of times in the past, both together and separately to catch up on them and their stories, check out their previous appearances in the show notes for this episode at beingboss.club. Y'all hope this show is not a mess.

[00:01:59] Tasha L. Harrison: We say this before we record every single time.

[00:02:02] Emily Thompson: I know.

[00:02:02] Tasha L. Harrison: You know that.

[00:02:03] Emily Thompson: I know. It's, It's gonna be great. It's gonna be. Welcome, that is our cold entry into this episode. Uh, we have been sitting here already for 10 minutes just shooting the shit and I was like, y'all, we have to do this. We have to do this cause we have to this and we have to have like a kind of serious conversation.

[00:02:20] Can we do that today?

[00:02:22] Tasha L. Harrison: I guess. If we must.

[00:02:25] Erica Courdae: It it is. We are capable of doing such things. We can do big things.

[00:02:30] Emily Thompson: We can. We can do hard things. We can do hard things. Uh, mostly I feel like I don't wanna have a hard conversation today, but I'm here to do it. Let's do it. We are here to talk about making hard decisions, through the lens of our values, which should be a really interesting one. I know, Erica, you do a lot of work in the space of values in your DEI coaching that you do. We do it a lot here at being Boss. Tasha's like. What are you doing?

[00:03:02] Erica Courdae: Tasha ain't doing nothing if it ain't values aligned. She's like, I, I just won't.

[00:03:05] Emily Thompson: Indeed, she just lives it.

[00:03:06] Tasha L. Harrison: Factual , actual factual.

[00:03:11] Emily Thompson: It's just living it. It's just living it. So I knew I was gonna have another conversation with the two of you. I got on Marco Polo and I was like, Hey, what do you wanna talk about? And Erica's always like, going there. All the way going there. Was like, why don't we have this conversation about making hard decisions through the lens of your values?

[00:03:27] And I was like, heard. Tasha ?

[00:03:32] Tasha L. Harrison: Do we wanna do this and can we talk about something fun?

[00:03:35] Emily Thompson: And Tasha was ready for it. So here we are having this chat. This is something that. Comes up, I mean, if you are in business, if actually screw business, if you are showing up and doing things outside of your comfort zone, if you are interacting with other people or you know, organizations in the world, you're going to be running into situations where you have to make decisions for yourself or your business or your family or your team, or et cetera, et cetera, that sometimes maybe don't align fully with your values.

[00:04:13] And we wanted to come here and have a conversation as to what that looks like, because we're always talking about, you know, make decisions through the lens of your values, you know, be in alignment, et cetera, et cetera. But sometimes that's not a hundred percent possible. And we're here to talk about what happens in that space.

[00:04:30] Who wants to get started? Erica, I feel like you are chomping at the bit .

[00:04:34] Erica Courdae: I, no, I, I wasn't, but I can go. I mean, I think. The only reason I'm not gonna go with anything like specific, I'm gonna do a couple hybrids of pieces cause I'm not gonna call any individual groups of people out.

[00:04:51] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm.

[00:04:51] Emily Thompson: Yep.

[00:04:52] Erica Courdae: However, Tasha like Mm. Okay. I'm, I'll let you do that. I won't, I won't be so kind, but Okay.

[00:04:57] Tasha L. Harrison: I'll be trying.

[00:05:00] Erica Courdae: Um, um, part of what is always this duality when I'm working with people is this place of you are being imperfect and that is allowed, and I am not here to absolve you or to make you feel good about missteps or discoveries.

[00:05:25] And I am not here to be tokenized.

[00:05:29] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm. That last bit.

[00:05:31] Erica Courdae: So there's this place of, you know, providing support and being in spaces and being open and being accessible and also having to have very clear boundaries around what I as a human, as a black woman am not available for. And that my presence does not somehow absolve you of this.

[00:05:56] It is not a get out of jail free card. It is not a, um, but it's fine cuz I, I apologize. Right? It's not really how that works. And so there's that space of having to work with someone one to one or one to many, and really going deeper as to what imperfect allyship means. It does not mean just keep screwing it up every chance you get.

[00:06:26] It means being intentional and making amends when you do make mistakes, but not fully just going in intending, like, I'm just gonna put my foot right on in my whole mouth and it's fine.

[00:06:41] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm. , I'll just apologize later.

[00:06:44] Erica Courdae: Right. Because I have unfortunately been on that receiving end of, you know, but wait, I'm, I'm working with the black person. And, and it's like, no, that, that doesn't work that way. And that's not how that goes. And yet you're supposed to be imperfect. You're supposed to be able to have space to figure it out. So I have to let you figure it out. And I have to have very clear boundaries and I have to enforce them regularly. Yeah.

[00:07:10] And not because anybody is like regularly like determined to push, but you don't know what you don't know. And it's important for me to be able to be clear cuz clear is kind.

[00:07:21] Emily Thompson: I love how you're bringing in this idea of being imperfect because I feel like that's really what we're going in here, like we're gonna dig in to talk about.

[00:07:30] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:30] Emily Thompson: Because I feel like often when we are talking about values and living in alignment and all of those things, we, I mean, we're kind of insinuating that this perfect alignment is what we should be going for, but in the messy reality of this messy world, not really possible. And I think if you are trying too hard to align, you're not going to do anything.

[00:07:57] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:07:57] Emily Thompson: In your life or in your business. So I love that there is this embracing of, we're gonna talk about values, we're gonna understand what they are, we're gonna, you know, strive to align with them as much as possible. But we are imperfect humans in an imperfect world. And there has to be this sort of gray area that we do exist in, in general.

[00:08:18] Erica Courdae: A absolutely. And the, the thing I have to say is, as somebody that is always a recovering perfectionist, just when I think I move forward, it's like, Nope, I didn't, but back slid into it again. I am going to attract other people that are similar. And so more often than not, people are more afraid of getting it wrong.

[00:08:39] And so there's this place of like, I don't want that to be the thing that stops you. Um, and you ha you have to try. And so more often than not, um, I do find that the, the people that really make the biggest impact, start off with that like, I'm gonna screw this up. I'm gonna screw this up and I want, I wanna mess this up. The people that make me nervous are the ones that just kick down the door and I'm like, woo, you came in hot. That's a lot. Wait a minute now. Because they didn't have any intentionality. They

[00:09:14] Tasha L. Harrison: Right. I think that, I think a lot of that, it ties to the fact that if you are concerned about messing it up, you're already thinking ahead.

[00:09:20] Erica Courdae: Right?

[00:09:21] Tasha L. Harrison: Considering that I

[00:09:22] may do or say something harmful or hurtful. I do not want to do that. So I wanna do, put everything in place so that I'm not doing that versus someone who's just like, I'm going to say it. Tell me how to do it.

[00:09:35] Erica Courdae: That that part. That part. Yeah, that part. And that's where, I mean, the interesting thing is I think that so often people love to compartmentalize the work that I do. Anything that even remotely shows up with diversity, equity, and inclusion. They wanted to be like, oh, it's another thing when the reality is, is that every single concept that comes up, whether it's imperfection, whether it's values, whether it's company culture, like insert thing here, it shows up in everything.

[00:10:02] Your household is a company culture. Your business requires,

[00:10:07] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:10:07] Erica Courdae: Your business requires and perfection and it requires risk taking. Like these are not things that are mutually exclusive to this one area. So when people love to like wanna extract and be like, oh, it only exists here. It's like, mm. Actually, no, this is everything that you're doing. But you have to understand that that's where it's like, oh, now this gets a little easy because I'm recognizing that this is everything that I am thinking, saying, doing, and being. No different than what you tell people. Go be boss Emily. You ain't telling 'em. Only be boss at work. Don't be boss. Nowhere else like just be, be boss as a whole.

[00:10:48] Emily Thompson: Yep. I, it reminds me of something. Is this like an old bossism, someone came on the show or maybe it just like came outta Kathleen's mouth at some point. I don't even remember. But um, how you do anything is how you do everything.

[00:11:01] Erica Courdae: Facts.

[00:11:02] Emily Thompson: Right? Of like, no matter where it is. But I, again, I wanna talk about this gray space though. I wanna talk about like, and I think probably the best way to maybe bring this into awareness for everyone of like, of what I wanna dig into and how this is actually applicable is I've asked you both to like bring a situation or a couple in which you moved forward in your life or work in a way that was not in complete alignment with your values, but you made, do I wanna call them?

[00:11:41] I'm gonna call them concessions in order to make the move. And then I wanna like dig into what happened, like how did you feel about it? How did you deal with it? How did you like all those things. But I think let's set the stage first with a situation in which you did something that wasn't a hundred percent in alignment.

[00:12:03] Good or bad, but like maybe good , maybe a good thing that you did. Who wants to go first with that one? Tasha? Love that hand. Go for it.

[00:12:14] Tasha L. Harrison: Um, so I'm in a slightly different situation. Well probably the mirror situation of uh, what Erica does daily. Um, I am dealing with, I was about to say, an entity. Let's just call it an industry cause I thought entity evil, you know, but I'm dealing with,

[00:12:33] Emily Thompson: Yep.

[00:12:34] Tasha L. Harrison: it's October, y'all, you know, my brain's going that way. Um, but yeah. Um, I'm, I work within an industry that is really not, they're only surfacely concerned with DEI. There's a lot of performative allyship that goes on. There's a lot of performative diversity that goes on.

[00:12:55] There are lots of times in my career that I probably could have been further along than I am if I could just shut my mouth. Sometimes I'm unable to.

[00:13:05] Erica Courdae: I can't. I can't, if it make you feel, I can't, don't let nobody lie to you.

[00:13:09] Emily Thompson: It's not my forte either.

[00:13:11] Tasha L. Harrison: I'm actually sure it causes cancer if you hold it in.

[00:13:16] You can't remain a well person and just hold in that, you know, that righteous rage like that.

[00:13:20] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:21] Tasha L. Harrison: Um, but you know, there comes a point when there comes a point in, in the process of dealing with, uh, an entity that has no, I keep saying industry that has no real desire or no motivation to change how you choose to interact in it and without limiting your, uh, opportunities and possibilities. And I'm coming up against that now.

[00:13:50] Um, Yeah, it's just that it's, it, it's difficult to, uh, make a justification for getting involved with something that is still like, you know, notably racist and non-inclusive. But, um,

[00:14:07] Erica Courdae: Tell me what ain't, tell me what ain't though.

[00:14:08] Tasha L. Harrison: Right. So like, and, and one of those values is like, for me is like, if I'm going to be existing within this space, I'm still gonna have to be me. I'm still gonna be the person who writes the stories, I write about the people I write about the, the, the themes and the concepts that I write about. But, um, You know, having that, being under that umbrella kind of casts you in a negative light. And this is mostly because there are those who've gone before me who were really loud about diversity, and then they got their book deals and you know, now all of a sudden everything's in the dms.

[00:14:43] They're all keeping quiet. They're, uh, not paying attention to any sort of in industry stuff that they were able to take advantage of during that small window of time when they were like, oh, we'll welcome you in. You know, now the door is closed and, you know, they're just like, well, I got my deal, so I'm not going be out here talking about, you know, master like that. Oh. But for real.

[00:15:06] Emily Thompson: Oops. I mean, yeah. Right. So you are operating in a whole industry that is problematic and in conflict with your own personal values. And I mean, we've seen you navigate this ins and outs of weird situations and community commentary and like the whole shebang will come back to like why and how and all those things in a second.

[00:15:33] Um, but Erica, what about yours?

[00:15:38] Erica Courdae: Um, it makes me think about when I finally went from being employed by someone else to being fully employed on my own and really starting my salon. And I, you know, did work for a corporate entity. And did not get the support that I needed. I was the highest grossing stylist. I, of course, had all of the people that looked like me because there wasn't anyone else to do it, and I could not get the support that I needed.

[00:16:14] I wasn't able to get the products. Like I felt like I was constantly like, I need this, I need this, I need this. Cuz I couldn't just order my own things. Cuz when you're working for, you know, like if you're in somewhere and you're not doing booth front, like you can't just go get what you want and I did a lot of baby, baby please to try to get what I needed and there was a situation that came up and it just was really clear to me that leadership was never gonna do it and they were just gonna string me along as long as possible.

[00:16:43] And it didn't matter to me if it was direct leadership or if it was corporate leadership that was doing it. I just finally hit a point in like a switch just flipped and I was like, I'm done.

[00:16:54] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:54] Erica Courdae: And I began to plan everything that I needed to do to leave and that meant that I had to covertly, you know, find my clients and let them know like, Hey, I'm leave, just so you know. Hey girl, hey you wanna come? I'm leaving. Because what they needed was not gonna happen there. And I was more focused on my clients receiving what they needed than to leave them and to not, um, be able to support them or to just leave because I just don't wanna deal with this because I felt like the structure was inherently flawed and I had to figure out how is it that, you know, I can go do what I need to do that's actually in service to the people that I actually do.

[00:17:50] I'm in the beauty industry because I enjoy people. I'm here to be of service to them in this way. And it's like, well, this is what's happening. Cuz they were like, you gonna stay here? Cuz people, they just were like, mm, I don't know what's happen. You gonna stay here girl? No. Oh, where you going? I'm going with you.

[00:18:08] And it was never this like, I think in the beauty industry there's this, this idea of like, you know, poaching and like, oh, you're taking our, you don't own people. People go where they want to.

[00:18:20] Tasha L. Harrison: And they can make their own decisions.

[00:18:22] Erica Courdae: People spend their money in the ways that they choose to, and so people chose differently.

[00:18:27] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:28] Erica Courdae: And I had to make a choice to completely go out of the comfort zone of, and I'm gonna say it's the lie, the quote unquote lie of, oh, you, you, you have, you know, consistent work and you have benefits and you have this and you have that. And I'm like, yes, and this does not work. And so I completely left.

[00:18:51] And that, from that point on, like I a hundred percent worked for myself.

[00:18:55] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:56] Erica Courdae: And that was that risk taking of I'm gonna jump and I feel confident. That I am going to be caught and supported well, but I know that that's not always an easy thing for people to, to go and do. Because you.

[00:19:12] Tasha L. Harrison: Or even visualize.

[00:19:13] Erica Courdae: No. Especially when you're, you're told that working for somebody else is more consistent or more reliable. Exactly. And that's not necessarily true. It's often not true. You can lose your job at any time.

[00:19:31] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Erica Courdae: You can get furloughed at any time. That doesn't mean anything. And so I, I was just like, it is not at my values to stay here and to do something that doesn't feel good and I'm not gonna just, you know, hit the Dave Chappelle. I quit and just walk out the day. I wasn't gonna do that either. Cause I'm like, no, I, I wanted to make sure that I had planned and decided what I needed to do for me. And what was gonna be best for the people who, you know, I had relationships with. Like, these are people, you watch them get married, you watch them have kids, you're a part of their, you know, their lives. They mattered.

[00:20:12] Tasha L. Harrison: Right.

[00:20:12] Erica Courdae: And so I dealt with this very questionable situation at that point, um, cuz it was a little transient with some of the hiring and things and, and took the risk of, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I know it's not this, it's not this. And so part of it was I was still building it. I was like, um, oh no.

[00:20:35] Tasha L. Harrison: It was like a situation where I was just put throwing down the tracks that the train was coming. That's...

[00:20:40] Erica Courdae: I knew that I was...

[00:20:41] Tasha L. Harrison: I'm throwing the tracks down in front of it.

[00:20:44] Erica Courdae: Exactly. It's like I'm not gonna just stand still. And I'd have no, I don't know what direction this is going. I have no idea what's happening. I figure it out. I'll figure it out.

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[00:21:52] But what I do, what I'm gonna poke you, Erica, because the, what you just shared was a time in which you did follow your values. But I do recognize that I think being in that industry is against your values in a way. And I also know for you that that like safety and security piece of that is so important to you that I feel like that really was the, the, that that nugget of it for you.

[00:22:19] Erica Courdae: That that was the thing. Because I still did not have the awareness at that point of that programming of like, What do you mean you gonna work for yourself and you, but what do you, you don't, you don't go and work somewhere else for somebody else. Well how do you get paid? And so it was,

[00:22:35] Tasha L. Harrison: Where's the money coming from!

[00:22:38] Erica Courdae: Right? Just like that whole like So you, you're at home? No, I'm working. Oh, you're home. No, I'm working. I just happened to be in the house. I'm working though. And so, but at that point I didn't have the conscious awareness of it and I was still absolutely fighting that whole piece of like, what happens when I don't have health insurance paid for? What happens when I am no longer, you know, employed by somebody else and I have to buy all the products and all the overhead is on me.

[00:23:14] And so there was a lot of like, That was a lot of fear and it was, it was just, it was scary.

[00:23:22] Emily Thompson: What's that little hand for Tasha?

[00:23:24] Erica Courdae: I know. I'm like, what is it?

[00:23:25] Tasha L. Harrison: I do have a question for Erica, and, and it's framed in, you know, your work as a DEI consultant. How, how often do you come up against clients that want to work with you, but you refuse to work with them for X, Y, Z reasons and how do you make those decisions? You know what I mean?

[00:23:43] Emily Thompson: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:44] Erica Courdae: Yes.

[00:23:44] Tasha L. Harrison: Because I, I know that there's some trash people in your inbox. It's just impossible for it not to be a thing considering the type of work you do. So...

[00:23:56] Erica Courdae: I don't get, I got the most, um, 2020 and 2021.

[00:24:03] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:03] Erica Courdae: So I don't get as many now. I think I have been really kind of outspoken or transparent about my values and who's a good fit and who's not a good fit.

[00:24:18] And you know how I work with people pretty often, so I, I, I try to repel the ones that are not a good fit purposefully. Um, honestly, I, there's only a handful and I'm not really giving anything away to say this. Honestly. The things that are like that you read and you're just like, who the hell is this? Where did you come from? They're podcasts, um, pitches.

[00:24:48] Tasha L. Harrison: Ooh.

[00:24:49] Emily Thompson: Oh yeah. Oh girl. Those are the, let's, do we not go down that road literally at all? Those are the worst.

[00:24:56] Tasha L. Harrison: Have you listened to this podcast? Why do you think you wanna be on here?

[00:25:00] Erica Courdae: But that's the whole thing.

[00:25:01] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:25:01] Erica Courdae: People that are not clear on what this show is, they don't understand your values, they make assumptions about your audience.

[00:25:09] Emily Thompson: Um, you're literally already giving them too much credit. They're not, they're like, they're not thinking that much. They're just sending emails to an email on a list.

[00:25:17] Tasha L. Harrison: Absolutely.

[00:25:18] Erica Courdae: They're, but that's why, for me, I'm like, oh no. And I mean, the good thing is, is it's easy to tell when it's not a good fit. But I don't, I, I don't have to feel those as often. The only thing I think that I maybe have every Blue Moon is the person that has their own fear or apprehension, and it possibly shows up in the form of urgency. Um, But once I actually, you know, end up interacting.

[00:25:50] Emily Thompson: Their just trash light, you know.

[00:25:54] Erica Courdae: Well, but you know how like somebody does something and you're like, oh, okay, I understand now. That really wasn't what it I thought it was.

[00:26:00] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:26:00] Erica Courdae: That didn't make it okay. And I get it, like, okay, I don't, I don't, it doesn't happen too often. It doesn't happen too.

[00:26:08] Tasha L. Harrison: That's, that's surprising. But nice.

[00:26:10] Emily Thompson: The real trash doesn't make it that far.

[00:26:11] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah,

[00:26:12] Erica Courdae: No.

[00:26:13] Tasha L. Harrison: You know, I mean, and it's mostly because of your messaging, your, your aligning your business framework with your values. So that makes,

[00:26:19] Erica Courdae: Oh, and I use the word no. So

[00:26:22] Emily Thompson: We know, we know.

[00:26:27] Erica Courdae: There are people, people that will not say no. Yeah. And that in itself is a problem. Like, if it does not feel right, if my like intuition or my gut is like, I, I listen and I pay attention. I have learned physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually what happens when I do not listen to my intuition.

[00:26:46] We, uh, we of good friends, I, I, I take the information so. It doesn't happen too often.

[00:26:55] Emily Thompson: Hmm.

[00:26:56] Erica Courdae: Um, and any time that I feel like maybe a person could benefit from something that is the benefit of having a almost 200 episodes of a podcast.

[00:27:03] Emily Thompson: There you go.

[00:27:04] Erica Courdae: I'm sure there's an episode I can direct you to to go get your life right. Just, you know.

[00:27:12] Emily Thompson: My story time. You ready for this?

[00:27:13] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:27:14] Erica Courdae: Yes.

[00:27:15] Emily Thompson: In this little moment. And I haven't talked about this super publicly. I think Tasha, you in particular probably know about this one.

[00:27:22] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:22] Emily Thompson: Um, I feel like in this moment I'm hiding this in 300 plus episodes. If someone finds it one day, so be it. So um, recording the audio book for the Being boss book. It's a little one, but like still irks me so hardcore. The story is, um, we, whenever we were negotiating our contract for the Being Boss book, um, we wanted to negotiate in that Kathleen and I would be able to do the audiobook and the answer was no.

[00:27:56] They would find someone to do it, um, and that we would not be allowed to. And as we were negotiating, several parts of this negotiation process was very against my personal and business values. Um, and really like even some of the messaging that we show up here and talk about it being boss.

[00:28:13] Tasha L. Harrison: Publishing.

[00:28:13] Emily Thompson: But like I know, right? I love that we're both talking about the same industry here. Publishing is awful, everybody.

[00:28:21] Tasha L. Harrison: Full stop.

[00:28:22] Emily Thompson: So, um, so we wanted to negotiate in that we could, they said no, that they would hire someone to do it, and we were like, okay. We were told that we needed to just let that one go. Um, so we did and we moved along and then they did come to us and want us to do the audio book for the book.

[00:28:38] And we were so excited to do it. And when we brought up getting paid to do such a thing, we were told no, we should just consider ourselves lucky that we get to.

[00:28:50] Erica Courdae: Wait. Wait, what?

[00:28:51] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:28:51] Tasha L. Harrison: So this is the tricky thing about doing audio books yourself. They, the way the publishing works, if you, if you contribute any sort of service based thing that they would normally pay for, instead of paying you for it, they just like, oh, that's great.

[00:29:06] You did it yourself. Amazing.

[00:29:08] Emily Thompson: Yeah, they, I mean, they coordinated, um, sound booths and stuff. Like we didn't do it on our mics and our, like, we had a producer, we had like somebody in our ear talking us through it, the whole thing. Um, but we, we were told we could not even ask to be paid for this additional service that we were provided and the like, 6, 7, 8 days between us that it took us to do it.

[00:29:31] Um, and Kathleen even split the script herself because they did not even send us a split script for the book. They just delivered us the book between two people and told us to deliver it. And again, like that, for like talking about it, I'm like shaking on my inside. I'm so angry about it. And it was, it's funny, I feel like even what you're talking about, Erica, is almost like this, this split value situation where you have to choose between two of your values.

[00:30:04] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:04] Emily Thompson: Right? And for me it was to choose to show up for this work of creativity. Creativity is one of my values. I want to be here and create, I, I enjoy seeing other people's creativity, like many layers of it. Creativity is one of my values. I showed up for that one. But at the, at the, you know, demise of, at the, what's the word I'm looking for at the.

[00:30:28] Tasha L. Harrison: Kind of at the cost of.

[00:30:29] Emily Thompson: Yeah, at the cost of this message that we had been preaching, we continue to preach of like, don't do shit for free.

[00:30:37] Erica Courdae: How you going to, tell me. I can't even ask.

[00:30:39] Emily Thompson: Can't even ask. Could not even ask.

[00:30:42] Tasha L. Harrison: Listen and I don't wanna make this, this whole episode about me. But no, truly though, because, um, I've negotiated, uh, audiobook deals for self-published books, and I make all of my covers and under normal circumstances, that would be something that this company would pay to do.

[00:30:59] But because I do it myself, they're just like, oh, if you have them, send them over. I'm like, like, is there any compensation? and like, oh no, we don't have any compensation for that.

[00:31:08] Emily Thompson: You need to have like a designer alter ego, you know, who is very expensive.

[00:31:16] Tasha L. Harrison: Very.

[00:31:18] Erica Courdae: I don't, I hate anybody that shows up with that idea of like, pay for exposure, bullshit, lie.

[00:31:28] Emily Thompson: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:28] Erica Courdae: That, you know just be glad.

[00:31:30] Emily Thompson: Oh, just, it's, it's a, you should be, Like Right. You should. You should.

[00:31:34] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:34] Emily Thompson: you should feel lucky that you get the opportunity to do this.

[00:31:37] Tasha L. Harrison: You're reaching a new readership and a new demographic that you never would've been unable to touch on your own. So you should be thankful. You should be, you should be grateful.

[00:31:45] Emily Thompson: Yeah, you should for this opportunity. Yeah. So anyway, that's mine. And it's one that like, I mean to, in terms of the creativity, I love what happened. The book is great, all these things, but it was absolutely in conflict with the general messaging that was behind the entire project, um, and still just irks me to this day.

[00:32:08] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, the idea that they thought you could even have someone else do y'all's narration when you have a literal podcast.

[00:32:16] Erica Courdae: Right?

[00:32:16] Tasha L. Harrison: No one would, everyone who knows you and listen to the podcast would be like, who is this lady reading this book?

[00:32:22] Erica Courdae: You didn't write this book about it, right?

[00:32:24] Tasha L. Harrison: Oh, where's Emily?

[00:32:29] Erica Courdae: Well, and it's interesting cuz there's almost this, there is that duality, there's that place of like, you know, I want to do this because of the, you know, the love of the craft, the art, the service, the, the, the contribution, the impact. And I want to be respected. I want to be compensated fairly. I want to be comfortable and, and safe in the environment that I'm doing this in.

[00:32:52] And that's on all levels. Not just physical, but like mental and emotional of like, I mean I can't even talk in here cuz y'all going to take what I say and you know, I gotta stay in this little box. And so that place of you know, how dedicated are you to the artist piece of it?

[00:33:10] Emily Thompson: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:11] Erica Courdae: That, that piece that as creatives we have and we need to feed in some way, shape, or form. And yet the, the real literal piece of business has some real tangible pieces of like, there's numbers, there's dollars, there's, there's parameters, there's rules, there's ways that things work, whether we like it or not. And so we're already working in a system that's broken. And so you get this really crappy feeling of, I can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools, but here I am.

[00:33:45] Tasha L. Harrison: And also like that, that's literally what I'm coming up against. Like at some point you have to consider the fact, or I'm considering the fact that I'm not like, there's this whole, you know, concept of selling out. You know what I mean? Like, I've stuck to all of my values and my, my, you know, my ethics, my personal values in ethics, and the same ones that I preach to every author that I work with.

[00:34:09] And now I'm getting an opportunity to do something different. The hopes are that my experience will not align with, you know, the crappy experiences that came before me. However, at some point I have to say, okay, all of my catalog does not have to be this thing. As long as I try to remain myself as much as possible. Am I selling myself out or am I selling myself short by not taking advantage of it?

[00:34:37] Emily Thompson: I, I've been thinking about this for you, but also something for me too, um, of this idea of selling out. I think there's, or selling yourself short, I think there's a third option that no one thinks about and that's selling yourself up. That I just want to throw in there. I made it up

[00:35:01] Erica Courdae: I wanna hear and then I, I, I have a thought too, but

[00:35:04] Tasha L. Harrison: it's kinda like failing up, I guess. Like, you know.

[00:35:07] Emily Thompson: Yeah, or just like sometimes you have to make, well, I don't wanna say deals with the devil because that's, that's intense. I don't mean that, but I think that there are times where carefully considered and intentional decisions to partner and or collaborate with people for what.

[00:35:36] You hope is a greater good. It's like, you know, like, you know, people who plan wars, this is a touchy subject, but like, you know, killing a thousand to save a couple million sort of scenario, again, that's sort of dark and a little deeper than, I mean, it go.

[00:35:52] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, it's like, it's like, you know, the, the whole, uh, analogy of the, the, the four people on the train tracks, like you can kill them or kill like a whole, um,

[00:36:05] Emily Thompson: Yes.

[00:36:05] Tasha L. Harrison: Group of kindergartners, there's five adults tied to the track you have.

[00:36:10] Erica Courdae: My gosh.

[00:36:10] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, but this is,

[00:36:11] Emily Thompson: it's got real gross.

[00:36:12] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, well, I mean this is the real, like a real literal, I don't know, maybe I've just been in too many leadership fucking, um, classes. We'll, we'll circle back around to that. But, um, like there's this whole idea, it was like, okay, you can save these three people who are tied to the tracks.

[00:36:28] By pulling this lever, but when you pull the lever, you're gonna kill all this potential over here. Like all of these, these kindergarten...

[00:36:34] Erica Courdae: Right?

[00:36:34] Tasha L. Harrison: These kids. So it's like...

[00:36:36] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:36:37] Tasha L. Harrison: You know what I mean? Like what course do you make? It was like, well, can you stop the train? No, the train is gonna go, so what decision do you make? And it's kind, I feel like at a certain point, not that you have to abandon your values, but you have to, what is the word? Tweak, adjust massage.

[00:37:00] Erica Courdae: So this goes into the thought that I have around intrapreneurship, and there's this place of, you know, I have a, I have had people use the word activist for me, and I'm like, I feel very uncomfortable with that because in my head activist means that you are literally,

[00:37:19] Tasha L. Harrison: It's a doer, your doing.

[00:37:21] Erica Courdae: It's boots on the ground.

[00:37:22] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:37:22] Erica Courdae: You are pro like that. I'm like, no, I'm not necessarily there. Um, in that particular way. And it makes me think about the concept of intrapreneurship because if you are out as the activist, you are doing the outward stuff. The intrapreneurship is still doing the work, but this is the person that, like, I work inside of this entity and I have my values in place and I understand why I'm here and I am going to, on the surface, be able to stay here because I seem as though I'm good, but I am making changes from the inside.

[00:38:04] Because I have made myself quote unquote easy and or palatable enough for you to be willing to listen to what I have to say if I'm a part of the conversation and to actually make changes. Because there are so many people that are always wanting to burn it down, but there is a place to where there is some change that has to happen from with inside.

[00:38:25] And so I am always that believer in, uh, top down and bottom up. A lot of people are like, you have to make it on a policy level. A lot of people are like, no, it's all grassroots. I think you need both. And I think that meeting in the middle does include people that are within organizations. And I can use government as an example.

[00:38:45] Somebody that is like, I am going to work to change legislation. I am going to work to shift where money's going. And

[00:38:54] Tasha L. Harrison: I don't know about that.

[00:38:54] Erica Courdae: To some,

[00:38:55] Tasha L. Harrison: I don't know about that comparison because I feel like government is like the one absolute entity where top down never happens, never.

[00:39:03] Erica Courdae: Government is a whole nother issue. I only give that one because,

[00:39:06] Tasha L. Harrison: because it's a concept that people understand.

[00:39:08] Erica Courdae: Correct. I That's a whole nother set of them.

[00:39:11] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah. I get what you're saying. Like with like corporations, like if you can get some, I'm in the top level of things to, uh, you know, Sign off your calls, y'all can meet in the middle.

[00:39:22] Erica Courdae: You know, because essentially if, if we all yell loud enough and they push us all out and they just put a whole bunch of, you know, mediocre white men that really aren't good at their jobs and are damn sure not concerned about anybody in places in positions of power and, and influence, do we win? No.

[00:39:39] Tasha L. Harrison: We don't win. But they do, and that's all they care about is winning. So this is the, this is when , I, I don't necessarily believe that these large systems can be changed. I'm not as hopeful as Erica.

[00:39:53] Erica Courdae: I, I'm not fully hopeful in it.

[00:39:55] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:39:55] Erica Courdae: So let me be clear. I'm not.

[00:39:57] Tasha L. Harrison: I think that there's, there's something to be said for, um, groups of us going in and getting what we can get out of it.

[00:40:04] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:05] Tasha L. Harrison: And pulling that experience that, that, um, that knowledge and knowhow and taking it somewhere else and giving it to other people. That's something different than, um, you know, getting in and just like, you know, becoming Mr. Anderson and just folding into, you know what I'm saying, like the matrix, like you just become

[00:40:21] Erica Courdae: True. But it all requires you to have spent some time in there even though you didn't wanna be.

[00:40:27] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:40:27] Erica Courdae: So the Matrix is a great example. They didn't wanna be in the matrix, but at certain points did they have to go in? And appear as if they blended in to get what they needed to extract people.

[00:40:36] Tasha L. Harrison: True.

[00:40:37] Emily Thompson: Oh my God.

[00:40:39] Tasha L. Harrison: Fiction. Fiction.

[00:40:41] Emily Thompson: I know you just went to the Matrix.

[00:40:43] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, it's like, it's just like that. It's like you have,

[00:40:46] Emily Thompson: It is.

[00:40:47] Tasha L. Harrison: You have a decision to make. It's like, if you're going to go into this entity, are you going to become Mr. Anderson? Are you gonna be Neo pretending to be somebody else? You know.

[00:40:55] Erica Courdae: It is

[00:40:55] Emily Thompson: I also love that we are now to talking corporations.

[00:40:59] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, well cause well, I, are we not ? I mean, I just feel like there's, at some point all of us have to deal with an industry outside of ourselves. You know what I mean?

[00:41:10] Erica Courdae: There's, yeah, there's always something. And at the end of the day, um, I don't think that they can all be saved, but I also know that to tear them all down without anything to replace them with will just create anarchy if you do everything at one time.

[00:41:25] Um, like that sounds like a great idea until it don't, and I'm not saying that because I am trying to save anything. Um, But I do think that there is a point of like, what do I need to get or know or do in this space for XYZ amount of time before I need to go and do something else? And I say that as having had clients that we're in positions of, if I go, they're gonna replace me with a yes person.

[00:41:56] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:56] Erica Courdae: So if I stay and I can find places to make change, or I then have information that I can go put somewhere else and create change, I'm better suited to stay than to leave.

[00:42:13] Emily Thompson: Is anyone else eyeballs deep in the return of travel. Conferences, retreats, meetups, which means receipts. I'll be honest, I'd gotten used to not having my wallet overflowing with wads of flimsy paper that I just had to save.

[00:42:27] Luckily, that's not how we have to live anymore. Not me or you. Thanks to FreshBooks Cloud Accounting. In fact, organizing your expenses has never been easier. Take photos of receipts with your phone using the FreshBooks mobile app and then throw the receipt away. You can even do one better by applying receipts directly to clients or invoices when you need travel lighter and still do your job.

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[00:43:01] What I love about this is that we're illustrating where I was hoping we were going to go with this, where. There is this like weighing of values and understanding your impact in whatever space you're considering going. And let's say it is, you know, a collaboration with someone that like mmm, or or like partnering with an organization or going into an organiza, organization or whatever it may be.

[00:43:29] There's a weighing of values that has to happen. There is this like intentional move into that space of going, I recognize that I am, you know, not in complete alignment with my values in this situation and I'm still making the move in because three, there is an impact to be made.

[00:43:50] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:51] Emily Thompson: that I can only make if I am in that space. And I do feel like if you are making this decision, this decision to, you know, step back from your values in this way, you're. Moving towards a greater good. That makes me feel better about making decisions in that way than I would otherwise. Um, but I also love here that we are talking about this incredible intentionality and like awareness around the situation.

[00:44:24] We're not just skipping into these places going, I'm gonna do this until it's hard. Then as soon as it's hard, I'm gonna leave. It's going and going. I'm not skipping in. I'm stomping in a little bit, bit, right?

[00:44:37] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:38] Emily Thompson: um, walk up in here, hold my values in place. Once I'm in this space, um, to make the impact that I need to make, and then also leaving when needed.

[00:44:49] I haven't written another book, everybody. I have not ventured back into that space at all.

[00:44:56] Tasha L. Harrison: Because it's hell.

[00:44:58] Emily Thompson: Yeah. .

[00:45:00] Tasha L. Harrison: And I think that too, like if you're gonna take this on like more of a personal level as small business owners like you, the almost every season you have to make a decision. It's like, okay, I've been invited to this thing.

[00:45:12] Do I wanna be on a panel with these people? No matter how much exposure it gives you, like you have to make a decision. It's like, do I wanna be the loud mouth in this room? Because is this the right room to be the loud mouth in number one, are these, am I gonna be outnumbered in a way, such a way that, uh, it's going to impact me negatively, like mentally and physically, or, uh, impact my business in a way that's negative?

[00:45:37] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:38] Tasha L. Harrison: Um, like those small decisions, those seem easy to me. Like, it's like, oh, would you like to come to, Absolutely not, and I'm not gonna be in the same room with these authors. You must be outta your rabbit ass mind. No.

[00:45:50] Erica Courdae: Well, but see what you, what you mentioned as well is that understanding that.

[00:45:57] You need all of the above. So if we think about nature, you have the sun, you have the moon, you know you have high tides, you got low tide, you need all of those things. And so the same way you need somebody that's like, you out your rabbit ass mind I'm not coming in here , you gonna have that person that's like, mm-hmm , I'm not gonna say nothing and I'm gonna watch and then I'm gonna take this information back and I'm gonna do what I need to do.

[00:46:16] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:46:16] Erica Courdae: You had, and those are two very different, you know, ends of the spectrum. But you need all of the above.

[00:46:25] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:25] Erica Courdae: Because you do need the people that are like, oh no, I'm gonna be real outspoken. And that's fine. You gonna have the ones that are like, I'm gonna observe and get the necessary information or get the contacts or whatever needs you in there on the mission impossible.

[00:46:38] Emily Thompson: What?

[00:46:38] Erica Courdae: I need. You are in there on your covert mission.

[00:46:46] Tasha L. Harrison: I mean, you know, for real. I do think that, uh, like there was a time that I was that loud mouth in the room and I enjoyed it. But like looking back, it's like 10 years, 11 years in, I'm like, girl, you could have been somewhere else if you just shut up.

[00:47:01] Emily Thompson: But but also, but you can still be the loud mouth in the room without being the loud mouth in the room.

[00:47:07] Erica Courdae: That!

[00:47:07] Emily Thompson: You're already talking. I know this thing that you're talking about but not talking about, and you've already talked about being the loud mouth in the room.

[00:47:14] Tasha L. Harrison: And also pulling up, not pulling up the ladder behind me cuz that that feels.

[00:47:18] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:47:19] Tasha L. Harrison: Very intentional because there are so many people who come in and they'll be like, you know, well I got this so I'm not gonna worry about nobody else. Mm-hmm.

[00:47:26] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:47:26] Tasha L. Harrison: Uh, I'm going to exist in that space with my big ass mouth and you know, be like, oh, but also my girl over here, she needs someone.

[00:47:33] Erica Courdae: Right. You know, but that's the whole thing. The loudest person in the room isn't necessarily necessarily the loudest mouth in the room.

[00:47:40] Emily Thompson: Yeah, for sure. And I think I can think of a couple situations, especially recently where the same thing true for me, where like been in a space with people where like, If I wasn't thinking dynamically or deeply about these situations, it probably would've been a fast and quick no.

[00:47:57] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:47:57] Emily Thompson: Right?

[00:47:57] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:58] Emily Thompson: But when you think dynamically and deeply about situations and like, there's also a recognizing of your power that comes in this too. Of like knowing that you have the power to go into a room and like change the perspective or, um, or like allow for some disillusionment or whatever it may be.

[00:48:17] Right. Simply by being present.

[00:48:20] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah. Just like to come in knowing that they're trying to sell you a dream and you're not gonna buy into it.

[00:48:25] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:48:26] Tasha L. Harrison: And, and stay in that mode. Like to always keep it on their, their toes, you know what I mean? Like, it's one thing to be invited into a space like that, it's something else to go into it intentionally and be like, oh, okay. Yeah. You all, you want me here, but I'm not gonna make it comfortable for you.

[00:48:44] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:48:44] Erica Courdae: And stay aware. Yeah.

[00:48:45] Tasha L. Harrison: Whatever you, who you, whoever you thought I was coming in here, that's who I am. Now that I'm in here, you're not gonna shut me down or shut me up.

[00:48:52] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:53] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:48:53] Erica Courdae: No, no, because some people go into spaces and then they, they do do the Mr. Anderson, they just kind of absorb and become, and they acclimate. That's a big difference from mm-hmm the, the, the program did not change.

[00:49:08] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Tasha L. Harrison: Especially when it doesn't really, like if, if it's just a money situation, you can make money.

[00:49:15] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:49:16] Tasha L. Harrison: If money is deter determination, you can make money. If you, you could do that on your own, but if it's a situation where you could absolutely change how people are viewing this particular part of the industry, or make way for other people to take advantage of this part of the industry, then that seems more worthy to me.

[00:49:34] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:49:35] Tasha L. Harrison: Like we're all really adept at making our own tables. Like, I'm like Barb the builder.

[00:49:41] Emily Thompson: Tis the boss way.

[00:49:42] Tasha L. Harrison: Barb the builder over here just building my own table. I got built my own bookshelf. I gotta build the whole thing. And then they look over here and said, Ooh, you got something good or going on, you wanna share with us? You know?

[00:49:53] Emily Thompson: You got cute table.

[00:49:54] Tasha L. Harrison: Can I sit at your table?

[00:49:57] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Right. And so I, I do think, I do think that whenever you choose the path of being boss, but really like being a leader and a small business owner like even if you're, if it is a solopreneur situation, just by claiming that role for yourself, you give yourself a different kind of power to initiate change and or make an impact or whatever.

[00:50:25] And I find that it's usually in those situations where values get brought up and sometimes you gotta bend them. Just a little bit in order to make it into the rooms in order to, you know, make the moves, gain the resources. That one's a little stickier. gaining the resources.

[00:50:43] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:50:43] Emily Thompson: Um, depends on what the resources are.

[00:50:45] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:46] Emily Thompson: I think, and what you wanna use them for. Um, but I think there is a careful dance that has to be played, but I, I think we can all agree that it's holding the best of intentions and this idea of elevated impact in mind.

[00:51:03] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:03] Emily Thompson: in order to do it.

[00:51:05] Erica Courdae: There. 100%. There are absolutely conferences as an example that I, on the surface would be like, uhun won't do that.

[00:51:16] Emily Thompson: That's a good one.

[00:51:17] Erica Courdae: But if somebody were to show up and be like, Hey, we want you to speak. Okay, so now I have an opportunity to leverage this. I have an opportunity to get what I want and what I need. And I also have an opportunity to draw attention to the fact that if there's a lack of diversity, if there's a lack of representation, if there's a lack of, um, honoring the people that you're having come here and, and compensating them fairly, whatever that thing happens to be.

[00:51:43] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:51:43] Erica Courdae: I am not going to likely, I am likely not. There are some things I'm just like, no, my spirit can't carry this, but I am likely not going to say no. If there is an opportunity for me to make impact, yeah. I am going, I am willing to move into this space that is questionable at best to prove a point.

[00:52:08] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Oh yeah. But that's the nugget, everybody. We found the nugget. Right there. Good. I completely agree with that. I completely agree with that and I think it definitely is in situations like that too, cuz oftentimes we'll talk about, you know, values is what keeps you feeling good about your decisions. And though I did illustrate how that book decision still makes me wanna barf, sometimes when I think about it, it really is that, like that elevated impact, like I wouldn't have let anybody else do that audiobook y'all. Absolutely not.

[00:52:42] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah. It's like you had to make a decision about whether you were gonna hold to your creative idea or demand money.

[00:52:50] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:52:50] Erica Courdae: Well it, but it's because of the fact that we make decisions and choices all the time.

[00:52:54] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:55] Erica Courdae: It's whether or not you give yourself the credit for making intentional decisions.

[00:53:01] Emily Thompson: Yep.

[00:53:01] Erica Courdae: And understanding that sometimes even when you think they weren't intentional, that those ones that you thought were just quick decisions just to get it off. No, you did it because you really like, that was an easy one.

[00:53:12] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:13] Erica Courdae: Like there are definitely times you're like, Ooh, I need to think about that.

[00:53:15] But I guess it did do that thing right? Cause people will reflect things back to you and it's like, okay, well, here we are.

[00:53:22] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Right. It is the intention and the impact. It's like as long as you're going into it with like, like fully self-aware and with the best intentions

[00:53:31] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:53:31] Emily Thompson: And then add that to you're doing this because you see the path to elevated impact, then it's okay to bend your values for this thing to get you into that space. Uh, but I also, when I bring it, you know, to even you Erica, this idea of leaving this, this situation that you were in of like, there's also can be a time when you should be done.

[00:53:58] And that like, if you see the impact is not being made, if it is, you know, wearing on you too bad, whatever it may be, I feel like there's plenty of like hard situations where you have to make the call of like, okay, I did it. It's time to leave. Whether the elevated impact was reached or not.

[00:54:13] Erica Courdae: What I didn't realize when I left from being, um, A teacher in the beauty industry was that I loved what I did, hated the leadership where I worked.

[00:54:25] They were god awful, they were terrible. I mean, like I was sick to my stomach every morning to go to work. It was horrible, and that has carried me through everything that I do to really be aware of the intentionality. I didn't even know that that was a huge part of allowing people and holding the space for them to show up as they are.

[00:54:47] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:48] Erica Courdae: You know, that person that wanted to shut me down because I laughed too loud. Like I got shushed as a whole adult. I was like,

[00:54:53] Tasha L. Harrison: Oh, see, no, we would've been fighting that day.

[00:54:57] Erica Courdae: Right. And so

[00:54:58] Tasha L. Harrison: You're gonna, you're gonna, someone not to laugh. You don't like joy. What's wrong with you?

[00:55:05] Erica Courdae: Oh yeah. I, I got, the shhh I got fully shushed.

[00:55:10] Emily Thompson: I think I'd laugh harder.

[00:55:12] Erica Courdae: I got,

[00:55:13] Tasha L. Harrison: yeah. I would've, would've cackled a little bit louder after.

[00:55:15] Erica Courdae: Right. And, and I have carried those things to shape what I have done in the beauty industry, what they do with DEI work. And so I, you know, and, and that was the job that I had before I went to the one where I then went to work for myself.

[00:55:31] Tasha L. Harrison: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:31] Erica Courdae: So it was also all pieces. That led up to it. And even though at that point I was so deep in having to just work and, and the trying to exist, let alone thrive, I didn't know the intentionality was my friend. And it was

[00:55:46] Emily Thompson: Mm, yeah.

[00:55:47] Erica Courdae: Because in retrospect, I can point out exactly where it was then I was just like, I can't stay here cuz I'm gonna have ulcer. I have to go.

[00:55:59] Tasha L. Harrison: Or a criminal record.

[00:56:00] Erica Courdae: Or something's about to happen and it's not gonna work out well. And that will work out well. And so I think there's this place too of sometimes having to really give yourself, um, a little more credit for where you are. If you really have been working on it, there are points that you're like, ah, have I done enough?

[00:56:19] Am I aware enough? Am I, am I good enough? And then if you really pay attention, it's like there's been more happening than you've realized and it ran deeper than you realized.

[00:56:31] Emily Thompson: Yes. Tasha, I love this little hand. I've never seen you, so what's the word.

[00:56:36] Tasha L. Harrison: I dunno. I've been doing a lot of zooms.

[00:56:38] Emily Thompson: Good little manners over here. Yes Tasha, you next.

[00:56:44] Tasha L. Harrison: Um, can we acknowledge also and give ourselves grace for the fact that sometimes being loud mouth in the room is exhausting and there is nothing wrong with just being tired of doing the thing.

[00:56:55] Emily Thompson: Mm.

[00:56:56] Erica Courdae: As a black woman that had spent how many, how much time telling people that racism is bad.

[00:57:01] Emily Thompson: You fired her up.

[00:57:02] Tasha L. Harrison: I'm 44 years old. I don't wanna be talking about, I like when it comes to publishing, I literally do not wanna talk about diversity and inclusion anymore. Don't ask me on your podcast to talk about that. Don't ask me to come to your, your, your conference to talk about that. I do lots of other things.

[00:57:18] I am a smart person. Please talk to me about something else. And, and, and I know that, that. Because I'm such a loud mouth, like people expect that from me. Like I'm gonna like, oh, you're gonna want it to, I'm like, absolutely not.

[00:57:31] Erica Courdae: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:33] Tasha L. Harrison: Like, I don't wanna talk to people who don't want to learn anything.

[00:57:35] Erica Courdae: Don't pigeonhole someone and make them a one trick pony. And it's not okay to assume that that is the only thing that, I mean, I am in the DEI space and I have a whole lot more to bring.

[00:57:46] Tasha L. Harrison: I have so much I can talk about. Please ask me anything else.

[00:57:49] Erica Courdae: Right.

[00:57:50] Tasha L. Harrison: Anything else? And I like, there's just a point where like, I feel like, okay, I'm just tired. Mm. Everybody else I here going out here and making money, doing like shady shit. Why can't I do it? I would never do it, but sometimes

[00:58:05] Erica Courdae: Alright Walter White.

[00:58:07] Tasha L. Harrison: Everybody else doing it. Why can't I do it?

[00:58:09] Emily Thompson: We do have that conversation often of like, why are we doing this the hard way?

[00:58:14] Tasha L. Harrison: The scammers are winning.

[00:58:19] Emily Thompson: That's too out of alignment with our values. We've all decided that we would not be happy. We would be. We would be very annoyed with ourselves and it's just tiresome.

[00:58:29] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[00:58:29] Emily Thompson: It's just tiresome. Perfect. Well ladies, this has been a really good chat. I'm so glad that we could have this one together. I feel like, um, shared some really good experiences in both. Mostly I think everyone should just understand that the beauty and publishing industries are trash.

[00:58:47] Erica Courdae: Y'all, I need y'all to do better.

[00:58:50] Tasha L. Harrison: Well, you know what?

[00:58:51] Emily Thompson: Trash.

[00:58:53] Tasha L. Harrison: I don't know. These are systemic systems set up to keep us oppressed. There's absolutely no way to,

[00:58:59] Erica Courdae: they're working as they're designed.

[00:59:01] Tasha L. Harrison: Thank you.

[00:59:01] Emily Thompson: They, they are working...

[00:59:03] Tasha L. Harrison: They're working as designed. We have little moments

[00:59:05] Emily Thompson: That's a nice way to say they're fucked up.

[00:59:06] Tasha L. Harrison: We have little moments where we get, make some progress, but they are working as designed.

[00:59:11] Erica Courdae: But that's exactly why you have to really question why do you wanna see it at a table that you're already not welcome at? Go build your own.

[00:59:19] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[00:59:20] Erica Courdae: It is really important to not,

[00:59:22] Emily Thompson: Are you telling me to start a publishing?

[00:59:25] Erica Courdae: I mean, girl do, do whatever. You, you like it? I love it.

[00:59:28] Emily Thompson: Is that what you're telling me.

[00:59:30] Erica Courdae: I'm just saying.

[00:59:30] Emily Thompson: I'm busy. I'm busy.

[00:59:32] Erica Courdae: I had people years, I had people years ago that was like, can you start a beauty school? Can you do this? Can you do that? I mean, if anybody feel like they wanna invest, like I am happy to consult and get this going. Cuz I'm gonna tell you what, I got a whole lot to say at the 25 years in the industry. And a reason I'm here is because I do care. And y'all do better. Do better.

[00:59:51] Emily Thompson: Okay. We're wrapping it up y'all. We're wrapping it up. Wrapping it up. Um, Tasha, where can people find more about you?

[00:59:57] Tasha L. Harrison: TashaLHarrison.com and @TashaLHarrison on Twitter and instagram.

[01:00:02] Emily Thompson: Indeed. Erica, what about you?

[01:00:04] Erica Courdae: PauseOnThePlay.com and pauseontheplay on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Listen to the podcast. You can find that on a website as well.

[01:00:14] Emily Thompson: Awesome. You can find all these links on our show notes at beingboss.club as well. Erica, what makes you feel most boss? Oh girl. Say it, girl. Say it.

[01:00:25] Erica Courdae: I ain't, I ain't gonna say it. I ain't gonna say it yet. I ain't gonna say it. What I what, what I'm gonna say is there are things that little five year old me didn't necessarily think was gonna happen the way that they did. And I am over the moon overjoyed at how proud I have made my younger self y'all about to cry stop.

[01:00:48] Emily Thompson: Oh, that's sweet. Five year old self. And also, I think this version of yourself as well. I dare say.

[01:00:57] Erica Courdae: Oh my gosh. And, and my kids. Oh my gosh.

[01:01:00] Tasha L. Harrison: Yeah.

[01:01:01] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[01:01:01] Erica Courdae: Oh my gosh.

[01:01:02] Emily Thompson: Good job. Good job. Well, no details yet everybody, but good job. Good job. Tasha, what about you? What makes you feel most boss?

[01:01:09] Tasha L. Harrison: Um, I don't know. Actually today I don't feel very boss.

[01:01:17] Erica Courdae: Can we say though, to be able to just acknowledge that is boss.

[01:01:20] Emily Thompson: That today I don't have to feel boss. I love that.

[01:01:22] Tasha L. Harrison: Don't to feel boss every day. Like I have the most Monday of Mondays and I'm making up for today. So what makes me feel most boss is acknowledging that I work for myself and I don't have to be feeling. 100% every day in order to get the work done.

[01:01:36] Emily Thompson: You, you didn't have to go work to see anybody's face.

[01:01:40] Tasha L. Harrison: Well, child, if I had to talk to someone it would have been a problem.

[01:01:43] Erica Courdae: Murder.

[01:01:44] Tasha L. Harrison: Murder. . .

[01:01:47] Emily Thompson: Perfect.

[01:01:48] Erica Courdae: Emily.

[01:01:49] Emily Thompson: Oh me, me. What You feel most boss? Oh man. I feel like Taha does today a little.

[01:01:55] Erica Courdae: Can I give you what I think it might be right now?

[01:01:57] Emily Thompson: Sure.

[01:01:57] Erica Courdae: I think get, like you hate the, the weather, but the hats.

[01:02:01] Emily Thompson: Oh, you know what makes me feel most boss is I have a really great hat collection. Everyone, officially hat weather.

[01:02:07] Erica Courdae: Emily. And when Emily bring out the hats, it is, yeah, the hats and the brows, y'all, it's a whole look.

[01:02:14] Emily Thompson: The brows?

[01:02:14] Tasha L. Harrison: A whole look, a whole mood.

[01:02:16] Erica Courdae: It is a whole thing.

[01:02:20] Emily Thompson: You're ridiculous. Indeed. I indeed. Hats my whole, my hat collection, but also this hat today is making me feel boss. Thank you for that, Erica. I appreciate it.

[01:02:28] Erica Courdae: You're welcome.

[01:02:30] Emily Thompson: All right, thanks. You two. This was fun,

[01:02:32] Erica Courdae: Anytime. Love being here.

[01:02:34] Tasha L. Harrison: Love y'all.

[01:02:36] Emily Thompson: All right, boss, because you're here, I know you want to be a better creative business owner, which means I've got something for you.

[01:02:43] Each week, the team at Being Boss is scouring the news, the best entrepreneurial publications and updates and releases of the apps and tools that run our businesses, and is curating it all into a weekly email that delivers the must know tips and tactics in the realms of mindset, money, and productivity.

[01:03:00] This email is called Brewed. We brew it up for you each week to give you the insight you need to make decisions and move forward in your creative. Check it out now and sign up for yourself at beingboss.club/brewed. That's beingboss.club/brewed now until next time, do the work. Be boss.