Intentional Content Creation with Kathleen Shannon

[00:00:00] Corey Winter: Hey there, listeners! Corey from the Being Boss team here. I have a quick question for you. Do you want to get more out of what we do here at Being Boss? Sure. You like this podcast, but did you know that Emily's recording monthly episodes of Making A Business, a show that follows along as she builds her other business,

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[00:00:40] Emily Thompson: Welcome to Being Boss, a podcast for creatives, business owners and entrepreneurs who want to take control of their work and live life on their own terms. I'm your host, Emily Thompson. And today I'm joined by Kathleen Shannon for the first of a two-part conversation about the state of creating content diving into the pros and cons of content creation and how it has evolved with a touch on current events.

[00:01:05] You can find all the tools, books, and links we referenced on the show notes at www.beingboss.club. And if you like this episode, be sure to subscribe to the show and share us with a friend.

[00:01:18] Want to build a more streamlined business, but want to do it in quick spurts of actionable end goal? Then you've got to check out iDigress, a show hosted by Troy Sandidge brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network. With shows under 30 minutes, iDigress helps eliminate complexity, complications and confusion in your business with frameworks and strategies to achieve scalable and sustainable success and does so with episodes, like how to attract your ideal customer in an oversaturated market and hourly rates versus project pricing charged for value for results instead of time. Learn more and listen to I digress wherever you get your podcasts.[00:02:00]

[00:02:03] Kathleen. Shannon is the partner and creative director at Braid Creative, a branding agency she co-founded with her sister 10 years ago. Kathleen is passionate about cohesive and articulate brands that reflect who you are, what you do and attract your dreamiest customer. Kathleen is also the co-founder and former co-host of this show Being Boss.

[00:02:23] And for those of you who are new here, you can find her accompanying me for the first 239 episodes of the Being Boss podcast with a couple peppered in since then.

[00:02:34] Oh my God. Kathleen, are you ready to do this?

[00:02:38] Kathleen Shannon: I'm ready. Can I describe my outfit for you please do, because it's adorable. I am wearing a Valore tracksuit.

[00:02:45] It's all brown matchy matchy.

[00:02:48] Emily Thompson: Yup.

[00:02:49] Kathleen Shannon: With a camel colored oversize Baret. And a golden necklace. I feel very like Tony soprano meets Paris Hilton meets Holly Golightly.

[00:03:04] Emily Thompson: Is it all right? I didn't realize that that was a whole tracksuit that's that makes this all even better. Oh my God. Your sheets scanning and showing it to me.

[00:03:12] Yes ma'am! I love it. I love your outfit.

[00:03:17] Kathleen Shannon: Thank you.

[00:03:19] Emily Thompson: Let's talk about what we're talking about today, which I know is your favorite thing to do talk. It's not everyone. Just so you know, Kathleen hates talking about what she's going to talk about, but, a couple of weeks ago, some things happened in the news and we were on Marco polo and Kathleen was like, I'm so glad I don't have to talk about this.

[00:03:39] Can I come on the podcast to talk about this? So here we are. You ready to dive in?

[00:03:44] Kathleen Shannon: Here we are talking about Joe Rogan, just a little bit. We're talking about more than just Joe Rogan. We're going to be talking about content creation. We're going to be talking about publishing your work. We're going to be talking about when you're the product versus being the creator.

[00:04:02] We're going to be talking about platforms and advertising. It is going to be a whole, I do like talking about what I'm going to talk about because. I'm not entirely sure where we're going with this conversation. So I just want to caveat here that this is very much a working out what we're thinking real time conversation with some background of experience and thoughts and insights and opinions, because you know, we've got them.

[00:04:33] Emily Thompson: I'm excited to dive into this one and I'm really excited.

[00:04:35] I feel like we're just like opening a can of worms and we're just going to like, see what happens, just see what happens. So we are going to start a little bit about Joe Rogan and this is not going to be a whole episode about this, but I think it is important to give the context of. This, this one sort of piece of thing happening in the world and sort of give our take on it and how it, how it plays into this bigger picture.

[00:05:00] Because I even want to look at this in terms of like a state of content creation, how have things evolved in this world because they have evolved. And really, what does it mean for you all as, as business owners in a world who, you know, is being told that content creation on the internet is going to make you a millionaire or whatever it is that you're being told.

[00:05:20] So you can make some good decisions and, and move forward with your efforts in a way that feels aligned. And has you prepared for the world that is content creation? Kathleen and I have been in this world for how many years, Kathleen.

[00:05:36] Kathleen Shannon: Well, I mean, I had a live journal like in the late 1990s,

[00:05:42] Emily Thompson: ditto, ditto.

[00:05:43] So let's say that

[00:05:44] Kathleen Shannon: long, but I think that we were, you know, in that first wave of blogging back in 2008, that really kind of when it was so.

[00:05:54] Emily Thompson: 15 years ago. Oh my, come on, sit with that one for a second. Kathleen. So we've been here, we've watched this thing sort of happened in developing this thing is light is content creation, right?

[00:06:07] How it started from these like sweet little roots back in the day and has turned into a thing that is making national headlines that is causing such a ruckus that is like, you know, effecting stock prices. And it's nuts to think about.

[00:06:25] Kathleen Shannon: How dare mainstream media underestimate us from the beginning .

[00:06:32] Emily Thompson: Indeed.

[00:06:33] So let's, let's begin with, let's begin with the thing that, that sort of started this conversation, Joe Rogan and everything that's happened as of February, 2022. But I will say that I've been watching this Joe Rogan thing for years. I have been bitching about this Joe Rogan thing for years, and really in particular, Spotify taking him exclusive and really what that meant for the podcasting industry in general.

[00:07:02] I mean, I don't really give two shits about Joe Rogan. I've never listened to a full episode. I probably never will. So this is not me really slamming his content as like a first person listener. But it is some concern as someone who makes a living in this industry and seeing how the industry was changing and unsure, unsure what that was going to mean for everything.

[00:07:25] So I've been watching it for a while and it's been really interesting to see what has shaken out over the past couple of weeks and months, because y'all, I saw it coming.

[00:07:35] Kathleen Shannon: You did see it coming. I remember you being alarmed whenever Spotify did this exclusive deal and you have always had this like finger on the pulse psychic ability to see what's coming next in content creation.

[00:07:52] We started Being Boss whenever you pitched it as an idea without, I don't even think you had ever listened to podcasts at the time, but I had been listening to serial and I was like, yes, let's do it. I want to podcast. It was still in the newbie stages of it. Right. However, I did listen to Joe Rogan. And so I thought I'd share a little bit about the timeline of Joe Rogan.

[00:08:13] Just to give everyone a quick overview. If you want more details on this, I highly suggest listening to the daily NPR episode on Joe Rogan. I can send you a link if you want to include it in the show notes, but basically here's the background. Joe Rogan started his show in 2003. So kind of like Mark Marin and those guys who've been doing podcasting before we even had the word podcasting.

[00:08:39] I think that he had a show before then, but it was super fringe. He was talking to MMA fighters, UFC fighters, and comedians. Now, interestingly enough, I used to train with a bunch of MMA fighters, so, and I've always been really into comedy, right. Standup comedy. So there is this interesting intersection where he was podcasting on stuff that I was interested in.

[00:09:05] Not that I was interested in fighting necessarily, but some of my acquaintances were literally on his show and are still on his show from time to time. So I have in fact, listened to episodes. Yeah, probably starting in around 2009 and 2000 new, probably I wasn't even listening to him until about 2013, which is whenever he started his YouTube show.

[00:09:26] So he's been having a show since 2003. In 2013, he moves to YouTube, which is also kind of in its infancy, right? As like a platform. And it's super long form. It's not edited, but he has really reputable guests, like Neil deGrasse Tyson, one of our favorites. And he's talking about things like diet and supplements and working out and psychedelics and drugs.

[00:09:54] So like with comedians, it's the perfect intersection of all the things I want to listen to and hear about why I'm working out. So by about 2015, he has 11 million listeners per episode.

[00:10:09] So that's a lot.

[00:10:10] Emily Thompson: And just by contacts Being Boss has like, I think 11 million listens in all over the seven years that we've been here.

[00:10:19] Right like that, that is the difference here of like, we've been around for a long time. We have a top point, 1% show in all of podcasts and we've had 11 million over the course of our lifetime. He's having 11 million listeners per episode. Just hold that in your knocking for a sec.

[00:10:40] Kathleen Shannon: So in may of 2020, Spotify creates an exclusive deal with Joe Rogan.

[00:10:47] This was a big deal. And I cannot believe that that was after the pandemic started in March of 2020. So it was May of 2020. It was right around the time that I was leaving Being Boss. And at the time that I was leaving Being Boss, there were a lot of opportunities, you know? And so this is interesting to think about it in the context of how we were creating content.

[00:11:09] And we were having a lot of opportunities come up, like exclusive deals with either spart partners or sponsors or platforms. I think that we even talked about like, what would we do if we had an exclusive deal with Spotify even before this ever happened or an exclusive deal with somebody, right. There's that other podcasting platform, what's it called?

[00:11:32] What's his face that British comedian is on there. Luminary, I think it's called luminary.

[00:11:37] Emily Thompson: Yeah. There's a couple of luminary. Wondery I don't know if they're exclusive. I know there was some tones.

[00:11:42] Kathleen Shannon: Wondery is on all of the, so this is interesting, this is interesting to know, like Wondery, for example, is a podcasting group, but they're distributed on all of the different platforms like Spotify, and they're just basically like an advertising network is what it is, is that Wondery coordinates the advertising to go on the shows and the contents.

[00:12:05] And of course, with stuff like Wondery, there is kind of a brand umbrella where if you're listening to a Wondery show, you can expect X, Y, and Z. Right? So I. I'm getting ahead of myself. Cause I do like podcasting groups like that, that kind of curate stuff. So for example, I wanted Being Boss to be that a little bit.

[00:12:25] Like what if we had a group of shows under the Being Boss umbrella? I even thought about it more recently. Like what if I start podcasting again and how to show under the Being Boss umbrella, right? It could still happen. Maybe it could not, but that's dumb. I don't want to get ahead of myself back to Joe Rogan.

[00:12:44] So Joe Rogan gets acquired by Spotify. This is whenever it rings the alarm for Emily. Emily's like, what is happening here? What is happening? Why did that, like, why did that ring the alarm for you? Why was that concerning for you? Because for me at the time, I was like, whatever, who cares?

[00:13:00] Emily Thompson: The biggest thing for me was I, I've never been a huge fan of Spotify is advertising model and I'll just maybe kind of leave it at that and just all the tracking that's happening.

[00:13:14] And just, I've heard things about some of their business practices and things. I'm just not a huge fan. And so hearing that Spotify was getting in my industry, I was like, oh shit. And like with such a big play, such a massive play because at the time of the deal was happening, it was, you know, theories that it was between a hundred and $200 million deal.

[00:13:37] I think over the course of the past two years, a hundred has become the most like commonly touted place where that deal landed. But I recently read something that like 200 and over is really where that deal was. And I knew that if they were doing something like that and for someone like that, then I, something smelled fishy.

[00:13:59] [00:14:00] I didn't know what it was, but it was definitely rings and bells for me. And a big thing that was coming up for me is what is this going to mean for indie podcasters? Like if everyone starts putting themselves behind paywalls and these paywalls are like massive paywalls, like Spotify, what does it do for those of us who are just trying to show up and create content?

[00:14:20] How is this going to completely shake up our industry?

[00:14:23] Kathleen Shannon: You know what it makes me think of. It makes me think of doping in the Olympics or doping, even in fighting. So like there's different rules even in MMA on whether or not you can use performance enhancing drugs. And it's like, how do you compete if you're not also on testosterone or these, you know, other performance enhancing drugs, how do you compete against the people who are?

[00:14:48] And so it is like that for the indie podcasters where we're just trying to show up and do our thing. How do we compete against these huge deals if they become the norm for the standard?

[00:15:00] Emily Thompson: For sure, for sure. And for who it was, was like, like you could have chosen anybody in the world and you're going to choose Joe Rogan.

[00:15:09] Kathleen Shannon: Okay. We'll see. And it's funny because at the time I was probably still listening to an episode here or there. So I, you know, in my circles it was the standard. It was kind of the norm. Yeah. So it didn't seem like that big of a deal, I guess. Cause I was like, yeah, it doesn't everyone listened to him. Like it just seems like Oprah getting a show on ABC.

[00:15:29] You know what I mean? Like to me it just kind of felt a little bit like that. Listen, my stance on Joe Rogan has changed since the pandemic, basically fuck that dude. Don't like him. Don't care about him. People who listen to him, call everyone else sheeps. Whenever in fact they are sheep's to Joe Rogan. So that's what I got to say about that.

[00:15:51] But so basically here's, what's come out with the drama since the pandemic is that Rogan who kind of takes some anti-vax views has this controversial doctor who is anti-vax on his podcast and he lends credibility to the anti-vax movement because he's a doctor. Right.

[00:16:10] Emily Thompson: And to the millions and millions of people, this is not like some like small podcast who has, you know, 20,000 downloads or whatever, which is still actually a big indie podcast.

[00:16:20] Right. But it's not like that is, it's like speaking to the masses.

[00:16:26] Kathleen Shannon: Right. Like, I think that probably Joe Rogan was responsible for the whole ivermectin conversation of like taking horse pills to get rid of COVID. Anyway, I want to talk to you much about that, but basically Neil young and Joni Mitchell, who probably a lot of Joe Rogan listeners have never even heard of are like, we're pulling our music from Spotify.

[00:16:50] You did a really great, Being Boss newsletter about Joe Rogan. It was so good. Be sure to read that you all, if you haven't, can you include a link to that in the show? It will be a link to that. Brene Brown , our friend Brene responds and is like, I'm pausing my podcast until I have more information, you know, and it's just real interesting, like what's going down.

[00:17:17] Then I think that really, the next level of it is whenever indie, R R E India, Ari calls out Joe Rogan, and says that she's also pulling her music from Spotify, but not because of the anti-vax stuff, but because there is this compilation of Joe Rogan using the N word and saying some homophobic transphobic, like just some awful garbage stuff.

[00:17:41] Right. And that's whenever, like, for a lot of people, it was the nail in the coffin. Right. So not cool. Not a good guy.

[00:17:50] Emily Thompson: And wait, this for me though, was one of those things where like Spotify had had this in their pocket, you know, because overnight there's like, you know, I started seeing headlines that Spotify has removed like 77 episodes.

[00:18:03] Like out of hundreds, you knew exactly which 77 had these words. And it didn't yet. Unless of course they have like, you know, transcriptions and robots and things, which is likely also the case. But I also think it's very likely that if they did their due diligence before giving this man $200 million, they probably listened to every single episode and flag each one as problematic.

[00:18:22] So that if, and when a problem arises, oh, it'll be easy for us to quietly take these down overnight.

[00:18:28] Kathleen Shannon: That is the issue here. So Spotify chose their choice and they choose, well, not only do you give this dude a hundred million dollar deal, they choose not to cancel him. Meanwhile, claiming neutrality. I just don't know how you can claim to be neutral.

[00:18:46] Whenever you're also giving someone a hundred million dollars. That's not neutral.

[00:18:51] Emily Thompson: 200 plus between a hundred and 250, I imagine. Right. But like, here's a couple of things. One, I don't know what Spotify should do at all. Like I have saying, I have, I have no recommendations to Spotify. Like you made your bed.

[00:19:10] Kathleen Shannon: We only pay grade.

[00:19:11] Like that's where I was like, so grateful that I don't have to think about it. Right? Like I'm not making decisions for Spotify nor do I have the bandwidth to think about what they should do, because I don't care.

[00:19:21] Emily Thompson: It wouldn't have made this decision in the first place, but a couple like one, not for like censoring those or like, not for.

[00:19:29] Love some first amendment. Obviously I'm here talking my smack all the time though my snack is not actually shared here on this podcast, which is another conversation altogether.

[00:19:40] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah, because you hold yourself accountable to your values and your mission. And I feel like that's where the issue is here.

[00:19:46] Emily Thompson: Yes.

[00:19:46] That is absolutely where the issue is. Well, it's where one of the many issues is. So I don't think that they should necessarily, like, I don't think they should censor what he is saying. I don't even know that they should like necessarily deep platform him though. That's what I'm doing probably more for than anything.

[00:20:08] One of the things that I sort of brought to you as we were having this conversation via Marco polo a couple of weeks ago is one of the things that no one's really considering about, you know, these calls, the platform, him and take him off Spotify and, you know, sort of let him back loose in the world because that's exactly what it would do.

[00:20:25] If Spotify canceled the. Is that you can actually look at the search engine optimization data around Joe Rogan and see that whenever he went behind the Spotify paywall, his influence literally decreased by half. And by that, what I mean is people started, or people were searching for Joe Rogan on Google half as often as they were whenever he was just open for everyone to listen to.

[00:20:50] So it's literally probably better for the world if he is behind that Spotify paywall, because then not just everybody can go listen to the nonsense that he and his guests are potentially allegedly spelling.

[00:21:04] Kathleen Shannon: Well, that's interesting. That's interesting to note because Spotify is still free. So what if people are Googling Spotify?

[00:21:13] You know, I don't know that the Google SEO necessarily reflects impact.

[00:21:19] Emily Thompson: And that it, it does, it does at the volume at which it is happening. I think it absolutely does. And even if I'm looking at, you know, Joe Rogan, Spotify, like that search volume is so tiny that like those words together aren't making any difference.

[00:21:33] Like he is literally less accessible, very legitimate, right behind Spotify than he is when he is openly podcasting on all of the platforms on YouTube

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[00:23:14] Kathleen Shannon: So then what's interesting about this is, you know, is the issue really Joe Rogan or is it about how we're creating content, how we're publishing our content, how we're distributing our content, how we're gatekeeping our content and how we are being compensated for our content?

[00:23:33] Emily Thompson: Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, I think the problem is that content creation, like just got caught doing drugs, you know, just got caught, making a bad decision.

[00:23:46] Like we never would have done drugs as kids when we were just like blogging back in the day.

[00:23:53] Kathleen Shannon: I think it's also that life, you know, content creation has become this unregulated orgy of, that's not, you know, like there's no rules where there are rules and boundaries. It's created by people like Spotify.

[00:24:09] Like they're creating the rules and how much do we rely on them to tell us what's acceptable and what isn't and where do we have influence over what's acceptable and what isn't. So it kind of reminds me of after this Joe Rogan thing, I saw a lot of people, boycotting, Spotify, and selfishly, I was like, I've spent years curating these playlists and listen

[00:24:35] I am all for a solid boycott. I haven't eaten at chick-fil-A to my own detriment for years because those chicken nuggets are the best, but right. Like we're still boycotting. Chick-fil-A right. Like I, anyway, and this is an issue that's come up with a lot of things over the past few years, as we become more aligned with companies that reflect our values, like, I'm cool with wearing Nike because of their support for Colin Kaepernick, right?

[00:25:04] Like there are certain things where I'm like, yes, that is a brand that I'm willing to support and share on my body. Because I do like their values and it is something that we have to think about, but it also reminds me of the call to stop using straws, to save the environment. Whenever you not using a straw is not going to, it's really not doing anything.

[00:25:27] It's a symbol more than anything. And I don't drink out of, sometimes I do. I use plastic water bottles. I don't use single use plastic as much as possible, really more as a symbol than anything. And as a, as a, almost like not ritual, but this theme that represents my care for the earth. Right. But then I'm doing, I'm trying to do other things like make bigger changes or at least thinking that my little impact is adding up with everyone

[00:25:57] else's little impact. When in fact the people that could have the greatest impact are the people who are causing all the pollution. So it could be that, you know, corporations like Amazon, apple, and Spotify have a bigger impact on the environment than me not drinking out of a straw. Right. And then policy makers, policy makers could make it illegal to pollute, right.

[00:26:23] Or do whatever they do using their own expertise and wisdom to. Make bigger change. So that's kind of how I feel about the Spotify boycott. Like we caught them if you want to or not, I actually don't have opinions. I don't want it. Whatever

[00:26:39] Emily Thompson: makes you feel better about the situation a hundred percent, whatever makes you feel better?

[00:26:43] Cause I don't think any of those things are really going to make huge impacts either he's still going to be there. And is that the worst thing? I don't know. But it, it has had us thinking a whole lot about what this means for sort of how one, how we got here, like how we got from like everyone just wanting to blog about their food back in the day to now we have people making multimillion plus deals.

[00:27:14] There's a siren.

[00:27:16] Kathleen Shannon: I like the siren in real podcasting, in the real world where emergencies happen,

[00:27:23] Emily Thompson: they do happen. So where people are making or getting these ridiculous deals, conflict is causing drops in stock prices. Like all, like, how did we get here? How did we get from cute little beginnings of content creation and the internet to this, and what happens next?

[00:27:40] Because we have to learn from our mistakes. Hopefully Spotify is Joe Rogan is probably not. I think that, and, but like, we can also, we can learn from this. And one of the things that I really took away from this whole scenario is, well, To actually, there's a thing that I took from it, but there's this other view of it.

[00:28:03] And one is, especially those of us who were active on Instagram or at least have been within the past five years, we have developed this belief that all institutions should be for. So every corporation in the world should have some positive impact mission, and that's adorable, but that's not necessarily the case.

[00:28:25] And we have sort of built this into our expectation of companies in a way that, like, that just has us really mad about everything. Everything. I think we should be in most cases, but I think that we need to sort of disconnect this. Maybe not disconnect, but just realize that not every decision a corporation like Spotify is going to make is for good.

[00:28:51] That's not why they're here.

[00:28:52] Kathleen Shannon: No, it's for-profit. Yeah. And I think that what I also see along those lines is a sense of entitlement and ownership. Just because you have a feed on Instagram does not mean that you own that feed. And we've been talking about this for years and it's always going to be this way.

[00:29:08] If you're publishing on someone else's platform, that is not your own, you do not own that you rent

[00:29:14] Emily Thompson: it. And Instagram is doing and like Facebook and Spotify. And like every, every business that we all sort of engage with on our daily is making questionable decisions somewhere. And in fact, many of them have no real for good impact outlined in their bylaws at all in they're fine with that.

[00:29:35] Is that good and preferred? No, but like that is also the reality of it. And so I think that's where the decision comes of like, you know, change your stuff or leave and like, you need to make the choice for yourself. And to some extent, I don't know, go find a cause that's easier to fight.

[00:29:56] Kathleen Shannon: Maybe it's also kind of, it feels a little bit like, Like a scale, you know, like a pros and cons.

[00:30:03] It feels a lot like parenting. There's never a good choice. You're never going to make the good choice, but you can make the best choice. Right? So for example, with the Spotify thing, I felt kind of guilty for not boycotting it because I don't want to lose my years of curated playlist, but also because I want easy access to podcasts, like Bernay brown and armchair expert, where they are devoted to, you know, especially Bernay causes like black lives matter and social justice and climate and all of the things doing good in the world, armchair expert, having conversations about mental health.

[00:30:40] And they're just fun to listen to you. And so I do listen to those podcasts, I hit follow it and subscribe within Spotify to those podcasts, not to Joe Rogan's. So what does that mean? What does that say? And just kind of choosing my choice there.

[00:30:57] Emily Thompson: Exactly. So that was sort of that's. That is my takeaway.

[00:31:00] Like on one side, there's this reality that these big corporations don't give a shit. Y'all like. If you were still here thinking they should and that they will, like, you're wasting your time. I think on to some extent,

[00:31:13] Kathleen Shannon: energy, you're wasting your energy.

[00:31:15] Emily Thompson: For sure, but what you can do and what I absolutely expect everyone to do, who is listening to those podcasts, wanting to, you know, be boss of your work in life is for you to do better.

[00:31:26] Because I do think that when all of us stopped drinking with our plastic straws, as it may be, we can collectively make an impact, which is why whenever I am here, I am creating and sharing content through the lens of my values that I will hold your, does Joe Rogan have values? I'd be interested to know what they are.

[00:31:48] I bet he'd be interested to know what they are. But I do know that I have them and I know that this brand has them. And this is the way that I want to show up and create content and fill the world of podcast. And just general online content creation with the kind of soul centered, impactful, do no harm to Amy body kind of stuff that I want you to listen to.

[00:32:15] And that I want to listen to as well. So that's really what I took away from, or one of the big things that I took away from this whole scenario is that. Joe Rogan's been around so long that he can just say what he wants. I never want to be in that place. I, even if I am here 20, 30 years, I still want to operate through the lens of values, one of which is doing no harm.

[00:32:45] And so if I can do that, I want to instill it to you listening to do that. As you are navigating the world of content creation, whether that is on your blog or on your Instagram or in your podcast or on your newsletter, filter yourself. Edit yourself, make sure you like your points of view have been sent through multiple different lenses for it to come out on the other side in a way that you actually feel good about.

[00:33:14] You never have to go back at some point and be like, oh, we should probably delete those 77 episodes.

[00:33:21] Kathleen Shannon: But you know what we have, we've made mistakes. We have said things that might be tone deaf or off base because we didn't know better. Here's the difference? Yeah, here's the difference is that our intention I've heard this like intention or impact over intention, which sometimes I grapple with, because I think that our intention has always been to, for example, do no harm.

[00:33:49] And then whenever our impact has not reflected that value or that intention. Guess what our community calls us in and they say, Hey, you said this thing, it was a little bit insensitive. Whether it was like abelist or whatever, and then guess what we learned better and we did better afterwards. So that's the big difference is that we didn't make a half-assed apology.

[00:34:13] We were like, oh, dang. Didn't know that. And so this is to say, whenever you are creating content, you will make mistakes along the way you will. Whether it's just looking back at old posts and cringing, because you were an awful writer, which I have done with my previous blog posts or accidentally saying something like, I think that even Bernay brown, she mentioned this recently having said spirit animals.

[00:34:37] She called, I think she called mark Duplass, her spirit animal in one of her interviews. And her community was like, whoa, Hey. You can't say that that's insensitive. And she was like, whoa, I didn't know. Right. But she didn't get canceled because guess what? Her intention in our impact is greater than her mistakes.

[00:34:55] So just make your intention, your values greater than the mistakes that you’ll make along the way. And you'll be okay because I think that whenever you try and be perfect, it paralyzes you and keeps you from showing up at all. And we believe in creating content. We believe that content is a great place to, again, engage with your community, to share your expertise and insights and experience, and to make your own difference in your own little corner of the world.

[00:35:26] Okay.

[00:35:27] Emily Thompson: Absolutely all of those things, because this is a platform that we obviously still believe in a hundred percent, one way or the other, whether it's podcasting or Instagram or blogging or tech talk or any, or any of the platforms creating content and showing up in this way. It's as I was sort of building out some of my thoughts, one of the things that I put in here is that one of the things that you started braid around was the idea of capturing, shaping, and sharing content and how that, that literally has fed into everything that you've done for the past decade.

[00:36:04] Kathleen Shannon: I love that you say that because I'm always thinking about that whenever it comes to what I'm creating and what I'm sharing. So that has been one of the backbones of, or, you know, almost like my own personal pillars. I wouldn't necessarily call it a value, but it is kind of pillars or a filter for how I show up.

[00:36:21] So I like to capture shape and share because how we're showing up on Instagram, how we're showing up on this podcast, how we're showing up anywhere is not the full story. You're never going to see all of someone's life or all of their experience. So you have to decide what you're going to capture. So that's kind of this curating process.

[00:36:41] I mean, you had to think about how you're going to shape it. So forming it in,

[00:36:45] Emily Thompson: how you're going to edit it.

[00:36:47] Kathleen Shannon: You're going to edit it. Yeah. So yeah, I kind of forming the thoughts around it and this is also why I love podcasting because it is in fact, whenever I think about the transcript of this, I get freaked out because it's not going to read the same on paper.

[00:37:04] Sound's coming out of our mouths. That's what I love about podcasting is that there is some nuance. There is some grappling with issues. There is just a lot more conversation and exchange around ideas. That's, what's really fun about it, but that's also what can be a little bit dangerous about it. So anyway, capturing, shaping, we learned early on in shaping the podcast that who we have on as guests matters to our brand, you know?

[00:37:33] And so this again also goes back to making sure that your values align with the stuff that you buy, where you put your dollars, you know, and for me, that's why I pay for stuff like Hulu and YouTube. So that. I don't have to see advertising. Not that I think that all advertising is bad. I allow some people to track me and to advertise to me because I like what they have to offer.

[00:38:01] Right. Anyway, and then sharing, you know, and sharing is sharing is a value of mine. Like putting ourselves out here, we only live once we're all gonna die. We might as well show up as we are. With who we are, so we can make the world a better place while we're here.

[00:38:19] Emily Thompson: Right. And that's funnily, I feel like that's one of the biggest evolutionary things that I want to sort of poke at with content creation is how the, like, that lens of authenticity was like clear and then completely opaque, like for a hot minute of like, especially sort of those Instagram prime years, but how it is becoming more important for content now, where I feel like we went through a couple of years where, you know, let's edit this as much as we possibly can, airbrushes everywhere, styling everything.

[00:38:57] Really making sure that everything we share is perfection, for the internet to just turn around and be like, actually that's fake, let's clean things up and get back to being authentic, which is something. I talked about with, with Andrea Jones in an episode earlier this year, we'll include notes to that or links to that in the show notes around one of the things that's really sort of working right now in social media is this return to like sincere authenticity.

[00:39:26] You can scroll through tech talk and nobody's got their makeup on, and I love that for them, right. Or, or even I think she touted at the time and I've seen this a whole lot as well is Twitter threads right now are just running rampant. It's not, you know, however many characters, a single tweet is anymore.

[00:39:46] It's as many as you want to pile into a thread, as you possibly can, it's going deeper. It's being more authentic. And I love that. I love that. We've sort of, I guess I love that we experienced that because we needed to so that we could turn around and get back to being super often.

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[00:41:04] Kathleen Shannon: Yeah. So, you know, I love me some Kardashians, right? I know sincerely I love me some Kardashians. And one thing that I've noticed is, you know, if you look at Kylie's feed versus Courtney, who's like, Courtney's one of my favorites. There's a stark difference. And so Kylie is of that highly curated, highly edited.

[00:41:27] You'll never see her without makeup to Courtney's feed. Who's now doing photo dumps, which I've heard is the death of Instagram. Like now that people are doing photo dumps, it's basically kind of what killed Facebook is where people could start doing albums and doing photo dumps and albums. This is now happening on Instagram, where it's not filtered.

[00:41:47] It's not even good composition. They're not really concerned with how it affects their feed. So I've noticed her doing that where she'll dump just 10 photos of like a parking lot. You know, for example, kind of love it, kinda hate it. Right. You know, I love an aesthetic. I love a vibe, but I also think that this is the vibe.

[00:42:09] Like the vibe now is a parking lot. Right. It's just kind of being too cool to care about keeping it filtered, keeping it vibey, keeping it on point on brand. Right. But that's becoming the brand. So I do think it is this wave back to authenticity, or it could be the last nail in the coffin. We'll see. Time will tell.

[00:42:37] I also am finding that, I'm really into like sub stocks lately and Patreon. So like again, where we're creating content, where we're publishing and distributing content, I'm finding that I'm drawn to content that is more self published, then stuff that's produced by gatekeeping dinosaurs. I shouldn't say [00:43:00] dinosaurs.

[00:43:00] That's right. They might even be just gatekeepers, right? Just gatekeeper keeper.

[00:43:08] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Right. Make your own

[00:43:11] Kathleen Shannon: side. You get to make your own rules and you then own it. Like you own. What's coming behind that gate. Right. You're being compensated versus the platform being compensated. So I'm really in a sub stack.

[00:43:25] I'm really into Patreon. I feel like people are being more themselves than ever again. It feels like the early days of blogging what's happening in newsletters right now, whether that's curated lists or, and feeds or, more personal essays. So like one of my favorite sub stacks right now is Kelly Oxford. Do you follow her at all?

[00:43:44] Emily Thompson: No, but what is,

[00:43:45] Kathleen Shannon: she's got a newsletter. She's got a newsletter now on substack. I really like it. I follow also quite a few food writers who have newsletters. And so they're combining stuff like personal writing with recipes, what does that sound like?

[00:44:03] Emily Thompson: Old-school food blog. So I'm here for it.

[00:44:07] I love to even going into this evolutionary part of it, I feel like back in the day, those that like you started blogging, or that was really kind of the only way to share content. I guess you could do a newsletter newsletter or a blog back in the day you were doing that because you just had something you wanted to share

[00:44:27] Kathleen Shannon: or even my space.

[00:44:28] Oh yeah. People were sharing their own music. Like that was an early social media platform that wasn't inundated with advertising and people are sharing their own content.

[00:44:40] Emily Thompson: It's funny. I hadn't quite thought of that one. So creating this content, but one of the things that the growing internet has given us is the ability to be paid for it.

[00:44:49] Like back in the day, you couldn't be paid for a newsletter. No one had figured out how to make that work or paid a blog or whatever it may be, or be paid to blog, by the people who were reading. [00:45:00]

[00:45:00] Kathleen Shannon: Exactly. You're being paid for it via opportunities. So you're maybe getting a cookbook deal or your Lily Allen on my space making music and you get a record deal.

[00:45:10] So it, there is this, like it's still is going back to traditional media, which is interesting. I hadn't even thought about that. It's like getting paid in traditional ways with this wedge of a non-traditional entrance.

[00:45:25] Emily Thompson: Yeah. Yes, for sure. So it's the internet has developed, has given us a way to be paid individually for, or be paid by our readers or consumers, I guess, for the content that we're creating.

[00:45:37] If you're just there to create content, these platforms have been built in a way that allow you to create content for the service of, you know, whatever else you're doing. If you have a service that you're providing, or if you're selling a product or whatever, it may be. And then there are still is. And thank God.

[00:45:55] This is like become more normalized and mainstream this idea of working with brand partners to create content. Because as I said earlier, back in the day, you were talking to a celebrity. If you were talking to someone who was blogging as a sponsored blogger, right? Like that was too cool for school, these days.

[00:46:15] And if you were trying to get into that, how hard was it? Because so few brands understood that it was beneficial to partner with bloggers back in the day for creating

[00:46:27] Kathleen Shannon: that's where even faking it, like pretending like sponsored when in fact we were not, were just really selling. Whatever we like.

[00:46:39] Emily Thompson: Indeed.

[00:46:40] But now almost every large brand has some sort of creator or advertising budget, right. For working with bloggers or Instagrammers or podcasters or whatever it may be for, for sponsoring content. And so that's been more normalized, however, they're sort of a con to this and that,[00:47:00]

[00:47:02] Kathleen Shannon: which is that you cannot post without someone asking you where you bought

[00:47:05] Emily Thompson: your theme. Oh yeah. That or you can not consume without being sold to. Right one way or the other, every Instagram and not every obviously Astros everywhere, everyone. But every Instagram, every blog, post, every podcast guilty, like all the things you consume it, you're going to get sold something.

[00:47:29] And that y'all is marketing America.

[00:47:32] Kathleen Shannon: And I'll tell you what, I wrestle with it back to the performance enhancing drugs. It's like, if people are going to be asking me where I buy all my stuff anyway, should I get paid for it? Should I just go ahead and get paid? Or do I move into a cabin in the middle of the woods where I'm not paying taxes growing my

[00:47:53] Emily Thompson: own feet and also not wearing really nice

[00:47:55] Kathleen Shannon: shoes.

[00:47:56] I like wildly vacillate between the two, like, should I get paid and basically live like. Live like I have a sugar daddy or

[00:48:07] Emily Thompson: a big branch sugar daddy. Right. Or do you just take care of yourself, food and all? Right. I mean, that is kind of the question. It's something that, you know, I stopped doing my personal Instagram years ago.

[00:48:21] And just, I was burned out. I didn't want to, I had nothing worth sharing at that point. At least I felt so. And I've had a really hard time picking it back up, but I've actually had the urge to pick it back up later, just for the purpose of just sharing something, not to sell or to like, you know, fulfill on a contractual obligation or any of those things, but just to share something, am I doing it?

[00:48:45] No, I have too many other pieces of content I need to create. But will we ever just be able to engage with content on the internet in a way that is just purely for fun? [00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Kathleen Shannon: Well, what's interesting is that I have used my Instagram in that way. I have never sold anything other than my own stuff. And even then I rarely share anything about Being Boss.

[00:49:13] Like whenever I still own Being Boss or even braid on my personal Instagram, unless it's maybe a design that I'm really proud of, but I've definitely kind of divorced my personal and professional. Whenever there used to be such a blend and an overlap, I share personally on Instagram and I felt less and less inclined to do it because of the influencer culture.

[00:49:34] And because everyone's selling something and if you're not being sold to then you're selling something, right. Or people assuming that I'm selling something, someone call me an influencer the other day. And I was like, I'm not getting paid for this. And that's what it means to be an influencer. Like great.

[00:49:50] If I'm influencing you to be yourself and to show up as you are, and I don't know whatever, but. Even filter is like, let's talk about that. Everyone's putting a filter on their face and that's influencing the masses to get Botox, which I do, you know, people to do. Like we're being, we're all being influenced.

[00:50:14] I don't know that that's the problem. Anyway. I almost want to say like cut all that out because I don't even really know what I'm saying.

[00:50:20] Emily Thompson: It's fine. Just ramble it out. No, the overlap of pros and cons here is never ending, right? Like I, I, no

[00:50:30] Kathleen Shannon: I've had the desire to do lately. Sorry. I just keep going.

[00:50:34] Emily Thompson: I don't know.

[00:50:35] What, what do you want to do?

[00:50:37] Kathleen Shannon: I know, I want people to know, like whenever, whenever a lot of people interrupt each other on podcasts is because one, I knew that you weren't necessarily going anywhere with that. I'm going to lose it. If I don't say, say I've had the urge to just wake up and start writing in the morning again, to just write without.

[00:50:56] Sharon. Yeah. You know, so like the capturing and shaping part. Yeah. Just to even feel like I'm living a life worth living. Like that's what I love about capturing and shaping and sharing is that it helps me punctuate my life with memories. So they feel like I've done something. So I'm not living in a Groundhog day.

[00:51:14] Work and capitalism and parenting and advertising all the themes. Yeah, it's exhausting. So if I'm just in my own Google doc, CEO, and I say, Google doc, son of a bitch, Google, even Google is like infiltrating my,

[00:51:34] Emily Thompson: I get a pen and paper, Kathleen pen and paper. I will say, I am not sharing on Instagram, but I have started taking photos again in a way that I haven't since before burnout, because in similarly we're like, I don't want to share it, but I do want to capture.

[00:51:49] I want to remember, I went to, you know, keep this catalog of, of memories. Like I used to, I used to be so great about just sort of taking really cool photos and it always gave me, like, I knew I was living a beautiful life because literally it was like right there in my photo feed. Right. Not overly edited and some filters, of course, you got to really balance those colors out, but, But that for me was always just such a treat to look back and see this proof that like I am living what I love.

[00:52:22] Right. And so I have gotten back to taking photos again, I'm not sharing them, have nowhere to put them, not probably not going to, but they're there for me. And I will say I've taken much joy from that.

[00:52:33] Kathleen Shannon: You know, this, this really has me thinking just about, maybe this episode is actually just about creativity, you know, and it really is about, we don't have to monetize everything.

[00:52:45] We don't need a deal. We don't need, we don't need other people to give us permission. You know? Like, so for example, I

[00:52:52] Emily Thompson: do is in fact, whenever you do, that's when things get in. Yeah, right. That is totally give you are tying the content that you're creating to your brand. Oh my God. Literally the number of small business, small local businesses that I have not bought from because they take their personal antics to their business accounts.

[00:53:11] Like they're creating their personal content on those business accounts. Like I'm not supporting your business just because you've just shared, just because you did it, not even what your opinion is it because you cross that line. And also probably the opinion, but I

[00:53:26] Kathleen Shannon: completely disagree with this flip side.

[00:53:30] I love supporting content creators, who I know that their personal values align with mine. So there is the flip side to that. Like whenever people are sharing. They're a small family or that they're into social justice initiatives or that they are, you know, like one of my favorite restaurants here in Detroit Baobab, like, you know, it's a family that came from Africa and they're just trying to share their food with Detroit, you know, like, yes, I want to hear about where you're from and I want to support you because of who you are and your food is delicious.

[00:54:05] Right. So I do love a blend. I love thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing if you're an asshole. So now I know not to support you

[00:54:16] Emily Thompson: and that, and that I don't, it's something that just sort of grinds my gears. I can't do it. But I think like when you are creating content in conjunction with some sort of money making situation, Right.

[00:54:28] Whatever that may be. That's when things get sticky, I think there is those purity just showing up and creating content for the sake of creating content and sharing, whatever it is that you're wanting to share. Which is kind of where this evolution of things is. Is happening right

[00:54:44] Kathleen Shannon: where this is why I want to come back to Being Boss all the time without being an owner of it.

[00:54:49] I'm like, can I just come on to be a boss and shoot the shit with you and podcasts without having zero responsibility for making money for those things. So that responsibility, I don't even want to get paid.

[00:55:03] Emily Thompson: The responsibility piece I feel is one of the biggest sort of points of evolution of content creation, how we've all started taking money for the content we create.

[00:55:12] And one way or another is that now there is a pile of responsibility that we all have to take for it. Right. And whether like, do you know the business ethics and practices of those shoes that you're wearing, or that lip gloss that you just shared or, you know, whatever the deal that you just made with the brand, who knows all the things.

[00:55:34] Kathleen Shannon: Like, oh my God, to what am I might really like the way that Nike aligns itself with Colin Kaepernick, for example,

[00:55:41] Emily Thompson: but are they paying their assistance?

[00:55:43] Well, exactly.

[00:55:44] Kathleen Shannon: Like, I may not love, like, I think that there have been some questionable production practices. I know that they're hot. Right? You notice it's like to what? And I remember, I think I've even shared this on the podcast before being called out. Whenever I shared a recipe, [00:56:00] once that had Keene won it and someone was like, well, what about the exploitation of the Keno farmers?

[00:56:04] And he's like, oh my God, I cannot be perfect in my consumption of all the things, because guess what? There's a problem with everything. Absolutely ever, especially if you're looking for it. So earlier, that actually makes me, reminds me, you know, I just want to be more enthusiastic about sharing the things that I love than being negative or critical about the things that I hate.

[00:56:27] That's something that's really come out of the past couple of years for me, both in what I'm creating and what I'm consuming, because I found myself falling into a very dark place of cynicism and negativity, because there's a lot to be mad about in the world. And trust me, I am mad about it, but I'm poisoning myself whenever it's completely consuming how I show up as a creative.

[00:56:53] And I cannot show up that way anymore, which means I don't want to talk about Spotify. [00:57:00]

[00:57:01] Emily Thompson: Not anymore. I know we did it.

[00:57:04] Kathleen Shannon: I did it. I did it, but I guess that's just to illustrate that. I'm concerned about these things. I'm thinking about these things, but I still want to create, I want to be a creative and I want to consume creative through the lens of, okay,

[00:57:21] where's the good, where's the good. And where can I elevate the good and where can I create the good.

[00:57:28] Emily Thompson: And where can I share this with people who see it, who see the good that's sort of where I want to take this. Next is one of the ways that content creation has evolved over the past decade. Plus is that before you.

[00:57:43] You had a magic space, alive journal, whatever it may be. There was a blog. At some point you could be on Facebook and then Twitter and then YouTube, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, right, and now we have all of these options and it's not just a small group of like tech savvy creatives on, in this space anymore.

[00:58:00] It's your aunts and your uncles and your weird neighbor down the street. And literally every single person has access to this content. And so what I see a lot of people doing, and you should be, if you're not already is leaving the masses. To go find the places where you feel great creating the content that you are here to create sharing whatever it is, whether it's all of the affiliate links for every book that you've ever read, because you are a total bookworm or you are sharing content around the thing that you were creating and selling, or you are just like purely sharing some stories that you've written or your opinions on some political shit that needs your opinion shared whatever

[00:58:44] it may be. One of the ways that I see the internet evolving that I really love is people just showing up with their people in those like little finite places. And so maybe that is behind. Right. Maybe it is a Patrion or a sub stack or for us as the Being Boss community. I'm not on Instagram, I'm lightly on Twitter.

[00:59:04] Cause I think it's a funny place sometimes. But you know where I'm showing

[00:59:08] Kathleen Shannon: you, even in your text message,

[00:59:09] I've got a Marco polo. You, if I'm going to get ahold of you, which is actually interesting, right? I cannot text you, but I can Marco polo you.

[00:59:20] Emily Thompson: I am religious with my Margo polos. I will not look at my text messages for weeks, for weeks and weeks.

[00:59:28] So you find the places, but like also isn't that even like a, a cause of what word? I have 14 apps on my phone that I have people coming at me in every day. Right. So I have the one or two places where I am engaging and that's what I see other people doing as well. I think, you know, at Being Bosses, definitely the community.

[00:59:49] That's where I. I'm not, I'm not in my Instagram lives or like doing reels or any of those things I'm showing up in the community and I love it there. I was sharing with a [01:00:00] friend the other day. I was like, cause y'all have opinions. Y'all hear me getting heated over here. I have so many opinions and things that I feel like I need to say, I'm not going to share most of it here on the podcast.

[01:00:11] It's too big, plain and simple. I'm just not going to, I can't tweet it because that's a shit storm. A hundred percent. I've seen it all happen. But I do have small groups of people, whether it's in the community or in the C-suite or my Marco polo groups or whatever, it may be that I'm sharing those things.

[01:00:30] And, and I feel like that's even sort of another point of evolution in that because everyone is here on the internet, consuming, all the things, you're getting opinions from every single side. If you want to create content and just feel good about it and not spend the rest of your life, filtering every sort of incoming issue, find your place.

[01:00:51] You don't need to be everywhere. You just need to find the place where you can access your people and share what you want to share. [01:01:00]

[01:01:00] Kathleen Shannon: And on the flip side of that, I would say you don't have to be consuming everything. This has been reveling story for me that I don't have to beyond every platform. I don't have to listen to every podcast you can pick and choose, you know?

[01:01:16] So maybe you go through your Instagram feed and unfollow the things that don't make you feel good, or that don't inspire you. You can still use these platforms that are even problematic, like Instagram or Spotify or whatever to consume the stuff that makes you feel good. That inspires you. That inspires you to create your own content.

[01:01:38] You can pick up a book, you can read it, you can curate your own bookshelf. You know, so I would just say, think about the consumption side of things, as well as someone who consumes a lot of media, and a lot of content it's really important to protect your energy and to protect your own space and like what's happening inside your own brain, by being careful about what your.[01:02:00]

[01:02:00] Putting in there

[01:02:01] Emily Thompson: is actually reminds me of an exercise in the Being Boss book, Kathleen. Right. In I think the mindset or maybe boundaries actually think it's in the boundaries chapter. We talk about what gives you energy and what drains your energy. I think if anyone is sort of experiencing the situation where like you're getting sucked into Instagram, right?

[01:02:22] Or you have a pile of books that you really want to get to, but you can't quite make the time or whatever. It may be, sit down and make a list of when it comes to content creation and content consumption. What gives you energy and what drains you energy or what drains your energy. And I think if you can just literally put it in those like sort of binary terms in that way of like, this is making me feel great, and this is making me feel like shit, you can gain so much clarity around where you're showing up.

[01:02:52] I can't consume podcast. Y'all I can't, I try, I try all the time. I will load up a queue, get in the car. And like someone just starts talking at me whenever I could have a little bit of brain space. And I can't even, how do y'all listen to me?

[01:03:11] I don't get it right. But I will read a book all day long. And part of the reason why I don't listen to podcasts is because I'm prioritizing reading books. And so just like you would prioritize anything in your life, your marketing efforts, where you need to spend your time tomorrow, whatever, what you want to eat for dinner, you can do the same thing with where you are creating and consuming content so that you can show up in the places that you want to show up and you can learn, or, you know, feel engaged in whatever ways you most learn and feel engaged.

[01:03:48] Kathleen Shannon: That's all I've got, I'm done. This was not, you know, it's just funny because like, I feel like this was not a perfect conversation, but it's, it's a podcasting conversation, right? It's a pout it's what's on our mind.

[01:04:07] Emily Thompson: It's about,

[01:04:09] it's about. Way of doing that, we both feel passionately about, right? Like we have both been well you've literally, we've both literally created careers around this idea of capturing, shaping and sharing right.

[01:04:25] Content. There has

[01:04:28] Kathleen Shannon: been, we've gotten paid in lots of different ways for it to so many ways. Lots of different opportunities, lots of different outcomes, some good, some bad, and a lot of failures. Yeah. Some do, as we're talking about this, I mean, I hate the image of rolling a 20 sided die for any of you DNA nerds down there.

[01:04:48] Okay. It's almost like rolling, you know, this huge dice. And I feel like we're touching on like one facet of this dice to be on brand, maybe like a crystal, you know, crystal rolling the crystal we're on one facets and one side of it. Right. And you could turn it different ways and see. See all of it through a different lens.

[01:05:11] Right? So that's why this conversation feels imperfect because there's no right. Or there's no right way to create content or to consume content. You just have to consider it and look at it from different angles and be intentional. That's all we're asking is just to put a little bit more thought into it, into how you're creating and how you're consuming and do what's right for you.

[01:05:34] Emily Thompson: Yes. I think actually then intention piece is sort of the underlying thread throughout this entire thing. Right. I think intention was missing or misaligned throughout the entire Spotify Joe Rogan situation. For sure. I think, I think that is a given and I think that's why things have landed sort of where they are.

[01:05:55] I am so interested to see what happens over the rest of his contract terms, because it's not forever. Y'all, he'll be off of Spotify at some point. And so like intention I think was missing, has probably been missing for years of podcasting. For us, I believe that is what has always sort of given us a leg up is we have been so intentional with what we've created and how we've shown up.

[01:06:22] And we're teaching you guys how to do the same. And I think as the world of content creation just continues to expand and open, which kind of blows our mind because whenever I think about how expansive it is now compared to where it was 15 years ago, like my brain can't hold it it's wild to me. So whenever I think about what happens next, you hold the metaverse still get me tickled on that one.

[01:06:49] But it is intention that I think is going to keep us all from losing our shit along the way, and like losing our collective shit as like humans showing up in this sort of brave new world. I I'm still here. I love it. I love creating content. I love thinking about content and curating it and creating it and sharing it with all of you.

[01:07:10] But also just generally know that I also think we've been able to do what we do because we are filtering and editing and doing things through the lens of our values. And that's what makes me feel good about the work that we do. Even if we show up with hiccups, we know how to like, make amends and follow through because the intentions are.

[01:07:37] Kathleen Shannon: And that makes me think about it with every coaching and consulting session that I do whenever one of my clients is having an issue it's because they feel like they should be doing something versus loving doing it. Like they feel like they should write and publish a book versus loving writing it.

[01:07:54] Like we loved writing our book together. Right. We never felt like this should be something that we aspire to. We started a podcast because we love talking to each other and I love podcasts. I love consuming them. I love creating them. So let that be a driving factor. Like if you don't entirely know what your values are, just if you love doing it, let that be enough.

[01:08:18] And if you don't love doing it, let that be enough of a reason to stop.

[01:08:23] Emily Thompson: Yeah, for sure. Otherwise go create some content. Join in one way or the other, but I love the idea of doing it through the lens of what you love for sure, because I don't love consuming them, but I do love creating podcasts, a ton.

[01:08:40] Perfect. Kathleen, this has been a treat.

[01:08:45] Kathleen Shannon: It's always so good to join you on the show.

[01:08:47] Emily Thompson: I'm glad that you were like let's let's I don't want to talk about it, but let's talk about it. It has been an interesting lesson

[01:08:53] Kathleen Shannon: and let's record it and publish it.

[01:08:57] Emily Thompson: All right then last, but definitely never least. What's making you feel most boss these days.

[01:09:04] Kathleen Shannon: I'm having a rough day. I do not feel boss at all. I feel so scattered and disjointed and grumpy. So what's making me feel boss.

[01:09:16] Emily Thompson: May I, may I, offer up that tracksuit? Yeah.

[01:09:23] Kathleen Shannon: My track suit. My matchy-matchy tracksuit. It's making me feel like a different kind of boss.

[01:09:30] Emily Thompson: Some like golden girls vibe happening here too.

[01:09:33] Yeah.

[01:09:35] Kathleen Shannon: It's the pianos meets golden girl.

[01:09:41] Emily Thompson: I love it.

[01:09:42] Kathleen Shannon: That's making me feel boss. You did a good job. Okay. So what's making me feel boss. Probably my morning yoga practice. It feels so goopy saying that. Yeah, but just centering myself, bringing my thoughts and energy back into my body. Makes me feel boss. How about you? What's making you feel boss lately.

[01:10:03] Emily Thompson: Well, hope tomorrow I will find out if I'm actually boss at this, but I recently negotiated a lease and like

[01:10:13] Kathleen Shannon: showing the secret that you couldn't talk

[01:10:15] Emily Thompson: about. It's the secret that I could, and I may not be able to talk about it yet. I shouldn't really probably talking about, by the time this goes live, it'll be a done deal.

[01:10:23] I'm sure. But I felt really boss last week, whenever I showed up and negotiated a lease that I would have just signed, it was not a bad lease by any means, but I also just laid out what I wanted and I find out tomorrow just how boss my boss, this was. But regardless of the outcome, it felt boss to just show up and negotiate.

[01:10:46] Kathleen Shannon: I love it. Yeah. Now you're going to have like a, another space, like your eight space,

[01:10:52] Emily Thompson: 47, I think by last count that feels boss too, more space. For commercial leases, once we sign this one, at least for the moment, and it will either let one go or add four more. We'll see.

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