Get More Dream Customers with Kathleen Shannon

[00:00:00] Emily Thompson: Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives and business owners and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and move life on their own terms. I'm your host, Emily Thompson. And today I'm joined by the O G Being Boss business bestie, Kathleen Shannon, to talk about finding your dream customer or client, whatever the case may be, so that you are making more impact, doing your best work and totally loving the work that you do.

[00:00:26] You can find all the tools, books, and links we reference on the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with a friend.

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[00:00:59] In the recent episode, I loved hearing how Michelle Grant, the founder of Lively, the lingerie and swimwear brand built and sold her company for $105 million in just three years, the total boss move. So if you're looking for a new pod to inspire your next steps, listened to the female startup podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:01:25] Kathleen Shannon is the partner and creative director at Braid Creative, a branding agency she co-founded with her sister 10 years ago. Kathleen is passionate about cohesive and articulate brands that reflect who you are, what you do and attract your dreamiest customer. Kathleen is also the co-founder and former co-host of Being Boss.

[00:01:44] For those of you who may be new here, you'll find her accompany me for the first 239 episodes of the Being Boss podcast with a couple peppered in since then.

[00:01:56] Kathleen, welcome to Being Boss.

[00:01:58] Kathleen Shannon: Well, thanks for having me, Emily Thompson.

[00:02:02] Emily Thompson: I'm so glad you're here.

[00:02:04] Kathleen Shannon: It's good to be back.

[00:02:06] Emily Thompson: This is going to be a fun one.

[00:02:08] I hope everyone's ready for what will probably be giggles. There's definitely gonna be some giggles.

[00:02:14] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, not too many giggles. I'm going to try and not be funny.

[00:02:21] Emily Thompson: I'm going to find that incredibly funny. I will be giggling. Perfect. We're going to shoot the shit for a minute because so anyone who's just here for the meat of this podcast, go into the show notes, find the timestamp scoot along.

[00:02:39] But Kathleen and I actually recently got together. And I want to talk about that first and then we're going to go into the meat of this conversation and that is, identifying your dream customer, but screw that for the moment. Kathleen and I were recently in the room together for the first time in over two years.

[00:02:59] And y'all, it was magic.

[00:03:01] Kathleen Shannon: I mean, I've missed your face so much. I feel like people don't believe us that all is well since not being partners anymore in business. And it was funny because at one point we did introduce ourselves to a couple of strangers chatted us up as ex-wives.

[00:03:20] Emily Thompson: Okay. I had told Kathleen, I was like, someone's going to ask while you're here.

[00:03:25] Cause Kathleen came to Chattanooga a couple of weeks ago. And I told her before she left, I was like, just so you know, at some point I'm going to introduce you to someone as my ex, because ex business partner, but like that's so just going to ex we'll leave it at that and see what happens. We're sitting by a pool and someone starts talking us up and Kathleen goes, yeah, this is my ex wife.

[00:03:45] Kathleen Shannon: Oh yeah. I just didn't feel all the way. I thought you meant ex-wife. I mean, logistically not sharing a bank account makes vacationing together a little bit more difficult.

[00:03:58] Emily Thompson: And date, which actually reminds me of still [00:04:00] haven't sent you how much the Airbnb was.

[00:04:01] Kathleen Shannon: I know you need to send me an invoice.

[00:04:04] Emily Thompson: Can we just have like a vacation Venmo?

[00:04:07] Kathleen Shannon: That's a good idea. A little vacation fund.

[00:04:11] Emily Thompson: Yeah. I actually like that.

[00:04:14] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. We need a plan before we opened that.

[00:04:18] Emily Thompson: Maybe just a quick little signature on something. It'll be good to go.

[00:04:21] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. So the point is we haven't seen each other. The last time we saw each other was in Guatemala. That makes us sound like such jet setters, cooperative for education, which is a nonprofit that we love and support.

[00:04:34] So we were in Guatemala together. And then after that pandemic times shut everything down. And we haven't seen each other in a while, but we're both fully vaccinated. We missed each other's faces. So I hopped on a plane. I got a direct flight to Chattanooga and we were trying to figure out where to go.

[00:04:53] Like, maybe we'll go to New Orleans or maybe we'll go to the Redwoods and meet up somewhere. And it was just getting complicated and I just needed to see your face. So I booked a ticket to Chattanooga and you booked for us an Airbnb in the middle of the woods, which is prime for getting murdered.

[00:05:10] Emily Thompson: Murder mysteries right there.

[00:05:12] Right. So, yes, we had gotten on a call to book flights to New Orleans or the Redwoods or whatever we got on COVID was starting to flare up real, real bad here, in everywhere. And we were like, you know, we, neither of us really felt good about New Orleans. So by the end of the call, we would, we'd actually decided we're not gonna do anything.

[00:05:31] And then about 15 minutes before our call was over, you were like, no, I'm just coming, booking it right now. So in the span of 15 minutes, a flight was booked. All things were planned decided I was going to find us a cabin in the woods. So I found this really cute place about an hour from Chattanooga. We go up there, no bra or makeup for days.

[00:05:55] Kathleen Shannon: I can't believe I even packed a bra or a makeup because neither were on my body the whole time.

[00:06:02] Emily Thompson: No, it was delightful. We basically just walked around in our PJ's. We went paddle boarding. I taught Kathleen held a build a fire.

[00:06:11] Kathleen Shannon: Yes. So day one, we're there. We're trying to build a fire. I grabbed like a bunch of wet, dirty leaves.

[00:06:20] Throw them in the fire pit.

[00:06:22] Emily Thompson: Tons of wet logs that were already there.

[00:06:26] Kathleen Shannon: I hold a lighter to it. And I was like, okay, let's light this up. Doesn't work. And so I'm like, okay, we need to find some gasoline. Like we need to find some lighter fluid to throw on this thing. That's how you start a fire. And Emily's face was as if I had just

[00:06:47] killed her puppy. She was like, what are you talking about? A lighter fluid, This is not how you start a fire. So Emily finds an axe and some wood and starts chopping wood, like a lumber Jack in like a Moomoo. She's wearing a Moomoo. She has the peace of mind to like go and put on some shoes for, you know, safety, but she's chopping wood in a Moomoo and like a boss.

[00:07:17] And I was like, okay. And then she's building this beautiful fire using like geometry and physics. We did tear up a trader Joe's bag, threw that in there. Like it kind of felt like cheating. I mean, we still had a lighter, but the fire was beautiful.

[00:07:39] Emily Thompson: Yes.

[00:07:39] Kathleen Shannon: So then I was like, I need to learn how to do this. I need to learn how to do this.

[00:07:44] Emily Thompson: Kevin was like, I want to do it tomorrow. It's like, I got you. I'll teach you how to build a fire.

[00:07:48] Kathleen Shannon: I wrote it in my planner. The goal for the month is to learn how to build a fire.

[00:07:53] Emily Thompson: Yes. And you did it the next day. So from my side of things, I mentioned it Kathleen let's build a fire and [00:08:00] I see you just go grabbing all these wet leaves.

[00:08:01] And I'm like, what the hell is happening right now? And I just watch her, like, what is she about to do? Let's see. So she goes up, does what she said. Gets up and is like, I'm going to go find lighter fluid. And I was like, what? No, no, no, no, no. If anyone knows David, you know that my David is a pyro. He builds amazing fires, he's very proud of it.

[00:08:32] I told Kathleen, she was like, how do you know how to do this? I was like, you're not allowed to live with David if you don't know how to build a fire. It is one of the things that he taught me years ago. And so I, it continued as said, I went and found an axe. So we went and got some dry wood. The dryest would we could find.

[00:08:50] Kathleen Shannon: Which was the decorative wood Air BnB.

[00:08:53] Emily Thompson: Later was the decorative wood.

[00:08:55] Kathleen Shannon: Which it brings me to my next point.

[00:08:58] All right, tangent, I just saw a friend post something like a TikTok. About how to find hidden cameras in your Airbnb? Oh, I didn't even know that this was a thing.

[00:09:09] Emily Thompson: It probably is.

[00:09:10] Kathleen Shannon: So how did they know that we use their decorative wood? Because Emily did get a message from the Airbnb owner saying, Hey, you're welcome to stay again.

[00:09:19] Maybe, please next time don't use our decorative wood for your fire pits.

[00:09:24] Emily Thompson: Indeed. Well, I mean, they would have got cameras in there. We definitely cut it in front of the outdoor camera. Like it was pointing where we were chopping set wood. So yes, so we go grab some wood. I start chopping. It could go grab this huge long handled ax and chopping it in my Moomoo.

[00:09:46] But I did put on my tennis shoes because you don't want to cut off a toe and Kathleen is videotaping me. And y'all the look on her face. You would have thought I was killing a puppy.

[00:09:57] Kathleen Shannon: I was equal parts, impressed and terrified. And there were also some moments down by the fire where you're like holding little shards of wood.

[00:10:06] And with a little hand axe, you're doing this thing where I wish you all could see me where she's balancing the piece of wood up and down with her pointer finger, and then quickly removing her finger and axing the little piece of wood in half. So kind of like, it's kind of like playing chicken with accident, a finger.

[00:10:28] She is playing chicken with her finger. And at one point I was like, no, no more like you've got to stop. I can't, I can't take this also because of no, COVID flare up. We are literally the worst state for COVID. I may have a touch of it right now. I don't know. Anyway, I was like, we can't afford to go to the hospital.

[00:10:47] Like you're not getting that finger stone back on. No, they've got bigger fish to fry.

[00:10:52] Emily Thompson: Indeed. Right. So I did stop doing that because it was really stressing Kathleen now. And she was right. If I had gone to the hospital, I, my finger would not have been saved. So build the fire, have a wonderful evening. The next day I teach Kathleen how to wield an axe and chop some wood and build a fire with geometry and physics.

[00:11:12] It was a wonderful sharing of experience and knowledge that will go down in my memory is one of my favorites yet.

[00:11:20] Kathleen Shannon: And I'll tell you what I felt really boss. Yeah. Axing that would. Except the right before I make my first swing. Just be careful not to follow through and hit your shins and about being a creative and having an imagination where you can see something in your mind's eye and then turn it into reality works against you.

[00:11:46] When all you can imagine, is this axe going into your shin? And then it's like, is this a premonition? Is this anxiety? Is this just like a healthy amount of, don't ask your shin off.

[00:12:03] Emily Thompson: Right. So, and I tell you that because you have to be aware of that for sure. And I knew that simply saying like that. I think even how I said it was like, I have two pointers, I'm handing her this like three, four foot long axe.

[00:12:14] I was, I got two pointers for you. Number one, let the weight of the ax do all the work. Number two, don't hate your knee caps and the look on your face and you hit home. And I knew that you would take the precautions necessary to not hit your kneecaps.

[00:12:33] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. I need to get serious about it. I asked all that decorative wood.

[00:12:39] We burned it in the fire. Okay. Another thing that happened on our trip is we were, you rented us these cabanas by the pool at this beautiful place in Chattanooga. I don't know if this is like an inside secret. Do you want me to know?

[00:12:55] Emily Thompson: I love common house. Three locations, Richmond, Charlottesville, Chattanooga.

[00:12:59] Chattanooga is the best, but what else?

[00:13:01] Kathleen Shannon: This beautiful space with a pool, it felt very COVID safe. Cause we were outside. We had our space, we had our own little cabana and we're hanging out by it and Oh, wait. Oh, is my story about

[00:13:16] Emily Thompson: I hope it was about the guy next door? Who decided to chat us up as if we didn't make this industry?

[00:13:25] Kathleen Shannon: No, no, it wasn't that son of a, oh, so all of a sudden we we're just chatting about whatever and all of a sudden you drop the words, granddaddy long legs. Oh. Because there were a time of a daddy long legs

[00:13:41] Emily Thompson: And scorpions y'all I didn'tknow that there were so many boxes in Tennessee. I did not know this was a thing I'm considering moving.

[00:13:48] Kathleen Shannon: So many bugs in the woods a lot.

[00:13:52] And a lot of daddy long legs. Emily's like, there were so many granddaddy long legs and I was like, hold the phone. Did you just say granddaddy long legs? And she's like, yeah, that's what they're called. And you know, Emily saying. She's the only right answer was I take this, I take this to Instagram, which by the way, I was like, who votes daddy

[00:14:18] long legs versus grand daddy, long legs. Like 10 people voted granddaddy long legs. They were all from Alabama and like 600 people voted daddy long legs. But the funny thing was someone messaged and was like, oh my gosh, it's so fun seeing you two together. I can tell that you're totally wasted.

[00:14:39] Emily Thompson: Sober as a Fox.

[00:14:41] Is that even a thing?

[00:14:42] Kathleen Shannon: Sober as a Fox like Emily and I, true story don't even really drink that much anymore.

[00:14:49] Emily Thompson: We literally didn't have a single drink the entire time. That's the thing.

[00:14:54] Kathleen Shannon: Because our bodies cannot process that stuff anymore. It doesn't feel good, but I want to do some wine, especially now that it's fall.

[00:15:04] Liver can't tolerate any of it. Sure. No, that's just how we are.

[00:15:10] Emily Thompson: We just look and sound drunk all the time, all the time.

[00:15:15] Kathleen Shannon: Especially together. It's a little exacerbated

[00:15:18] Emily Thompson: Yes. A little bit. Well, I do want to mention guy next to us in the cabana, because that was a funny thing, Kathleen and I are like turned towards each other, like obviously in our own little conversation, this happens quite often.

[00:15:30] Kathleen Shannon: Obviously trying to rekindle our marriage.

[00:15:32] Emily Thompson: Obviously.

[00:15:33] Oh yeah. So this guy next to us is like, where are y'all from? Like, oh, I'm gonna have to turn around like, my back, whatever I'm like mid COVID antisocial AF is who I am. So I turned over, rollover turned around and, we introduce ourselves I guess. And they were, this is the people who Kathleen introduced us as, her ex wives.

[00:15:59] And I was like, oh, actually, you know, ex business partners, or what do you guys do? It turned that conversation. And they were a husband and wife who were in town from, I think, Birmingham, some other city, staying at common house to do their like business planning because she did branding and web design and has for like five years.

[00:16:20] And she was so much confidence and I loved it, but like really, really owning it. And then he was her husband who was trying to like quit his full-time job to come work with her full-time. And so it was like part-timing with her and we just got lean and I almost at each other with like this like little old.

[00:16:39] Love it love this for you guys.

[00:16:41] Kathleen Shannon: Well, for me, it was more like, do we say something or do we not? Do they maybe know about, cause it's a small world? You know? Like, do they know about Being Boss? Do they not? We just let it lie.

[00:16:55] Emily Thompson: We did. We just let lie. But afterwards I remember having this thought of like, like, this is so much ego y'all.

[00:17:06] We helped build this industry that allows you to show up in this space and do it. It was for me. And none of that sounds ridiculous. I don't think of it from like an ego place. I'm just like how grateful I am that we have been in this space for so long that we can almost, that we've almost removed ourselves, like from the like larger population of like, this is just how people are showing up to do what they want to do.

[00:17:36] And I'm glad that we didn't say anything. I'm glad we did just sort of let that one lie for sure. But it was just, it was just like, almost like full circle moment of, this is how people are doing it and they're doing it locally. We, this isn't happening in Austin or San Francisco, or this has happened

[00:17:54] Kathleen Shannon: Well, even at a conference, like we used to only meet people who were starting their own business.

[00:17:58] Whenever we were going to a conference that was specific to people starting their own business, it wasn't a mainstream commonplace thing. So more than anything, it was just so cool. It was cool that like, she was, she seemed like a boss. Yep. I mean, and she like gave off that vibe. I really was super attracted to her and I love that it was like her husband that was, you know, trying to quit to join her.

[00:18:24] And it was just super cool that they're doing the damn thing. And for me, more than anything, what I realized coming from that conversation and not being like, oh yeah, I have a branding agency too. Or, oh yeah. We actually have a whole podcast talking about what you all are doing. And we've written the, we've literally written the book on how to do it and like how to do it in a way that is sustainable and realistic, but also with big vision and big goals.

[00:18:52] And for me more than anything, and maybe even the whole trip of just hanging out with you without Being Boss, being this like common denominator was that my identity is no longer wrapped up in work. And I don't know if that's pandemic times. I don't know if it is leaving, Being Boss. I don't know if it's just age and maturity, but I'm who I am without my business.

[00:19:18] It is really, truly all about relationships and friends and community and creativity, and you know, how you spend your time outside of work too. I mean, work is a big component of it, but it's also about like who you are outside of work.

[00:19:34] Emily Thompson: For sure. And that's sort of that's leads me to what I was thinking as well.

[00:19:40] Like we could have mentioned it for sure, but that trip for you and I was the only time we've ever gotten together and almost literally did not talk about work. I think there was a moment by the fire. We were just like, so how are things like, by the way, how is work? And just like a general, like good here's what's up.

[00:19:58] But there was no strategy. There was no like masterminding, anything like we just hung out for days and given the opportunity to talk about the thing that was always sort of the biggest common denominator for both of us, we just passed. No, we're just hanging out, just two friends hanging out and it was a ton of fun.

[00:20:18] I'm glad we did it.

[00:20:20] We'll do it again.

[00:20:21] Kathleen Shannon: I think also in that moment, I realized I've officially become an introvert.

[00:20:28] Emily Thompson: It was just so funny. Cause I, we had this conversation while we were together. I've been trying to tell Kathleen for years that I know you're an introvert. I've been trying to tell you.

[00:20:40] Kathleen Shannon: I just had nothing to say.

[00:20:42] I just couldn't even, even if I had wanted to talk about Being Boss or the industry, I just, I mean, this is probably why I had to quit the podcast. I have nothing to say. Well, I have a lot to say today and today I have a lot to talk about your dream customer.

[00:21:02] Emily Thompson: Yes.

[00:21:02] So this came up because a couple of episodes ago, let me double check my numbers here.

[00:21:08] And episode number 2 67, an episode called community versus audience versus market. Corey was actually joining me for that episode. And I was talking about community and audience and market. And we started talking about dream customer and Corey and I, and this got edited out as things do we got to thinking, like, what episode can we reference that talks about finding your dream customer?

[00:21:30] And so we're on this site and we're looking for it and we don't have one.

[00:21:35] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, I am. So I work for the quintessential green customer episodes.

[00:21:41] Emily Thompson: That is what you are here for. We have this huge hole in our conduct and the only person I could ever imagine to come talk about finding your dream customer is Kathleen.

[00:21:51] So welcome and let's do it.

[00:21:52] Kathleen Shannon: Well, Emily, I will fill any hole you have any time you need it.

[00:21:59] Emily Thompson: Thank you. Then let's dive in.

[00:22:03] Kathleen Shannon: It's going to be a deep dive.

[00:22:06] Emily Thompson: All right. For real though, giggles over. We'll see.

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[00:23:59] Kathleen, what is your dream customer and why does it matter?

[00:24:03] Kathleen Shannon: Your dream customer. Well, first let's start by talking about your customer. Okay. Whether you have a service. A physical product or you're a content creator like podcaster, or a writer or a social media influencer. It is essential that you connect with your potential customer, client, or audience.

[00:24:25] And so today I'm going to be using the word dream customer, but it probably is interchangeable with the word client or audience, depending on what you do and what you offer. But here's the point without people to buy or consume your offerings. You don't have a business, plain and simple.

[00:24:44] Emily Thompson: Amen.

[00:24:45] Kathleen Shannon: So first you need a customer.

[00:24:48] Now dream customer is what's going to make your business well dreamy. It's why we're all in this of working for ourselves is that we want to be creatively fulfilled. We want to do what we're best at. We want to feel like we're in control of our time and a dream customer can help you feel that.

[00:25:08] You're the boss. Not that they're the boss, because that is one thing that happens whenever you start to work for yourself. You're like, oh, I'm my own boss. No. Now you just have multiple bosses, which are all of your clients. Right. But if it's a dream customer, it's not going to feel that way. Now, one pitfall that I see with brands and businesses is that, especially in the beginning, they want to appeal to everyone.

[00:25:32] And sometimes it's under the intention of being inclusive or altruistic. Like they don't want to exclude anybody, but oftentimes whenever you're saying that your, for everyone, it's only diluting your brand and it actually keeps you from giving your very best to the people who could most benefit from your offerings.

[00:25:54] So this is where we really start to get to dream customer. Your dream customer, isn't just someone that you want to be best friends with. Your dream customer is the person who needs what you have to offer. They respect your expertise and it's someone that you can make a big impact for.

[00:26:14] Emily Thompson: Beautiful.

[00:26:15] Kathleen Shannon: And you know, sometimes like you might end up becoming friends with your dream customer. It's happened to me and that's okay too, because like people hire people and sometimes crossing that professional boundary into personal friendship is a lovely side effect of narrowing in, on who your dream customer is.

[00:26:32] And it just comes with the territory of, you know, owning your own business and relationships happen. That just happens.

[00:26:40] Emily Thompson: So when you're talking about dream customer, and we're going to talk about method in a minute, but that sounds singular. That sounds like there is like one person who you are identifying as your dream customer.

[00:26:53] Is there really only one? Or do you have like multiple dream customer profiles or is it really just one.

[00:27:02] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, that's a good question. I recommend to people and we'll get into this a little bit later, whenever it comes to how you, how you use your dream customer profile to really change your business for the better, whether that's in your messaging or positioning, I will say for a dream customer, you do want to think of one person or maybe like one or two people.

[00:27:26] So for example, whenever you and I were writing the Being Boss book, and I find this coming up a lot in content in how you express yourself and how you share your content, you do want to think that you're writing a blog post or a letter or a book or recording a podcast for one specific person. Who are you talking to and why does it matter?

[00:27:49] And what this does is it helps you get really, really specific about who you are in relationship to who they are. And we're all more alike than we like to give ourselves credit for. So if you are getting specific for one person, that one dream customer, you will still appeal to a wider net of people. But that one person holding that one person in mind is going to help you get really specific.

[00:28:16] Emily Thompson: Perfect. Then let's talk about method. Let's talk about how it is that you actually find them. What do you recommend for identifying who that one dream customer is.

[00:28:25] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. So the first step in identifying who your dream customer is or who your dream client is, is to get very specific about who you are and what you have to offer.

[00:28:36] So this is going to sound counterintuitive to a lot of the branding advice out there that says you are only there to serve your client. No you aren't, you are here to do your best at what you do. And so whenever you can connect your offering and expertise to your customer's desires and needs, when the work that you do positively transforms and changes and impacts the person that you're helping that's whenever things get dreaming.

[00:29:06] So we need to get to know you. Before we ever even began talking about your dream customer. And so at Braid, we do this by taking our clients through a series of branding exercises. We literally send them like a deck of note card worksheets in the mail to fill out and we talk it over in person. But if you're not working with us, one-on-one I want to walk you through just a couple of exercises that can really help you get to know you so that then you can connect who you are to your dream customer.

[00:29:38] So the first one is, selling and sharing who you are. So what I want you to do is pretend like you are sending a gift in the mail to your potential dream client and on the gift tag, it says to blank. From blank. Right? So to Emily, a blank. So here, you're going to describe that person to Emily, a retail shop owner who is a little woo from Kathleen.

[00:30:12] A branding professional, who is also a little woo. So imagine that you are writing this gift tag to them, but then I also want you to think about what you're selling. So this is very practical. And I also think the CEO day kit, are you still offering that? Absolutely. Okay. The CEO day kit is a really great way to logistically and practically get everything that you sell an offer down on paper and to get things, how you're sharing those things down on paper as well.

[00:30:45] So from, you know, your social media presence to your newsletter offerings, to your freebie opt-in offerings to then what you're actually literally selling. So the other thing I want you to do is just write down everything that you're selling. What are your deliverables even? So is it that you're a website designer and you offer, you know, UX packages and logo design, or are you an event designer who is not like an event coordinator, but literally just designing the event, you know, think about what it is that you're selling.

[00:31:20] The other thing, the other exercise, this is one of my favorites. I Braid Creative, that we do is called dinner party. And it's where you're imagining that you're inviting six people over for dinner and they can be historical, fictional. They can be people that you know, in real life they can be friends, family.

[00:31:39] And they can be celebrity. You know, I think that picking people that do have a personal brand and a presence is helpful because they have such a defined style and tone. But imagine that you have six seats at your dinner table, and you're trying to fill them with guests that you want to have a dinner party with.

[00:31:56] So right now my dinner party includes, let's see a Cardi B. I want to have her over Steve Martin. I want to hear what he has to say. Beyonce always is at my dinner party. I'd probably have you there, Emily. So we've got Emily at my dinner party. Who else do we have at my dinner party? I have a crush on Kim Kardashians.

[00:32:25] I can't help it. Like from a business perspective, I want her at my table. She is a business person working on her law degree. What? Okay, so Kim will be there. So like that, think about who's going to be at your dinner party. And if it's funny enough thinking about like who's at my dinner party, there are people that everyone either loves or hates.

[00:32:48] So that's kind of funny, not surprising, especially like Kim K and Cardi and Beyonce. Okay. So think about who is going to be at your dinner party. One of the things that this exercise brings up is tone and style. And you can almost even start to think about these people as aspects of you, but you can also think of them as

[00:33:12] your dream customer, how is your dream customer reflected in these people that you're having over and how would you speak to them? Well, why not bring that to your content? Why not bring that to your social media? Why not bring that to the way that you're writing your newsletters? So these are just a few exercises that can just start to get your creative juices flowing around who you are, your tone and style and who your dream customer is.

[00:33:37] So, but again, it really does begin with you, your offerings, your tone, your style. A couple of other things I want to mention here is that you might just be starting out and, you know, really feeling like you need to know who your dream customer is before you even get started. Do not let this be

[00:33:59] another reason to procrastinate getting started. Right? But also this conversation is good for people who have been doing the work for a while, because no matter what you want to always be assessing, what's working, what isn't, you know, and also your business is evolving. And so will your dream customers.

[00:34:18] So whether you're ready to expand on a new platform or pivot, or maybe even narrow in, maybe you've been doing a lot of work for a while for a lot of people, and you're wanting to hone in on a very specific person, no matter what stage of business you're in, it's always good to be taking a look at who you best serve.

[00:34:37] So if you're a little bit confused around dream customer, and you've gotten to know yourself, you've done a little bit of your own work. Here are a couple of ways that you can do that. So a little bit more method to the madness. One is the dream project. Stop thinking about the dream customer and really focus on the dream project.

[00:34:57] You may not have a dream client in mind, but use your imagination to create a picture of a dream project. So if you're a graphic designer, maybe it's designing a look-book for a street wear fashion designer, or if you're a life coach, maybe the dream project is helping a corporate professional who wants to write their first novel on the side, or if you're a content creator, maybe it's dreaming up a collaboration where you get to travel the world.

[00:35:24] The point is, I want you to get really specific about your dream project and chase that opportunity because behind the projects are people who are making them happen.

[00:35:37] Emily Thompson: That's a wonderful exercise. And it will say to you, from my experience, it definitely takes you having a dream customer for you to know who your dream customer is, or like to start having people who are almost your dream customer.

[00:35:49] Like you start sort of Frankensteining together aspects of different people, which makes just getting in there and doing it really important for defining who your dream customer is.

[00:36:02] Kathleen Shannon: Exactly. And, you know, we do so much talk about boundaries and if you're on Instagram, you're seeing quotes about not letting people steal your energy and getting rid of like toxic relationships.

[00:36:14] And here's the deal. You have to butt up against your boundaries to know what they are. So for anyone who is trying to still figure out who their dream customer is. My other piece of advice for you is to just say yes to everything. If you are just now starting out, it is totally okay to not know who your dream client is.

[00:36:36] Especially if you're offering a service like coaching or design that could have a broad net. And again, this would, might sound counterintuitive, but I would say yes to anyone you are attracting as a potential customer, just say yes, take on the work. Because you are going to learn so much about who your dream customer is by working and interacting with as many people as possible.

[00:37:03] And then after every single job, this is where you start to learn from the experience and not just get into a cycle of order taking and having shit jobs that you hate doing is after every single interaction, positive or negative after every single job. I want you to ask yourself one, what worked about this project?

[00:37:25] Two. What did not work about this project? Three. What did I love about this project? I'm going to stop counting. Did I feel confident and where did I stumble? Because I've got a lot of questions, but you know, really think about where did you feel confident in the process? Was it in onboarding them? Was it in delivering the final files?

[00:37:46] Was it in presenting? And then where did you stumble? Where did you feel hiccups along the way? Where were there miscommunication? Were there any unexpected surprises, positive or negative? What surprised you about this project and this person that you were working with and by examining every single project and every single client that you interact with, you'll begin to uncover patterns and that's where you can start to Frankenstein what works and what doesn't together.

[00:38:15] And then from there you can really start to tweak your own positioning and even portfolio to attract more of what you love and hopefully repel what isn't a good fit, where you'll no longer have bad fits approaching you for work. Because they will already know that you're not for them. And then eventually, so, you know, at first to say yes to everything, and eventually you will be able to begin to say no to the potential clients who aren't a good fit.

[00:38:44] And it's not a, no, that is a fear-based no, because there's a lot of that. It's more of a, you're not going to be best served by what I have to offer. I think that someone else is going to offer exactly what you need, but it's not me. So again, it's coming back to you and what you offer and not necessarily, and you know, it's a relationship and it's them and what they need.

[00:39:08] Emily Thompson: And some perspective to this from the product side, because so much of what you said is totally usable in this space, but also a lot of what you said. I'm not working on projects unless I'm doing like custom items, whatever it may be. So any, if anyone is here, how this relates is and how it is that we do this at Almanac in particular is just what Kathleen said around having conversations with everyone, right, is around talking to the people who are buying from you, who are interacting with you, who are seeing what you're buying and showing up.

[00:39:42] But it's also, if no one's buying it, it's the people who are falling on social media. There is a reason that they have seen what you do and have liked it or subscribed, or walking up to your booth at the market or walking into your store. Like there is something that attracted them there. You need to know what it was.

[00:40:00] So talk to everyone as much as you can, who interact with your brand as a product maker or as a retail business or whatever it may be. Find out what it is that attracted them to you. Write these things down, ask them what it is that they do. Where are they from? Are they visiting from out of town? Do they come in for some sort of special event, like get to know them a little bit and their situation just through like some small talk.

[00:40:28] And I will see if you are not great at smalltalk, get someone on your team who is because I'm definitely the person who is not great at small talk, but I have people on my team who are wonderful at it, and they are coming to me and telling me about our customers in a way that allows me to make decisions around marketing, to make decisions about what it is that I'm creating next to make, help me make all kinds of decisions because they are gathering the information and bringing it to me.

[00:40:57] Having those conversations in the context of product and retail is just as important, if not more so important, because it's basically going to be the only source of information you have for helping you identify who that dream customer is.

[00:41:11] Kathleen Shannon: So an example of how this works for Almanac is you were recently telling me a story about a first time crystal buyer coming into the store.

[00:41:18] And you might find that more and more as you have your physical space or as you're doing your YouTube crystal parties, that Being Boss listeners are tuning in or out of towners are coming to your physical shop. And it's the first time they've ever bought a crystal. And so then you might start tailoring your content to talk about first time crystal buyers and what they need to know.

[00:41:41] And then you're connecting with what they need and what they desire in a way that a, another crystal seller who might be really about the seasoned crystal user and buyer, in a different way, and there's enough room for everybody. And this is why it is so important to know yourself and Emily, what might be interesting about this is that you might say, oh, I actually really love talking to first-time crystal buyers.

[00:42:09] And what else can I offer them in maybe a spiritual journey or in a connecting to nature journey that they might not have tuned in? Is our crystals, the wedge that gets them in the door, or is it something else? I've noticed a lot of people are buying books about nature. How can I turn these nature lovers into further

[00:42:31] clients or customers who are going to start to buy other things, is there a way to connect the dots? Because that's what it is whenever it comes to a creative business and to having a dream customer and to connect it's about connecting the dots between your offering, your style, who they are, what they need and creating a big picture, a big, lovely picture out of it that we can all hang on our walls.

[00:42:55] And take to the bank.

[00:42:58] Emily Thompson: Yes. To all of that, for sure. You totally just metaphors. That was beautiful. You totally hit the nail on the head, right? Like if it is about these conversations is about connecting all the dots and about, and it's about defining who that dream customer is, so that everything that you're creating the way in which you're showing up, all of those things, is aligned with who is actually here to get the most out of what it is that you are creating.

[00:43:23] I also do have to say, I totally sold myself short there. I do love talking to our customers talking about that first time crystal buyers. Those are my favorite.

[00:43:32] Kathleen Shannon: You are secretly an extrovert who loves small talk. I'm secretly an introvert who just wants to lay in a float tank for an hour. Speaking of I have started doing float tanks, like sensory deprivation tanks, where I lay in a dark pod for an hour, and I love it.

[00:43:52] I know I'm an introvert now.

[00:43:53] Emily Thompson: Kathleen would rather sleep in a pod than go to a party.

[00:43:57] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. But back to, I just want to also make sure to articulate that knowing who your dream customer is, is also about knowing who your dream customer isn't. So just real quickly, your dream customer is not someone who doesn't need what you have to offer.

[00:44:15] I have had many people approach me because they have a friend that worked with me and they love the experience, but they don't need branding. And if you don't need branding, I'm not the person for you. Maybe you really like me and that's cool. Follow my blog, sign up for my newsletter. Maybe it will be a fit one day, but for now it isn't.

[00:44:34] Your dream customer is not someone who can't afford you. This is a biggie I hear from people a lot is like, oh, my dream customer can't afford me. Well, then you either need to figure out a way to be affordable for your dream customer. Maybe it's scaling in a different way. Maybe it's creating specific spots just for the dream customer that can afford you.

[00:44:58] Maybe. Just getting innovative about how you do what you do to make yourself more affordable. And your dream customer is not someone who doesn't respect you as a person or a professional. So if you start to get immediate red flags from an inquiry email, if someone's rude to you, because you have like a typo in your email, like they might not be your dream customer.

[00:45:21] So it is important to know that not everyone will be your dream customer. And I know earlier I said, say yes to everything. If someone's disrespecting you as a person or as abusive in any sort of way, they're not a dream customer, you can just say, no,

[00:45:37] those

[00:45:37] Emily Thompson: are mad nose, Matt. You know what I mean? Like legit hard.

[00:45:43] Kathleen Shannon: NO, a big no scalpel in the capital. Oh no.

[00:45:50] Emily Thompson: No. Okay. Anyway, next question. Perfect. Thank you for all that, Kathleen, once you know who your dream customer is, then what, how do you use this new idea of who your people are to build your business?

[00:46:06] Kathleen Shannon: Once you have a grasp of who you are and what you have to offer and who your dream customer is, you can begin to tailor your brand positioning and your messaging.

[00:46:17] So this is how you show up on your website, on your social media, in your newsletters. It's the way that you're talking about your services. It's the way that you set the tone in how you're sharing your content from blog posts to podcasts. This is where you're going to start to talk to your potential dream customer.

[00:46:40] And so this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, whenever you have one person in mind, whenever you're writing anything for that person or designing for that person or creating an experience for that person, imagine who that specific person is. And that's how you start to just create this dream customer avatar.

[00:47:00] I kind of hate that phrase, dream customer avatar. Because that is generic. I mean, it is kind of, but that's why I like thinking of a very specific person, even as we were writing the Being Boss book, we were thinking of two very specific people the whole time, like real people with real lives, real needs and real challenges.

[00:47:19] Right? And so whenever you can start to tailor your positioning and your content to these very specific people, you can ask yourself, do they have a sarcastic sense of humor? Can I get a little cheeky here? Do we share pop culture references? Can I talk about TV? Do they use a certain kind of industry jargon that you can speak to?

[00:47:40] You know, one of the things that we used to say in the early days at Braid Creative was like, don't use jargon. I actually take that back. If your dream customer is someone who speaks that language with you, then by all means use it. You're speaking the same language. But I also want to talk a little bit about the dream experience because not every single client is going to be a dream to work with, and that is okay.

[00:48:06] You can still create a dreamy experience by again, being clear about who you are, what they get and take them through the process of how you work by articulating next steps and what to expect. So you want to deliver an experience that sets a level of professionalism that cannot be denied. So even if you don't have personal chemistry, you do have mutual respect.

[00:48:34] So, this is where we start to get in a little bit more into that client from hell. I remember there's lots of conversations about clients from hell. In my early design days, I feel like it's a phrase that's not really used anymore.

[00:48:46] Emily Thompson: It was so popular. It wasn't there like a, like a site or a blog or like a Reddit or something that was clients from hell.

[00:48:54] Kathleen Shannon: And they would be sending emails and stuff. Okay. That's what it was.

[00:48:58] Emily Thompson: It was like, that was our pop culture at that time.

[00:49:02] Kathleen Shannon: Right. So what I've come to learn, and again, maybe it's just with age and experience or becoming a mom or something, is that sometimes the client from hell is just someone who is afraid.

[00:49:15] They are afraid that they're not going to get what they want or what they need. So it's on you to reassure them along the way it's on you to step up and be a guiding expert and let them know what to expect. So you can give them rationale for your decisions. You can, if you're a product maker or a store owner have clear store hours.

[00:49:40] And be there when you say you're going to be there, you know, like do what you say you're going to do. Right. And, and be clear about that. Let them know what's going to happen next. Listen to them. This is the biggest thing clients they just want to be heard. So you want to show them that you're listening and in a very practical way, by literally reiterating their needs and desires back at them and what you did to address those challenges and where you found opportunities.

[00:50:12] This is what creates a collaborative experience with your client. Even if I know that collaborative can be this, a little bit of a tangent here, sometimes collaborative. Get order takers, where like you imagine that you're sitting there and designing stuff together or writing their copy together, or, you know, figuring it out together.

[00:50:31] It's not that you're not figuring it out together. It's just an exchange of energy where you're listening to what they have to say, and then you're implementing on their behalf and then you're going to deliver above and beyond. And this level of service, isn't again about bending over backwards or being an order taker.

[00:50:49] It's about stepping up to the plate with confidence and reassurance because nine times out of 10, if you can come to the job and the project with that kind of energy, they're going to feel so much more calm and taken care of. And they're not going to cert to dust up their feathers, you know, around like what needs to happen?

[00:51:11] What can I say to make this a better experience? They're just being taken care of.

[00:51:17] Emily Thompson: And this all happens because you're working with dream customers, right? Because you know who you are, what it is that you are doing, what it is, your best out, what it is you're going to deliver, because you are the best at doing it.

[00:51:28] And you're doing it with a dream customer who is completely aligned in there for you to do it, which is why you have to say no. Here's to people who are not dream customers and really position yourself to attract the dream customers who are going to benefit the most from what you're doing. Because a follow-up like result of this is that the people who get served and the best way that.

[00:51:54] Are there to serve them. They're going to go tell all of their friends, right? They're going to shout about you on social media. They're going to link you in their newsletter, whatever it may be. And they will become those word of mouth general marketing generators that just builds your business in a way that you settling for a not dream customer, right?

[00:52:16] That you, that you not showing up with the boundaries and the understanding of what you do whenever you're doing those things. You're not creating that like a positive feedback loop that brings so much good stuff to your business. So, you know, fall what happens next and why it's so important to make sure you're aligning in these ways.

[00:52:36] Kathleen Shannon: Well, and this is why it's important to know who you are, because I've had situations where I've agreed to do things that I'm not the best at for my clients, because I want to be more full service or because I really want to help them. And I'm sure that I can, but I don't have systems and processes set up around.

[00:52:54] Helping them in the way that they need help. So then there's more opportunities for messing it up. There's more opportunities for me to not be doing my best work, which is not going to create the best experience. And again, this is about looking at every single part of your process from how you're positioning yourself on your website to attract your dream customer, to how you're onboarding them and setting next steps along the way to how you're communicating those next steps and what they can expect next to then final delivery.

[00:53:25] So for me, for example, even just in the past year, I was like, you know, what's not dreamy about the Braid method experience is sometimes I feel like at the end of it, we're just like, okay, bye. And it feels like it falls flat. So then I was like, okay, we need a process for sending client gifts even a month later.

[00:53:45] And so we set up that system. I was even more recently starting to think about how. Yeah, Almanac supply company for our client gifts. We love working with them. I was also thinking about like, how do I deliver these files in a way that feels more comprehensive and intuitive? So I created a PDF, one sheet detailing, everything that they get in their Dropbox link of files.

[00:54:10] I recently also is thinking about my ongoing clients. So our dream customer at Braid Creative has evolved. Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here, but it's relevant. Our dream customer has evolved a little bit where we're not just taking people through the Braid method, but doing more ongoing client work.

[00:54:26] And I was thinking, I cannot schedule a meeting every time I'm going to present like this little project, but how do I create that feeling that we're so good at in sharing work without having to schedule another Zoom. So I started using Loom. Are you familiar with this, Emily? Yeah. So I started using Loom to present project work to clients where I can show up with my face.

[00:54:49] I can walk them through the project. It feels collaborative and not so final where I'm sending over a PDF. I can say, here's this project I put together. This could change. Here's why I did this. It just feels a lot more casual, which is what I'm best at I'm best at like just casually explaining what I did and how I did it versus sending over a long email that no one's going to read anyway, or that at least my dream client doesn't have time to read.

[00:55:11] So you know, are little things that you can do along the way to make sure that you're always upgrading and tailoring the dream experience for your dream client. So like you said, Emily, you can continue to leave a good impression and an impression that will create a word of mouth generated marketing plan, which speaking of, I think that we did a word of mouth episode, didn't we?

[00:55:36] Yes. Let's be sure to link that in the show notes because that's a good one.

[00:55:41] Emily Thompson: Yes, but as episode number 213, if anyone wants to scroll back and check that one out, it's one of my favorites. Perfect. So you hit on this a couple of times already, but I want to save this one more time for people in the back, and that is, does your dream customer ever change?

[00:56:02] Kathleen Shannon: Absolutely. As you evolve, so will your dream customer is, might happen because you've deepened your expertise. You have time and experience on your side. You might be pivoting your offerings. You may shift how you share and what platforms you're showing up on. Maybe you've gone from Facebook to deleting your Facebook account, and now you're building up your newsletter list and that might change how your dream customer interacts with you.

[00:56:28] Maybe your prices have changed as these changes happen and evolve. So will the kind of person that you attract, even your own hobbies and interests and style or spirituality can attract a new kind of dream client. So don't forget that people hire people and the energy that you are giving off. This is where I get a little boo that will attract a different kind of person.

[00:56:51] And so this is why it's so important to always examine along the way, what is working and what isn't. That way it's never a sudden change. It's just natural tweaks and refinement as you go. So it never feels like a huge disruption to your business. It's just an ongoing conversation that you're having with yourself with your CEO day, you know, with your business partners, with your business bestie and with your clients.

[00:57:23] I've also one other thing I want to be sure to touch on because you actually talked about this earlier. Can you have a couple of different kinds of dream customers and yes, you absolutely can. So I've noticed even at Braid Creative, that many of my own dream clients have evolved to have tiers of dream customers.

[00:57:42] So maybe it's a life coach. Who is also an aspiring author, their dream client, isn't just their one-on-one clients anymore. It's also maybe landing that literary agent or publisher the agent becomes their dream client. Or maybe my client is a consultant who is wanting to launch an online community. And they're looking for more PR around their offerings.

[00:58:05] Now, their dream customer, isn't just a community member. Like someone who's going to sign up for their online service or their club or whatever it might be. Their dream customer now is also maybe podcast hosts that they can reach out to and get onto their platforms and then reach their dream audience.

[00:58:24] And this is also why it's so important to know who your dream client is. Is because then you can tap other people who share a similar dream client and you can combine forces and start to share information and trade projects and trade work with each other. And you can supplement each other's content and even project work.

[00:58:48] So, you know, your dream client can be tiered from like, not to use like industry lingo, but like from a business to customer side, to a business, to business side. And that's what I'm really seeing in the work that I'm doing lately. So think about who your tiers of dream clients are beyond just that one-on-one person, because that's how you might even start to scale a little bit, and evolve who your own dream customer is.

[00:59:16] Emily Thompson: Perfect. Kathleen, you have perfectly filled this hole in our content.

[00:59:21] Kathleen Shannon: I'm so glad that we're a good fit.

[00:59:25] Emily Thompson: Thank you so much. Tell everyone where they can hang out with you these days.

[00:59:29] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. so at breedcreative.com, I have a ton of blog posts. All of our worksheets, there are free. You don't even have to sign up with an email.

[00:59:38] You can just direct download a PDF. So peruse our blog and then you can find me personally. Well, Braid also has an Instagram Braid Creative on Instagram, and then you can find me personally on Instagram. I'm on there a lot. It's @andkathleen. That's where I like to show up.

[00:59:55] Emily Thompson: I love it. And what's making you feel most boss these days?

[01:00:00] Kathleen Shannon: Well, being able to chop some firewood.

[01:00:03] Emily Thompson: Yeah.

[01:00:04] Kathleen Shannon: That makes me feel boss you.

[01:00:06] Emily Thompson: It is quite an exercise.

[01:00:09] Kathleen Shannon: I love it. I feel like I need more, more opportunities to chop some firewood in my life.

[01:00:15] Emily Thompson: Would it be weird if I sent you an axe for Christmas?

[01:00:18] Kathleen Shannon: I would love to get an axe for Christmas. I wonder if he wants you to call whenever what was David saying?

[01:00:25] It's called not a mall. A mall mall. Yeah. Spell it a M A L L?

[01:00:38] Emily Thompson: I don't know. Hold on M A U L

[01:00:45] Kathleen Shannon: I maul somebody with.

[01:00:47] Yes, I yet might actually be where that came from.

[01:00:51] Oh, my gosh, my biggest fear. Did I tell you this while we were at the cabin? My biggest fear, because it was scary. It was really dark. We were in the middle of the woods.

[01:01:01] Some of the windows didn't have blinds on them. I just imagined like looking out my window and seeing Jason out in the woods, staring at me like that kind of situation missed opportunities and I was falling asleep and I was like, okay. My mantra is, so my whole intention for the month has been like, I trust, like I trust that

[01:01:20] I'm safe. I'm trust that my kid's going to be okay. Sending them back to school, you know, trust, trust, trust. So I was like, okay, I trust that an axe murder, isn't going to break in. But then as I was falling asleep, I got scared that I was going to do some sleepwalking.

[01:01:34] Emily Thompson: And then like, you're going to be the axe murderer.

[01:01:37] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. There were no less than three axes in the house. And I was so afraid that I was going to take an axe and then axe murder you in my sleep. And then it would be like this Nancy grace situation where they're like, she murdered her ex business partner. And then I'd have to be like, what, what am I getting out of this?

[01:01:56] It's not like I'm getting a business out of it. It was, I was sleepwalking. So then I thought about moving the axes outside so that I wouldn't get them on accident. Anyway, point is, we're all still alive. I did an axe murder anybody in my sleep, but I got real scared. I'm scared. Just talking about it. You did a great job in my worst nightmare.

[01:02:21] Emily Thompson: You did not kill me. Good job. No one killed it.

[01:02:23] Kathleen Shannon: That's what's making me feel bosses that were, I feel boss because we didn't get axe murdered in the middle of the woods.

[01:02:31] Emily Thompson: Success.

[01:02:35] Kathleen Shannon: All right, you do the work. Be boss don't axe, murder anybody. Get vaccinated.

[01:02:45] Emily Thompson: All right, boss, because you're here. I know you want to be a better creative at business owner, which means I've got something for you. Each week the team at Being Boss is scouring the news, the best entrepreneurial publications and updates and releases of the apps and tools that run our businesses and is curating it all into a weekly email that delivers the must-know tips and tactics in the realms of mindset, money and productivity.

[01:03:08] This email is called Brewed. We brew it up for you each week to give you the insight you need to make decisions and move forward in your creative business. Check it out now and sign up for yourself at beingboss.club/brewed. That's being boss dot clubs slash B R E W E D. Now until next time, do the work, be boss.[01:04:00]